Indian Weapons asking for Reservation

[p2prada]

Rafale is not a necessity its a luxury...

The exact opposite. It is more of a necessity than LCA is. The reason is as simple as we can't use the LCA over the Himalayas. We need aircraft with powerful engines to climb with heavy loads to that altitude, fly deep into enemy territory and then fly back.

As it is today, it is impossible for LCA Mk1. For LCA Mk2, it won't have the range or the payload.

Rafale can carry 9500 Kg with external fuel, LCA Mk1 can manage 3500 Kg and LCA Mk2 is planned to have 5000 Kg with fuel. Apart from that LCA needs escort, Rafale does not. So more LCAs are required for the same mission. You can say roughly an entire squadron is needed to perform the same mission where only 4 Rafales are required. That's the difference.

Rafale has a ROA of greater than 1100 Km with just internal fuel while for LCA it is 500 Km. As for range, Rafale can currently do 3800 Km+ and with CFTs it should manage around 4500 Km+. The + indicates the actual range is still classified and that it is more than the ones officially mentioned. LCA Mk2 cannot do more than 3000 Km while LCA Mk1 won't be able to do 2500 Km. LCA is not planned for CFTs. Also, the ranges for Rafale is when it is fully loaded with 4 to 6 LGBs and 4 missiles while for LCA it is just with three drop tanks and no missiles or bombs. So, actual range is even lesser. By the time it has climbed to medium altitude, the range would be even lesser.

Performance-wise, LCA Mk2 is stated to be equivalent to Mirage-2000 while Rafale is stated to be far superior to Mirage-2000.

Rafale has larger avionics bays and better avionics. LCA is not that lucky being a small aircraft.

It is as far from being a luxury and closer to being a necessity. Like I said before, if IAF loses out on Rafale the impact will be felt everywhere. If IAF loses out on LCA, there are other options, including more Rafales.

Yes Tejas should replace Migs then let them do that....You have 250 odd migs to be replaced and what on order present is close to 80 Tejas.... how do you suggest the gap is filled...

The current plan is to replace ~300 Migs with 189 Rafale and 123 LCA.

From what we know about the current plan for LCA, 4 LCA squadrons will be located in two bases in Tamil Nadu and 2 squadrons at one base in Rajasthan. And it seems likely that all of the 126 Rafales will be based in the North and the NE.

 

[p2prada]

You asked a question about Engine you have a issue with just engine imported then why dont you have same issue with A/C imported the logic is same....

Because they are not the same. The armed forces don't care who designed the weapon. They only care about two things, how good does it work and how well can it be maintained. Whether it is by DRDO or Dassault, they don't care.

So, if everything in the Rafale is made here, then it is more indigenous than weapons that are designed in India but critical parts sourced from outside the country. That's the reason why the US Army is so happy with German tank guns for the Abrams. They are not bothered by the fact that the gun is not their design.

How often will you change Engine how often rarely... but how often will you need spares like clips stablizers brackets rails etc quite often .... you cannot just groud an a/c if you dont have a single clip to be replaced....

This is for the first 100 hours. After that the engine is checked for faults. Then they fly again for another 100 hours and they check again and so on. That's when they replace those brackets, rails etc. But then after 1000 hours, the engine is overhauled. Where is it overhauled? In the US. Then it is brought back to India and mounted on the aircraft. This process repeats at least 4 times for the F-414.

But one day, unfortunately there is a small accident and a turbine blade breaks. What next? Since the engine is not made in India, they will need to send the engine or the turbine back to the US for a replacement.

One day Namo grows another pair of balls and tests nukes. That's followed by sanctions. Now, there is no one to overhaul the engines or change blades. There are no mid life upgrades and there are no consultants. There is nobody to ensure that the brackets and rails are made using the right quality and installed the right way.

The engines need to be overhauled every 1000 hours, that's roughly 6 years of flight time. So, in 6 years time the engine which wasn't overhauled falls into disrepair. Then ADA and HAL will start cannibalizing parts from older engines. Then they will run out of supplies since the part themselves will be old and worn out. This starts affecting the fleet. Maintenance and downtimes increase. LCA will start spending far too much time on the ground and far too little time in the air. Pilots who flew a lot will slowly start getting rusty and less capable because they don't get to fly a lot. The fleet begins to falter. IAF will decide that LCAs are becoming a drain on the resources and eventually loses faith in them. MLUs will be delayed or canceled, so ADA teams for LCA will be disbanded and transferred. Eventually the aircraft will be phased out at 1/3rd of worse, half the remaining life.

All this because the Americans sanctioned the heart and soul of an aircraft.

if we go with what you suggest the time you are talking is of 2025 when it will be 100% made in India that will be an era of 5th gen with fGFA and AMCa in sight in reality .... Rafale will no longer be an asset but an burden of 20b....

Aircraft are meant to be flown for 30-40 years. As explained above, we will need all sorts of support to keep them Rafales flying. If we are the ones manufacturing every part of the Rafale, then we will be the ones controlling the aircraft.

And for the next 40 years we will have to keep flying it.

Mig-21bis was inducted in the '80s and will be phased out by 2019. That's around 40 years. Rafale will be flying until 2060 in the IAF.

The reason given here is we need tech to develop AMCA fromFGFA and rafale... which is utter non sense...

once FGFA is completes AMCA will be in flow with foreign assistance if req but tot is not mandatory....

Right. You worked in an assembly line. But if you don't have an aircraft to assemble, how will you gain experience?

FGFA is a different class of aircraft meant for a very specific role.

Electronic used in Tejas are far better than others in the same lot.....

That's utter nonsense. The electronics in Tejas is stuff the westerners have been manufacturing for years now.

Most of the electronics was designed by the Israelis. We just put our rubber stamp on them. LCA's EW suite came from the Mayavi program and was designed in Israel. We are just the integrators and manufacturers. Pretty much the same as Rafale when it comes to electronics. The principle equipment on the radar is also Israeli, the T/R modules.

Saying LCA has better electronics than Rafale is an absurd statement since there is no proof or an open source information saying the same. There is no comparison matrix for anybody to come to that conclusion. As a matter of fact, even ADA officials will have no idea if LCA's electronics is better or worse than Rafale's. So internet armchair generals making such claims fall flat on the face.

SAAB wanted 51% I said major share wats the difference... i was in favour of partnership not giving any type of control..... mainly as a consultant nothing more.l.....

They wanted total control of the project. They didn't want a simple partnership or consultancy. That's why they are not part of LCA.

 

[Pulkit]

@p2prada I know its not game of money or numbers but lets make it a bit...


32 squad active with Migs included...
Minimum required 39.5
approved 44 squad...
JUST FOR SAKE TOLERANCE of 1 or 2 squad...

Phase out of Migs as you said 2019 close to 300 you said but lets say 250 only...
Phasing out will be completed by 2019 no migs after that correct... or let say they again extend it till 2021....

Now what we have on table no mk2 no fgfa no AMCA...

Sukhoi ,Rafale,MK1...

by 2020 max rafale inducted will be close to 18+12+12+12=54 upper level 60
MK1=50 thats wat ordered as of now
SAY=50 MORE SUKHOI...

now maths...

No Migs Squad down to 22 squads of upgraded A/C+new aircrafts....close to 30 squad ....

now lets change the senario
No rafale

we can have another assembly line fast track Mk2 as more funds and even fast track FGFA(lets keep it out still)
50 MORE SUKHOI...
150 mk1
60 mk2 by 2020
now they size of squad will be 22 squads of upgraded A/C+new aircrafts....close to 35 squad....still below the minimum level but with this there will be enough money to support fgfa and amca so that by 2025 both are in mass production...



we have life of an a/c for 30 years roughly and our target of 44 squad is far away so more tejas wont harm .... but all money on rafale will....






another number game....
4 rafale can do what 21 Tejas can.... hmmm okay .... so roughly 5 tejas per rafale....

rafale is not stealth so what will happen if i see 21 a/c instead of 4 on my radar ..... I have to send more aircrafts to counter ....
you can hve sukhoi mainly for china for deep peneteration etc etc....

mirage jags mk1 mk2 combo at pak side.... now lets see they have f16 thats it.....


21a/c with range limited but huge payload far more than 4 rafale.... mk2 will be deep enough be rest assured....




End of your number and money game ..


continued........

 

[Pulkit]

@p2prada

you cant rely on a nation for engine how can u rely on one for an entire aircraft ,....
one sanctions imposed then there will be no support and why do you think that by then we wont have a engine of our own...

Kaveri was not a success but wasnt even a complete failure....


behaviousof armed forces who just want to be a consumer and nothing more is one of our issues....
Client has some responsibilities and they have to perform there duties....
this attitude also leads to delays and failures... Improper methodology in the field of design an dtech....

as you say we need to gain experience by building a/c then why not start with the one at home.... start building them in good numbers it will boost production and provide experience to manpower to build better...

U talk of western what about south Asians who has such electronics... Paks no Chinese not really all there tech is russian based copied and it cannot be better than original///


I am not replacing rafale with Tejas mk2 thats not possible two different A/C i just want Tejas to have a better position....I dont want it like pakis.... after FOC only induction... but Rafale will be waste of money a luxury...
All the exp required for AMCa can be gained from FGFA and Tejas Mk2 ..... tell me what rafale will add which consultanst cnnot provide....


189 Rafale and 123 LCA. i ddnt find any source to state that... 126 rafale and 100 tejas was wat i read ... lets wait what govt decides on rafale

 

[p2prada]

@p2prada I know its not game of money or numbers but lets make it a bit...


32 squad active with Migs included...
Minimum required 39.5
approved 44 squad...
JUST FOR SAKE TOLERANCE of 1 or 2 squad...

Incorrect numbers except for min.

34 squads are active, will reduce to 26 in 2019. Approved is 42.

another number game....
4 rafale can do what 21 Tejas can.... hmmm okay .... so roughly 5 tejas per rafale....

rafale is not stealth so what will happen if i see 21 a/c instead of 4 on my radar ..... I have to send more aircrafts to counter ....

Nobody is going to send 21 aircraft at once.

21a/c with range limited but huge payload far more than 4 rafale.... mk2 will be deep enough be rest assured....

How about comparing 21 Rafale with 21 LCA?

End of your number and money game ..

None of it made sense.

 

[p2prada]

@p2prada

you cant rely on a nation for engine how can u rely on one for an entire aircraft ,....

It is extremely easy. Make everything at home. You don't get the point. It is so effing simple. When you make everything at home you are not relying on anybody.

For LCA we are reliant on US, for Rafale we won't be reliant on France if they sanction us. That's the purpose of MRCA.

one sanctions imposed then there will be no support and why do you think that by then we wont have a engine of our own...

Because we don't plan on making engines that will fit into LCA. The project itself has been canceled.

I am not replacing rafale with Tejas mk2 thats not possible two different A/C i just want Tejas to have a better position....I dont want it like pakis.... after FOC only induction... but Rafale will be waste of money a luxury...

LCA Mk2 will be inducted when it is undergoing test flights. ADA is experimenting with concurrency like it is for the F-35. They plan on inducting Mk2 before IOC is achieved.

All the exp required for AMCa can be gained from FGFA and Tejas Mk2 ..... tell me what rafale will add which consultanst cnnot provide....

The purpose of Rafale is to provide a major capability boost to the IAF, something not even 1000 LCAs can do.

The purpose of Rafale is to provide the experience necessary to build both FGFA and AMCA. LCA is using older manufacturing techniques. FGFA construction is set to begin well after Rafale manufacturing has started. MKI production itself is expected to end in 2019.

Do you know that in France, the entire assembly of Rafale is done by robots? There are only a dozen or so people working in their assembly line. For MKI there are, I think, 300-350 people working for the same number of aircraft.

And as I said before, Rafale will be more indigenous than LCA. The purpose of designing your own aircraft is to build everything at home, including the engines, not just design it. This way all of the aircraft will be under IAF control. But with engines to be imported, LCA is more of an imported aircraft than Rafale is.

I don't understand why people can't understand this.

The same way, T-90 is also more indigenous than Arjun because more of the T-90 is made in India than Arjun is. Just because Arjun is designed in India doesn't mean it can have the same kind of product support as T-90 when half the stuff inside is imported. Germany will sanction the engines the minute India goes to war. And the sanctions will continue well after it. They actually have a policy of not selling to countries that have a potential of going to war. They only made an exception for MRCA deal.

189 Rafale and 123 LCA. i ddnt find any source to state that... 126 rafale and 100 tejas was wat i read ... lets wait what govt decides on rafale

You should read more and from better sources.

126 Rafales are on contract. According to DPP '06 we can have 50% increase in the numbers. That's 63. Looking at the poor state of the IAF, it is reasonable to expect 126+63 = 189 will be inducted.

As for LCA, 40 Mk1s will be ordered and IAF has planned for 83 LCA Mk2. That brings the number to 123 LCAs. The total number of LCAs to be ordered is 123 by IAF and 8 Mk1 and 45 Mk2 by IN. Total = 176 LCAs. HAL passed an indent to manufacture 178 LCA Mk1s and Mk2s in total.

Any future orders will be dependent on how the project itself progresses.

The fact is LCA Mk2 is still a paper plane. So, I don't get how people want to actually compare it to a Rafale that has been flying for over two and a half decades. ADA themselves are not sure about the future of LCA. That's why they have ordered only 8 F-414 engines to date.

 

[Pulkit]

Incorrect numbers except for min.

34 squads are active, will reduce to 26 in 2019. Approved is 42.



Nobody is going to send 21 aircraft at once.



How about comparing 21 Rafale with 21 LCA?



None of it made sense.

Anything what you said also made no sense ...
Our active aircrafts % at a given point of time is what say 60% if it pleases you ...
that means out of 126 at a given time only 75-80 will be available...
how will it boost iaf i dont know,,,

rafale could be used or be of any aid for AMCA but for FGFA it has literally no use....by the time production of rafale starts in India fgfa will be ready for mass production///


u say approved is 42 if we just keep replacing and dont add more then how are u planning to attain that number...


spending all money on rafale wont help.....


go through these threads and respond if you already havent


http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/defence-strategic-issues/61655-tejas-mk2-equivalant-rafale.html
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...61768-scrapping-rafale-deal-now-good-bad.html

 

[p2prada]

Anything what you said also made no sense ...

Of course. Since this is the only forum where people claim LCA Mk2 is as capable as Rafale, and those people have no idea what they are talking about.

In the real world, LCA is as good as stuff that was out in the early '90s, but with newer avionics.

Our active aircrafts % at a given point of time is what say 60% if it pleases you ...
that means out of 126 at a given time only 75-80 will be available...
how will it boost iaf i dont know,,,

Rafale's availability is over 95% in the ALA. MKI's availability is over 80% in IAF. It is LCA's availability that is more suspect.

More importantly, LCA's trainer versions may or may not be as capable as the fighter version, but the two seat Rafale is more capable as a fighter than the single seat Rafale.

So, more of the Rafales are available to fight in comparison to the same number of LCAs.

rafale could be used or be of any aid for AMCA but for FGFA it has literally no use....by the time production of rafale starts in India fgfa will be ready for mass production///

FGFA's production should start in 2019-20, HAL is already building the production facilities for Rafale. By the time the first FGFA is inducted in 2022, all 126 Rafales will be ready. So, as usual you are clueless.

u say approved is 42 if we just keep replacing and dont add more then how are u planning to attain that number...

That's the problem with LCA. If LCA was ready in 1999 or even 2006, we wouldn't have faced this problem. If LCA was ready in 2006, IAF would have immediately inducted around 200-300 LCAs and replaced all the old and Bison type Mi-21s. MKI numbers would have remained at 230.

IAF went without any inductions between 1990 and 2000. And only one type's induction between 2000 and today, that is MKI. We should have actually been inducting MKI and LCA together side-by-side, that was IAF's original plan. But now it looks like LCA and Rafale/FGFA will be inducted side-by-side.

What's funny is the Russians developed the Su-30 at the same time as India developed LCA Mk1. Then they further developed Su-30 into Su-30MKI and then started production while we were test flying the LCA for the first time. Then we started production and LCA was still under test flights. Then MKI production finished half way and LCA hadn't even achieved IOC. Now, MKI's fourth phase production is ending and LCA still hasn't achieved FOC. In four years, MKI's production will end and that's when LCA's first FOC squadron will be ready. The most hilarious part in all this is while MKI's production run ends and LCA Mk2 undergoes flight tests the Russians would have inducted at least 50-60 PAKFAs. By the time LCA Mk2's production ends, the Russians would have already started production of unmanned PAKFA. Through the entire LCA development cycle, the Russians would have jumped 2 generations. What makes you think China is waiting? And what makes you think IAF will wait?

spending all money on rafale wont help.....

It is of immense help. Look, you are clueless. You don't know what you are talking about. If you accept that then we can move ahead.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/defence-strategic-issues/61655-tejas-mk2-equivalant-rafale.html
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...61768-scrapping-rafale-deal-now-good-bad.html

It's a whole lot of bullshit in two threads. I can't go there, else I will get banned. Like I said, my goal is to reach 10000 posts. Then I'm off. You can have those little threads and live in your fantasies all you want. While you are doing that always remember the Su-30-LCA-PAKFA story.

 

[Pulkit]

if I not incorrect then ragale around 18 will be inducted in 2018 initially ... and then manufacturing will start in INDIA...so according to you Indian will be able to manufacture 108 within 4 years ... 25+ every year waaaao thats some thing....

FGFA will be there in 2022 as you said then there will be sukhoi FGFA AMCA(In sight) then with Tejas which you dont treat as fighter so i hope u will agree with modern electronic and composite structure it will be better than our neighbours aircraft...if not rafale.... i am talking so MK2 as of now...

yes Tejas is a decade late agreed but in this decade our airforce has also updated its requirement which were incorporated in design with fusion of modern electronics.....

rafales availability will need to se so for tejas...

for one rafale u can hve 3 tejas which means 375 tejas(mk1+mk2) inplace of 126 a/c now how does that appear...

with FGFa Sukhoi by 2022 we will need rafale as we will have airsuperiority with FGFA and Sukhoi and we will only need to provide support for them which can be easily done by Tejas....


Just going by your reasoning lets go for only sukhoi and no rafale.. lets put all money on Sukhoi on any day its better than rafale.....for us....

Of course. Since this is the only forum where people claim LCA Mk2 is as capable as Rafale, and those people have no idea what they are talking about.

In the real world, LCA is as good as stuff that was out in the early '90s, but with newer avionics.



Rafale's availability is over 95% in the ALA. MKI's availability is over 80% in IAF. It is LCA's availability that is more suspect.

More importantly, LCA's trainer versions may or may not be as capable as the fighter version, but the two seat Rafale is more capable as a fighter than the single seat Rafale.

So, more of the Rafales are available to fight in comparison to the same number of LCAs.



FGFA's production should start in 2019-20, HAL is already building the production facilities for Rafale. By the time the first FGFA is inducted in 2022, all 126 Rafales will be ready. So, as usual you are clueless.



That's the problem with LCA. If LCA was ready in 1999 or even 2006, we wouldn't have faced this problem. If LCA was ready in 2006, IAF would have immediately inducted around 200-300 LCAs and replaced all the old and Bison type Mi-21s. MKI numbers would have remained at 230.

IAF went without any inductions between 1990 and 2000. And only one type's induction between 2000 and today, that is MKI. We should have actually been inducting MKI and LCA together side-by-side, that was IAF's original plan. But now it looks like LCA and Rafale/FGFA will be inducted side-by-side.

What's funny is the Russians developed the Su-30 at the same time as India developed LCA Mk1. Then they further developed Su-30 into Su-30MKI and then started production while we were test flying the LCA for the first time. Then we started production and LCA was still under test flights. Then MKI production finished half way and LCA hadn't even achieved IOC. Now, MKI's fourth phase production is ending and LCA still hasn't achieved FOC. In four years, MKI's production will end and that's when LCA's first FOC squadron will be ready. The most hilarious part in all this is while MKI's production run ends and LCA Mk2 undergoes flight tests the Russians would have inducted at least 50-60 PAKFAs. By the time LCA Mk2's production ends, the Russians would have already started production of unmanned PAKFA. Through the entire LCA development cycle, the Russians would have jumped 2 generations. What makes you think China is waiting? And what makes you think IAF will wait?



It is of immense help. Look, you are clueless. You don't know what you are talking about. If you accept that then we can move ahead.



It's a whole lot of bullshit in two threads. I can't go there, else I will get banned. Like I said, my goal is to reach 10000 posts. Then I'm off. You can have those little threads and live in your fantasies all you want. While you are doing that always remember the Su-30-LCA-PAKFA story.

 

[p2prada]

if I not incorrect then ragale around 18 will be inducted in 2018 initially

If contract is signed this year, Rafale will be delivered by 2016 onwards and delivery will end in the beginning of 2018.

... and then manufacturing will start in INDIA...so according to you Indian will be able to manufacture 108 within 4 years ... 25+ every year waaaao thats some thing....

Yes, the plan is 20 per year and manufacturing of the 126 will take 5 years. Delivery of HAL made Rafales will begin in 2017 and first squadron will be inducted in 2019.

FGFA will be there in 2022 as you said then there will be sukhoi FGFA AMCA(In sight) then with Tejas which you dont treat as fighter so i hope u will agree with modern electronic and composite structure it will be better than our neighbours aircraft...if not rafale.... i am talking so MK2 as of now...

AMCA will be ready for production beyond 2025. First flight is expected in 2020.

yes Tejas is a decade late agreed but in this decade our airforce has also updated its requirement which were incorporated in design with fusion of modern electronics.....

The updates for LCA has nothing to do with performance. The fact that it is a light fighter is still the truth. It's ROA is 500 Km versus 1100+ Km for Rafale. Mk1 can't carry more than 3500 Kg and that's with just 2 bombs. Rafale can carry 9.5 tonnes with 4 to 6 bombs. Once CFTs are added, the bomb load will further increase. Rafale can carry Brahmos-M while LCA can't.

rafales availability will need to se so for tejas...

What you see in ALA is what you will get in IAF. The Malaysian MKMs are already at 85% availability and they are pushing for 90-95%.

for one rafale u can hve 3 tejas which means 375 tejas(mk1+mk2) inplace of 126 a/c now how does that appear...

We don't have that many pilots nor do we have that many bases. Even with 10000 LCA, 126 Rafale will still be the better option.

Look at what China's doing. There was a time when they had 10000 LCA type fighters, they are replacing those with around 2000-3000 medium and heavy fighters. They aren't buying 10000 LCAs again.

with FGFa Sukhoi by 2022 we will need rafale as we will have airsuperiority with FGFA and Sukhoi and we will only need to provide support for them which can be easily done by Tejas....

You still don't understand the fact that Rafale is like a heavy-duty truck while LCA is like a transport auto. Sukhois can't do anything if LCA itself can't carry enough or can't fly enough or fly as well as Rafale. The Himalayas requires a lot of power to climb that high and we need a lot of bombs if we are to use it against China. The two bombs LCA can carry is worthless. And half the fleet will be escorting the other half, that's entirely worthless.

For the same mission that we need 4 Rafales, we will need an entire squadron of LCA. 4 Rafales can carry 16 500 Kg LGBs. We will need 8 LCAs to carry that many. Then Rafales can also carry 4-6 BVR missiles in that configuration. LCA cannot carry any BVR missiles. So, another 8 LCAs with 16 BVR missiles are required to protect the 8 LCAs that are carrying only bombs. That's practically an entire squadron.

So, 4 Rafales are carrying 16 500 Kg LGBs and 16 BVR missiles. 16 LCAs are carrying 16 500 Kg LGBs and 16 BVR missiles. You tell me which is better.

Otoh, the 3 other units of Rafales that form the remaining squadron will be carrying 48 500 Kg LGBs along with 48 to 72 BVR missiles. Let's also not forget that Rafales can carry that load out to 2000 Km. That's the kind of capability the IAF needs against China. LCA cannot provide this capability. It is impossible.

Lesser the number of pilots to train, better is the quality of the pilots. It is far easier to train 126 pilots than it is to train 375 pilots. More so when the survivability of the pilots is secured on a superior aircraft. Meaning, they have a better chance of coming home to fight again. The LCAs will simply get picked apart by the Chinese Flankers instead.

The targets in China are very far away. LCA can't reach them. And Sukhois are needed for air dominance first, and not do what Rafale is meant to do. Or the Chinese Flankers that will number at least 1000 will kill all the LCAs before they even reach the border.

Just going by your reasoning lets go for only sukhoi and no rafale.. lets put all money on Sukhoi on any day its better than rafale.....for us....

Logically, if we could afford it, we would have a fully heavy aircraft fleet, but we don't have that much money. Neither do we have the technology that we can pick and choose. we have to go through these tender routes and JVs.

Ultimately by 2060 our fleet will only have FGFA and AMCA along with their replacements.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The former Gov`s policies which was a pro-import / pro-kickbakcs , Have caused massive blows to National defense Industry both Government as well as Private, This trend is now slowly going down with new Gov in power, Few articles >>

================>>

Historic rise in DRDO budget

Minister Arun Jaitley has massively boosted funding to the Defence Research & Development Organisation. The DRDO's capital allocation of Rs 5,975 crore, provided in February in the United Progressive Alliance's interim budget, has been hiked by almost 60 per cent to Rs 9,298 crore, the largest-ever raise in the DRDO's history.

Coming on top of the DRDO's revenue allocation of Rs 5,985 crore, the R&D budget totals up to Rs 15,283 crore, which is almost 7 per cent of the Rs 2,29,000 crore defence budget. The DRDO, which has been receiving about 5 per cent of the defence budget has long pleaded for 7-8 per cent.

Simultaneously, Mr Jaitley more than doubled the capital allocation for the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), which will be used to modernise the defence ministry's network of 41 factories that manufactures arms, ammunition and equipment for the military. The OFB's allocation of Rs 530 crore has been raised to Rs 1,207 crore.

Source : Broadsword: Historic rise in DRDO budget, no additional funds for Rafale

================>>

Nepal To Sign 1.76 billion worth Arms Deal with India

The NA in 2013 had requested India for an immediate supply of arms valued at NRs 1.76 billion.

According to local media reports, the NA is seeking to purchase more than 26,000 weapons of various kinds including several thousand Indian-made Insas rifles; more than 11 million rounds of ammunitions; bomb disposal equipment and explosives for training purpose.

He also said the NA is procuring new weapons to replace the current models, which are mostly outdated, for military trainings and joint exercises.

Source : India, Nepal To Sign Major Arms Deal Including Insas Rifles Contract


================>>

In 'Dhanush', Indian Army's Prayers Answered

The "Dhanush", with its electronic sighting and laying system for aiming at the target, is said to be a major improvement over the Bofors gun's manual system. More importantly, it is likely to be priced at 14 crore a piece, less than half the price of a similar gun made abroad.

The army has ordered 116 guns from the government's ordnance factory and increase the order to 416 pieces of artillery. the factory plans to double its manufacturing capacity from the current 18 guns a year.

Source : In 'Dhanush', Indian Army's Prayers Answered - NDTV

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IAF will buy 14 Tejas squadrons, lowering costs

Defence Minister A K Antony declared 200 Tejas fighters would eventually enter combat service. Today, that figure quietly swelled to well above 300, with the government indicating the IAF would have at least 14 Tejas squadrons.Each IAF combat squadron has 21 fighter aircraft; 14 squadrons add to 294 Tejas fighters. The 21 comprise 16 frontline, single-seat fighters, two twin-seat trainers and three reserve aircraft to make up losses in a war.

In a written statement tabled in the Lok Sabha on Monday, Antony's deputy, Jitendra Singh, stated, "The MiG-21 and MiG-27 aircrafts of the IAF have already been upgraded and currently equip 14 combat squadrons. These aircraft, however, are planned for being phased out over the next few years and will be replaced by the LCA."

Source : IAF will buy 14 Tejas squadrons, lowering costs | Business Standard News

^^ Done by former Gov, Its one of the victory for National Defense Industry of India ..


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One cannot step in and can undo decades of corruption, The import lobby will be at bottom of boots sooner or latter with their moles in Gov sector as well as in Private ..

Today Indian weapons are Looking for reservation for there survival in the Indian defense system.I am not against imports but only if we don't have an Indian alternative.

Indian First....

by Pulkit

 

[Pulkit]

Firstly you need to understand that TEJAS IS A FIGHTER AIRCRAFT...It cannot be air superiority or medium range but within its range its a deadly mean machine and with range and payload enhanced in mk2 its gonna be more deadly....
2016-2018-2019 First squad thats 21 aircraft as you said then 20 per year which takes it to 2025 for full deployment true.. and we are looking at FGFA entering services by 2020-2022 so by 2025 we will be having FGFA is good numbers with us....

Correct by the time Rafale will be produced fully AMCA will be there...

We are having plan to have entire fleet based on AMCA FGFA SUKHOI by 2035 (u said 2060 when no 4th gen will be there)then wats the ful of having a so costly 4th gen aircraft when we are gonna have two of 5th gen one 4th gen awesome aircraft MKI....

IF we use half of the money on MK1 and MK2 then we will have far larger fleet by 2025 and mk2 will fit between the role of AMCA and MK1 but Rafale will be overshadowed by AMCA.......

FYI 44 squads is allowed i confirmed it from an friend in defense services..... min of 39.5 you said 42 somewhere just recheck and let me now....

no production line in first year will be giving yo that a huge number..... therefore 20 per years from beginning is a myth.....

you cannot have all air superiority a/c you hve to maintain a balance among them.... when we say we are replacing migs by refale its foolish....
i believe u will agree that tejas is better than migs even today and it fits the role migs did .....

so lets replace migs with tejas only.... mk1+mk2......


we all want our pilots to return back home... then why is the world designing lca's?
we need LCA's for support....


who is asking to place then china centric.... they will be lethal against pakis....
jf17 thunder is even older design older avionics.....

and ofcource u will not send then against f16 never thats suicidal....


but if you hve good numbers in sky you can dominate using tejas aswell....


but you didnt answer a question i asked earlier how are we filling the numbers lost or retired we will be down to 30 squad soon????
remember number game?alone rafale cant do that

If contract is signed this year, Rafale will be delivered by 2016 onwards and delivery will end in the beginning of 2018.



Yes, the plan is 20 per year and manufacturing of the 126 will take 5 years. Delivery of HAL made Rafales will begin in 2017 and first squadron will be inducted in 2019.



AMCA will be ready for production beyond 2025. First flight is expected in 2020.



The updates for LCA has nothing to do with performance. The fact that it is a light fighter is still the truth. It's ROA is 500 Km versus 1100+ Km for Rafale. Mk1 can't carry more than 3500 Kg and that's with just 2 bombs. Rafale can carry 9.5 tonnes with 4 to 6 bombs. Once CFTs are added, the bomb load will further increase. Rafale can carry Brahmos-M while LCA can't.



What you see in ALA is what you will get in IAF. The Malaysian MKMs are already at 85% availability and they are pushing for 90-95%.



We don't have that many pilots nor do we have that many bases. Even with 10000 LCA, 126 Rafale will still be the better option.

Look at what China's doing. There was a time when they had 10000 LCA type fighters, they are replacing those with around 2000-3000 medium and heavy fighters. They aren't buying 10000 LCAs again.



You still don't understand the fact that Rafale is like a heavy-duty truck while LCA is like a transport auto. Sukhois can't do anything if LCA itself can't carry enough or can't fly enough or fly as well as Rafale. The Himalayas requires a lot of power to climb that high and we need a lot of bombs if we are to use it against China. The two bombs LCA can carry is worthless. And half the fleet will be escorting the other half, that's entirely worthless.

For the same mission that we need 4 Rafales, we will need an entire squadron of LCA. 4 Rafales can carry 16 500 Kg LGBs. We will need 8 LCAs to carry that many. Then Rafales can also carry 4-6 BVR missiles in that configuration. LCA cannot carry any BVR missiles. So, another 8 LCAs with 16 BVR missiles are required to protect the 8 LCAs that are carrying only bombs. That's practically an entire squadron.

So, 4 Rafales are carrying 16 500 Kg LGBs and 16 BVR missiles. 16 LCAs are carrying 16 500 Kg LGBs and 16 BVR missiles. You tell me which is better.

Otoh, the 3 other units of Rafales that form the remaining squadron will be carrying 48 500 Kg LGBs along with 48 to 72 BVR missiles. Let's also not forget that Rafales can carry that load out to 2000 Km. That's the kind of capability the IAF needs against China. LCA cannot provide this capability. It is impossible.

Lesser the number of pilots to train, better is the quality of the pilots. It is far easier to train 126 pilots than it is to train 375 pilots. More so when the survivability of the pilots is secured on a superior aircraft. Meaning, they have a better chance of coming home to fight again. The LCAs will simply get picked apart by the Chinese Flankers instead.

The targets in China are very far away. LCA can't reach them. And Sukhois are needed for air dominance first, and not do what Rafale is meant to do. Or the Chinese Flankers that will number at least 1000 will kill all the LCAs before they even reach the border.



Logically, if we could afford it, we would have a fully heavy aircraft fleet, but we don't have that much money. Neither do we have the technology that we can pick and choose. we have to go through these tender routes and JVs.

Ultimately by 2060 our fleet will only have FGFA and AMCA along with their replacements.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Let me put some clarity into facts =====>>

1 >

Conspicuously, no additional funds were allocated for arms deals being negotiated, like the nearly $17 billion purchase of 126 Rafale fighters from French company, Dassault.

Instead, most of the tiny spending rise went to the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO), the government agency that develops indigenous weapons systems for the military.

Given that approximately 90 per cent of the military's capital allocation is pre-committed towards instalments for equipment purchased during preceding years, there is unlikely to be any funding for big-bang purchases. The contract for 126 Rafale medium fighter aircraft, for example, would require Rs 10-15,000 crore as the signing advance. It is unclear where the IAF would find that money.

Source : Broadsword: Historic rise in DRDO budget, no additional funds for Rafale

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2 >

In a written statement tabled in the Lok Sabha on Monday, Antony's deputy, Jitendra Singh, stated, "The MiG-21 and MiG-27 aircrafts of the IAF have already been upgraded and currently equip 14 combat squadrons. These aircraft, however, are planned for being phased out over the next few years and will be replaced by the LCA."

Source : IAF will buy 14 Tejas squadrons, lowering costs | Business Standard News

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Its not hard to understand the IAF wishes, There is a order for +300 Tejas vs 126 Rafales, The decision comes from both Governments, Its not About which is better and worse, Its about availability, High Preform ace, Low cost both Operational and Maintenance..

if I not incorrect then ragale around 18 will be inducted in 2018 initially ... and then manufacturing will start in INDIA...so according to you Indian will be able to manufacture 108 within 4 years ... 25+ every year waaaao thats some thing....

for one rafale u can hve 3 tejas which means 375 tejas(mk1+mk2) inplace of 126 a/c now how does that appear....

 

[Pulkit]

:thumb:
This GOV HAS TAKEN STEPS to improve the status....

Sharing some very recent articles showing a very different scenario:

http://idrw.org/?p=40425
"he Air Force was on Friday chided by CAG for an “avoidable expenditure” of Rs 227 crore modernisation programme of its 105 Soviet-origin An-32 transport aircraft and the grounding of over 50 per cent of the fleet due to delay in creating upgrade facilities.
In its report tabled in Lok Sabha, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) said IAF procured 17 engines in 2007 and 100 engines in 2009 for the Antonv-32 transport fleet.<span id="more-40425"></span>
“IAF had paid USD 719,500 (Rs 3.16 crore) per engine against the contract of June 2007, whereas, it had to pay USD 10,90,000 (Rs 5.43 crore) per engine against the contract of December 2009. Thus, IAF had to incur a total of Rs 227 crore extra on procurement of 100 aero-engines,” it said.
The government auditor said, “Despite being aware of long-term requirement of aero-engines, IAF failed to project the entire requirement which resulted in the extra avoidable expenditure.”
An-32 is a medium tactical transport aircraft used primarily by the Air Force for transportation of the troops and cargo, para-trooping and casualty evacuation.
India had signed a contract with Ukraine for upgrading the fleet of 105 aircraft of which 40 were to be developed in Ukraine and the remaining were to be modernised in IAF facilities in Kanpur.
“Due to delay in initiation and conclusion of the contract, facilities for upgradation of an aircraft could not be set up in time despite an investment of Rs 272 crore on Transfer of Technology resulting in grounding of more than 50 per cent of the transport aircraft fleet,” he said."


http://idrw.org/?p=40421
"The Comptroller Auditor General (CAG) on Friday in its latest report tabled in the parliament has pulled up the IAF for an ‘unfruitful’ expenditure of Rs155 crore for developing an Electronic Warfare system aimed at enhancing capability of the Russian-origin MiG-27 fighter aircraft.<span id="more-40421"></span>
The CAG has said the India-Israel joint venture project for developing the system ‘Takshak’ was injudicious as it was sanctioned in 2009 by the force despite knowing that the MiG-27s would start getting phased out by 2016. “Due to injudicious decision and delay in development of ‘Takshak’ system, the objective of enhancing operational capability of a fighter aircraft could not be achieved. Besides, an expenditure of Rs 155.79 crore incurred on the project was rendered unfruitful,” the report said.
The report said that delays in the programme, the IAF during trials found that it was not fully developed and could not meet a large number of technical specifications.
“The IAF also acknowledged that induction of the ‘Takshak’ system in MiG-27 fleet would take at least another three years (from 2011) and complete fleet modification would be over only by 2016 whereas the MiG-27 aircraft fleet was planned to be phased out of service from 2014 onwards.
“Therefore, it decided to foreclose the project since it was not possible to operationally exploit this system on the aircraft. An expenditure of Rs155.79 crore had already been incurred on the project till then (January 2013),” the report said."





and this was all IAF in this case...some people call in In efficiency and I call it corruption....I know this problem cannot be solved in a day but the point of matter it as it should have been dealt with ten years bac but govt didnt ... today extreme measures are required .. checks are required over defense forces and mod...
This way we can uproot the lobbies till some extent atleast in the smaller procurements not big deals....

The former Gov`s policies which was a pro-import / pro-kickbakcs , Have caused massive blows to National defense Industry both Government as well as Private, This trend is now slowly going down with new Gov in power, Few articles >>

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Historic rise in DRDO budget





Source : Broadsword: Historic rise in DRDO budget, no additional funds for Rafale

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Nepal To Sign 1.76 billion worth Arms Deal with India



Source : India, Nepal To Sign Major Arms Deal Including Insas Rifles Contract


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In 'Dhanush', Indian Army's Prayers Answered



Source : In 'Dhanush', Indian Army's Prayers Answered - NDTV

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IAF will buy 14 Tejas squadrons, lowering costs



Source : IAF will buy 14 Tejas squadrons, lowering costs | Business Standard News

^^ Done by former Gov, Its one of the victory for National Defense Industry of India ..


================
================

One cannot step in and can undo decades of corruption, The import lobby will be at bottom of boots sooner or latter with their moles in Gov sector as well as in Private ..

 

[Pulkit]

Let me put some clarity into facts =====>>

1 >



Source : Broadsword: Historic rise in DRDO budget, no additional funds for Rafale

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2 >



Source : IAF will buy 14 Tejas squadrons, lowering costs | Business Standard News

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Its not hard to understand the IAF wishes, There is a order for +300 Tejas vs 126 Rafales, The decision comes from both Governments, Its not About which is better and worse, Its about availability, High Preform ace, Low cost both Operational and Maintenance..

YES that was one thing in budget i also noticed but IAF like earlier has a escape route or a plan to arrange this money..


They planned to have +300 mix of tejas mk1 mk2 or might be mk3 aswell...... but ordering only close to 100 mk1+mk2 showed there intension of keeping funds in hand for rafale...& They came out and criticised FGFA .. before even it is ready ....

I am against rafale as of now though it might go thru and one day i might be even proud of it but not today...

At many instances here i have even said if you so desperate need rafale then atleast keepin in mind FGFA and MK2 and AMCA you can reduce the order to say half....rest invest bac on others.... you are upgrading obsolete a/c for survival.... even when the cost of upgradation is as compared with new a/c....

 

[Pulkit]

@p2prada

Sharing an article for you ... you say Tejas is old and decades old but if you go through this article you can derive one thing out of it and that in todays era electronic and avionics define the aircraft and in the case of tejas it has modern and state of art tech... which can be upgraded whenever we have a better one.... which make tejas even more better...



"SOURCE: SAURAV JHA / IBNLIVE BLOG In 2007 during the run up to the medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) decision, the then air chief had remarked that what matters today is not the exterior of the aircraft but what is inside it"


Trends in combat jet sensors of relevance to the Indian Air Force's transformation | idrw.org

 

[Kunal Biswas]

+300 Fighters are only MK1 & MK2, DRDO did said MK3 is now on paper can be implemented when asked to, FGFA is a lost case as Russian did not wish to share technology critical to radar, Air-frame and engines rather wish to make as depended on them for these critical systems, Hence rejected by IAF, Where as Rafale deal is not even signed and we are yet to know how much tot is going to be shared, We already know about Russia as stated before, The Present Government does not have much confidence in the deal either hence again not much funding for Rafale rather boosting up DRDO budget ..

Hence logical outcome is to make the best you have from within, So its obvious why Tejas number are exceeded ..

They planned to have +300 mix of tejas mk1 mk2 or might be mk3 aswell...... but ordering only close to 100 mk1+mk2 showed there intension of keeping funds in hand for rafale...& They came out and criticised FGFA .. before even it is ready ....

 

[venkat]

================= Religious views are not allowed .. ======================

 

[Pulkit]

FGFA might be facing troubles but it cannot be ignored ... in case of FGFA we do have share in research and all but just like brahmos Russian will be in a better position ... but we all know that Brahmos is a vital organand a asset...

Russian are not willing but the tech they are not sharing can be developed in India we are way better in composites than many think....
We have been in private sector working on the same and when its required brain drain can happen from private to public...

Number of Tejas will incease for sure in near future ....but it still be 4th gen and when the world is having 5th and even 6th gen we cannot stick to it...
we need to develop and like u said DRDO is given more budget this time but it will take another 10-15 years for DRDo to come up with such an alternative till then we have to stick with FGFA as already investment has been done and we do share technology...

From FGFA something is learned by knowledge sharing and some by research .... its better than rafale TOT... and as u righly said how which TOT will be told on paper and how much will be absorbed is a whole different story....

+300 Fighters are only MK1 & MK2, DRDO did said MK3 is now on paper can be implemented when asked to, FGFA is a lost case as Russian did not wish to share technology critical to radar, Air-frame and engines rather wish to make as depended on them for these critical systems, Hence rejected by IAF, Where as Rafale deal is not even signed and we are yet to know how much tot is going to be shared, We already know about Russia as stated before, The Present Government does not have much confidence in the deal either hence again not much funding for Rafale rather boosting up DRDO budget ..

Hence logical outcome is to make the best you have from within, So its obvious why Tejas number are exceeded ..

 

[Pulkit]

Not an issue

================= Religious views are not allowed .. ======================