Indian Weapons asking for Reservation

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by Pulkit, Jul 17, 2014.

  1. Pulkit

    Pulkit Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs" Senior Member

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    Today Indian weapons are Looking for reservation for there survival in the Indian defense system.
    Firstly we do not have many defense project which succeed or live up to expectations ,Secondly they are always delayed.
    Even if they get completed and the product is satisfactory then our defense forces due to one reason or another don't accept them and induct them to serve the nation.
    The numbers ordered of Indian products are always low which discourages the organisations working hard to develop them.

    Can't we have a policy which states that arms will only be imported if the product is not developed in India.
    Instead of just giving preference why is it not made a sole option ?

    So there should be no competition for them once a product has cleared all trials.


    The weapon trials done by our defense forces are top rated thus a product clearing it can be brought to use.

    .

    Foreign lobbies use there influence and there marketing skills to impose influence on defense to acquire a certain product which brings harm to our own defense industry.

    I am not against imports but only if we don't have an Indian alternative.

    Indian First....



    by Pulkit
     
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  3. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Never happened. If something was concluded with satisfactory or good results, the numbers purchased was always very high. Akash, Brahmos, INSAS, Pinaka and many more. Thousands have been ordered. It is actually quite transparent because DRDO advertises successes far and wide even if the armed forces are always reserved and not open to the media.

    The ones that do badly get no orders. And that becomes quite obvious eventually and even DRDO agrees and accepts that. The only problem is that the bad ones are generally big ticket projects.
     
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  4. EXPERT

    EXPERT Regular Member

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    But I agree with @Pulkit too.
     
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  5. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Doesn't mean it is correct. :)
     
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  6. EXPERT

    EXPERT Regular Member

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    To an extent. .
     
  7. ghost

    ghost Regular Member

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    I would like to inform you that we have the exact policy right now.According to which ,we can only import if we are not able to produce it.


    There are many things which need to be done, to develop a good arm production and development base.One of the major reason why china is able to develop copies and other arms is because China has employed various experienced defense scientist from world over .

    I don't know the current policy in Drdo ,but they should employ foreign expert along with Indians.Like for assault rifle there are a lot of experienced expert which drdo can employ , use their expertise and knowledge.Just like private companies do.You know foreign expert employed by tata were involved in the development of tata nano.I do not mean Indians don't have brain , what i am implying is that Drdo should harness talent ,brain ,and experience from world over.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
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  8. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Adding to what ghost has already mentioned. Only DRDO has the authority to allow the military to allow importing a weapon. So all the imported weapons you see today were all approved by DRDO. There are times when the MoD can exercise their powers, but most of he time DRDO has the last say. Naturally, this is for weapons systems that DRDO is developing. Meaning, they have no say in what tanker IAF can purchase since DRDO isn't developing one of their own.

    So, when IAF wanted S-300 system, DRDO shot it down. DRDO said they will build their own which they did, although it took a few more years than expected.

    Whenever there is a critical need of some system, DRDO allows the import of that weapon irrespective of what is being developed by DRDO. For eg: DRDO failed to deliver Arjun, so they gave the army the approval required to purchase the T-90. All the follow-on T-90s in service were after DRDO accepted they cannot deliver on the Arjun.

    So, it is the sole option except in cases where DRDO themselves accept failure.

    Kaveri engine was another such example. In this case, unknown to many people, it wasn't IAF which decided Kaveri won't go on LCA, it was ADA which made the decision. But IAF approval was required for using the F-404 because design changes meant different performance parameters which they have to accept. Even the decision to go for the F-414 was an ADA decision, not IAF's.

    Just so all members can understand clearly, if the armed forces is importing a weapons system that DRDO is already developing, then you can be 100% guaranteed that DRDO has allowed the import of that weapon system. This is how it has always worked. Without that approval, the armed forces cannot import.
     
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  9. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Only Indian citizens can apply for posts in DRDO. Foreign consultants are accepted, but they are hired through tenders and represent large companies like EADS.

    It's not lack of brains or resources, it is all because of mismanagement. Every work group does their own thing and there is no synergy. This is especially the case in large projects where multiple labs are involved with multiple teams under them.

    Do you know what really happens here? Say for example I ask you to make a male connector of 2cm dia, another team may make a female connector of 1cm dia. When both have their products ready and they come to interconnect them, obviously fiasco happens. Naturally, none of them take the blame. Work restarts. This time the first team makes 1cm dia and the other team makes 2cm dia, process repeats until they get it right. I have simplified it, but this is what happens, just imagine on a larger scale with materials and tolerances that takes months to finish.

    Recently there was a small explosion in a Bangalore lab that I cannot reveal, and it has delayed a "very important" project by a few months. The reason was because one guy (team) was doing something else and another guy (team) came and tampered with it. They were messing with batteries and boom. Nobody was hurt, but "product" was damaged. Neither side knew what the other side was doing. How will the avionics team know what the FCS team is doing and viceversa? They simply lack the experience to work together.

    Lack of experience is another cause for failure. When they are designing an airframe, they can't get the loads right the first or the second time, it is a series of hits and misses. They keep trying different combinations until they get a few right. And just so you know this takes weeks to work on. So, what Boeing may take one month, we may take 10 months to finish. Naturally, this will take time. But if you add this with mismanagement, you can only imagine the delays it will cause. That's what is happening to many projects, not just LCA. A friend of mine worked on the same thing for nine months straight and provided a dozen different loads for the same aircraft.

    So, when they give deadlines, they are actually quite flexible and realistic, if they were Boeing. What they cannot take into consideration is the failure of one or more teams in large projects, this aspect is impossible to predict.

    Consultation can avoid most of this problem and save time. They should have done this properly from the start. What consultants do is, like in my previous examples with loads, the designers work on just two or three loads, and the consultants decide which is the best tolerances to use. This saves them months in determining it by themselves. However it is difficult in the case of India than if we were Korea. We are a growing power and we are eventually going to compete with these big companies, and they know it. They could even give wrong information, so there is always such risk involved.

    As long as the armed forces are not held hostage to this, it would be fine. But that's not happening.

    When DRDO makes something there is no guarantee it will work. Even DRDO doesn't give that guarantee without having tested it for the umpteenth time. So, until the armed forces field tests it, they are not guaranteed a good product. It is only after it is properly field tested do they come to know if something works or not. But when it comes to imported maal, they are already guaranteed that the system will work because that's the kind of reputation the companies have built up over the years. Foreign companies don't give or show defective products until they themselves have tested it at home or sold it to their own armed forces. So, when they bring something to the field, the armed forces is certain that it will work.

    This same issues are less severe in the missile labs of the DRDO. DRDO's missile labs are highly regarded around the world now. When they bring something in for field testing the chances for failure is much lower, and the quality of the prototype itself is very high. Out of the 4 weapons systems I mentioned in my first post, you will notice that three of them are missiles.
     
  10. Pulkit

    Pulkit Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs" Senior Member

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    @ghost @p2prada @EXPERT
    It was not about if I am right or wrong....
    Many of you have quoted weapons which were inducted in good number .. true.. But what about the projects which never came in lime light and under foreign lobbies influence were scraped....?
    My point was If we have made a tank then Army cannot be allowed to get any tank imported at any condition...
    DRDO and other org fail because the consumer is not happy and complaining let the customer be part of it they dont want to so force them..
    this way Defense forces will be bound to work together with organisations lie DRDO to develop a product.

    Example we are going to import rifles... but we have a home made rifle ... So Defense forces should not import any.... the modernization of Rifle should have been done in all these years not at the last moment... Here DRDO was complaining saying no time was given and army was saying its an old rifle...

    See @p2prada this is also a case of what you explained.

    Org like DRDO in India can only work well under STICK and defense forces can become that STICK if such an policy is being made.....

    IF YOU DONT DEVELOP AN ALREADY PRODUCED PRODUCT FOR FUTURE USE YOU CANNOT IMPORT IT...

    here neither of them are victims they are both culprits.. they never work together which they have to learn in one way or another.... This policy can be one of them....
    @EXPERT yes our policy is similar to this and DRDO does make call...
    but what can you do if I don't clear your products and come to you asking for a similar product...At the very last moment when there is no time for developement... You have to allow me buy from foreign....


    and who said that there cannot be any lobbies in DRDO aswell.... they are everywhere....
     
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  11. Pulkit

    Pulkit Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs" Senior Member

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    Taking approval doesnot really solve the issue the issue is whose responsible.....
    They is no competition only monopoly here...


    defense blames DRDO and DRDO blames Defense...we dont even have 10% of our own tanks even when arjun was made and inducted after clearing all the trials....
    This way they will be forced to work in tandem and plan better...

    They one of the biggest issue is time management they will be forced to do that....

    +
    All the influence these so called arms lobbies hve will be diluted.....



     
  12. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Let me give you an example.

    Would one use an Ambassador when one has better options in the same class?

    While one would surely prefer an Indian product, but there can be no carte blanche since weapons and weapon platforms are the sole arbiter of life and death in a split second.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
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  13. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    The ideal way to give impetus to the DRDO and OFB is to allow them to produce weaponry geared for export and the bottomline of the balance sheet be the verdict of their efficiency, ingenuity, and success.

    Currently, they have the monopoly to service the Defence.

    And Monopoly only encourages bureaucracy and lethargy in approach.
     
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  14. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Anybody and everybody talking about foreign lobby is being misled by the media. No matter how strong the lobbying is, the armed forces like to do things their own way and DRDO still gets the final say.

    No project was ever scraped due to foreign lobbying. Being a large country, no country can dictate to India, and within India itself the bureaucratic procedures alone are so long that one or two individuals cannot easily influence large projects.

    People forget that DRDO's lobbying is more powerful than even Putin's personal lobbyists because they don't know the facts.

    That's bullshit. And DRDO's rifle, when ready, will be bought because it is part of the F-INSAS program.
     
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  15. Pulkit

    Pulkit Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs" Senior Member

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    Sir all those things matter .....
    I am not saying use an inferior weapon...
    I know value of life is more than of weapon....

    But once you have made an Ambassador why stop at it.....
    The new requirement of a ambassador didnt arise in a day....

    My take is different at it... and let me say its not about affordability...

    Wat our DRDO and defense does is they sit after completion of one product ,.... As noticed they dont take measures to upgrade modify improve them.... the only time its done when the weapon is already obsolete ...

    What I am trying to say is.... Defense forces have to be made involved in all this activity....

    you might agree that our trials are too lengthy and are a necessity as well(We are not pakis)...
    But you need to stream line the organisation....

    You will choose a better option but when you dont need it why go for it...

    Alot of times the requirements are changed in this case by defense forces .. If they are involved they wont be able to say we wanted this and that and its not the end result.....

    With this they will be aware that they have to return here only and at the last moment they cannot just buy some foreign junk....So they will take extra care...

    This blame game will stop and you will be able to pin point the culprit... Today DRDO says Defense changed req .. Defense Says no...

    DRDO says they didnt give us enough time where as Defense Says tehy were told already....


    If some thing u cannot develop then surely we need to import.....


    And just to assure you I am not an expert but I know the final user defense forces are and once a trial is cleared then they should not hold back....
    I am just saying once trials are cleared then no competition......
     
  16. TrueSpirit1

    TrueSpirit1 The Nobody Banned

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    While I agree with you on everything (well, almost), I find it really hard to agree with what you are saying here (in this post). There is simply no bulwark in India against the onslaught of greenbacks & the lure of Western higher-education for kids with total sponsorship, free jaunts to distant shores for families, etc. & there is no dearth of Hawala channels or safe-havens.

    DRDO does have a monopoly but saying that foreign lobbying by arms-dealers is a muted phenomena is tooo stretched to digest.
     
  17. Pulkit

    Pulkit Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs" Senior Member

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    Question :Are we importing rifles? If yes why was it not developed earlier ,If no then I take my words back in this case....
    Our top most leadership is corrupt and the lobbiest dont need to target all just one individual is enough..
    No project was scrapped (as per you) but ordering a mere numbers and importing rest is also scrapping as it leaves no space for growth...
     
  18. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    What I am saying is foreign lobbyists have little influence over DRDO's lobbying. Also, paying off one or two guys is going to be worthless. All decision are made by panels and they follow procedures. No company can afford to pay off every member of the panel and all the bureaucrats linked to it. What lobbyists do is they ask parliament members to scrutinize deals and try to push their product to the front. They try and get information they shouldn't know during tenders. They try and find out what the army is looking for before a tender is released. They try and find people who can talk for their product during defense meetings.

    For eg: From all the articles we have been reading, Ajai Shukla seems to be lobbying for Lockheed Martin (F-35) and DRDO (Arjun). Whether he is genuinely interested in seeing both in India or whether he is simply being paid, I don't know, nor am I making such assertions, but do you think he has any kind of influence in the MoD or the IAF or DGMF? Nevertheless what he is doing is lobbying.

    But when the director of DRDO directly lobbies to the MoD when DRDO has complete monopoly, it is going to work most of the time. It will take the interference of the service chiefs to change the outcome sometimes.

    To tell you the truth, even if Sonia is paid all the money in the world, she wouldn't be able to influence anything in the army beyond making political speeches. She can't simply decide what the army can buy and another Bofors happening is going to be extremely difficult. There have been plenty of such claims, but none of them have held up in courts.

    As a matter of fact, there is probably more corruption between DPSUs and the military than it is between foreign lobbyists and the Indian military, like the case with the Tatra trucks, or even in administration like the case of the Adarsh scandal.

    An example is the Barak scandal that Tehelka apparently "exposed." It turned out to be fake. There was no middleman, there was no lobbying by any Israeli companies. Media likes scandals, and people who are ignorant get trapped in it.
     
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  19. TrueSpirit1

    TrueSpirit1 The Nobody Banned

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    Because you don't have compelling & incriminating evidence, you summarily exonerate the accused of all allegations (make-believe or otherwise) ?

    You place too much of your faith in Indian systems (investigating agencies, judiciary, bureaucracies etc). Our glorified systems are not as much a iron-curtain as they might have been in some distant past. Basically, there are many systemic loopholes that dalaals know how to exploit to their advantage. Tenders/committes/RFI/RFP's/Panel/commitee etc. are there in every organization but from what we have seen all our lives, right from DIO & BDO at Panchayat & block level to the MES (Military Engg. Services) & to the MoD level, screwing/un-screwing a few nuts-bolts here and there is an everyday affair & that the only way, our systems work.

    However, I agree with you regarding the DPSU & Armed forces' corruption part, something which would be plain visible to anyone who have family member/relatives in there.
     
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  20. ersakthivel

    ersakthivel Senior Member Senior Member

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    All decisions are made by pliant panelists appointed by government.And lobbyists control the politicians who appoint them.

    if we look at the recent revealations , it is clear that politicians ultimately get away leaving officials in the eyewash grip of toothless investigating agencies and all are forgotten after a couple of years.

    And not a single dissenting voice ever emerges from so called defence analyst of unnamed higher IAf or IA officials who mercilessly tear apart DRDO products.

    For example china is going to induct J-20 in a couple of years time.

    We are going to spend 20 billion dollars to induct Rafale which is a generation behind J-20.So called defence journos who call tejas three decades old and obsolete at induction have till to date never asked this critical question --"How do you expect rafale fleet to counter J-20 fleet over Tibet " to IAF.

    No one till to date has asked is it fair to concentrate our meager defence capital equippment budget entirely in rafale for the next decade, (tinkering endlessly with our FGFA version !!!)or buy PAKFA in a Su-30 MKI like exchange later for FGFA type deal,

    which russians will gladly oblige.In the meantime if there are squadron deficiencies extra production line for tejas mk-2 will easily take care.

    World over people are inducting J-20s and F-35s in the coming tenyears, We are still hung up with the MMRCA circus which originally was all about 126 Mirage-2000 fighter procurement gone bad. Now with tejas mk-1 easily matching mirage-2000 there is no original need for rafale or three tier airforce.because as late as 2004 IAF only wanted 126 mirages.

    They blithely cite "unnamed higher IAF officials" to point out historic truths like tejas can go just 200 Km, But to bomb deep inside tibet We need rafale. Do they ever ask these unnamed sources , How is rafale supposed o penetrate deep into Tibet which will be safeguarded by J-20?

    The grand prof prodyut das types who doesn't even know the empty weight of Tejas made at home, but will cite Wiliam green for Gripen empty weight(in the article," Ails of LCA"), never ask such questions to unnamed IAF sources.

    Not only that they will repeatedly say that 60 ton Arjun wont cross small bridges meant for 40 ton weight on smaller indian roads citing the same unnamed IA officiers.. But they will never ask how will the 50 ton T-90 cross those same bridges.The answer is both T-90 and Arjun are going to use the same standardized 70 ton bridge crossing support equippments.

    it is either the inferiority complex fueled by remnant of colonialism or motivated agenda that drives these journos.Thats why a reservation policy is essential for a robust domestic
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
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  21. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    The problem with the DRDO rifles isn't DRDO, but the quality of rifles made by OFB. Quality control is very poor for INSAS.

    It is yet to be seen what is the future of DRDO's MCIWS and whether it will trump over the current 66,000 order. If DRDO can deliver I see no reason why the army won't order it. But if ends up being more expensive or less capable than the winner of the tender, then fat chance. Lots of ifs and buts and only time will tell.

    The current goal for import is 166,000 rifles. It's still a very small number. There is an extremely high chance the INSAS will be replaced by the new MCIWS. So, this could be like what happened in the mid-'90s where 100,000 Bulgarian AK-47s were purchased before IA placed an order for 650,000 INSAS.

    You can't jump to conclusions before knowing or understanding the ground realities.

    He can't do jack-shit.

    Stuff that doesn't work is not ordered. I have already explained that.

    And what was ordered in mere numbers after which the same thing was imported? There is no such thing. You are just cooking up stories.
     
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