Indian-US-Aussie Navy Co-Operation to counter China

[mattster]

First sentence is contradictory at its best. Second line bills a big zero out of value of Indian Soldiers at border.
I'm amused! :emot0:

How many Pak Jihadis have Indian troops at the border killed all year long. Now compare that with the number of dead Taliban/Pak Jihadis inflicted by Predator and targetted special forces strikes and the number of senior leaders killed by the US.

Like I said before guys - I dont know why this is freaking rocket science for so many people.
When you have someone else taking out a common enemy of yours without you having to lift a finger - then WTF are you complaining about if you are INDIA ???

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

Well how many insurgents have the Americans killed? There is no match for the INDIANS when it comes to killing the pakistan insurgents. Our INDIAN troops have been killing atleast two insurgents every day since 1947 and now it is 2010. This is just a minimum of insurgents. Coming to the American forces, they have just seen and killed the duds or useless and very weak insurgents and that too with the help of drones. You americans have not fought those hard hearted and cold blooded terrorists who are animals with your bare hands. It is a daily duty for our troops to fight them. No one eligible to comment upon the INDIAN troops when it comes to killing those insurgents. Mr.mattster you have no right what so ever to tell that INDIAN troops have killed less insugernts than your american troops or special forces. Never poke your nose into something which you dont know. My father too is a war vetran, he participated in the 1971 war b/w INDIA and pakistan, in which you americans supported those bloody insurgents who are pakistanis and now you say that you americans have killed more insurgents than INDIANS. Think you are out of your mmind to make such statements...........
:emot154:

 

[ace009]

Well how many insurgents have the Americans killed? There is no match for the INDIANS when it comes to killing the pakistan insurgents. Our INDIAN troops have been killing atleast two insurgents every day since 1947 and now it is 2010. This is just a minimum of insurgents. Coming to the American forces, they have just seen and killed the duds or useless and very weak insurgents and that too with the help of drones. You americans have not fought those hard hearted and cold blooded terrorists who are animals with your bare hands. It is a daily duty for our troops to fight them. No one eligible to comment upon the INDIAN troops when it comes to killing those insurgents. Mr.mattster you have no right what so ever to tell that INDIAN troops have killed less insugernts than your american troops or special forces. Never poke your nose into something which you dont know. My father too is a war vetran, he participated in the 1971 war b/w INDIA and pakistan, in which you americans supported those bloody insurgents who are pakistanis and now you say that you americans have killed more insurgents than INDIANS. Think you are out of your mmind to make such statements...........
:emot154:

Actually Sesha, "insurgents" and enemy combatants are not the same - "insurgents" are militia/ terrorists/ gunmen dressed in civilian clothes trying to infiltrate our country. Enemy combatants can be insurgents or uniformed enemy soldiers. In a war, generally it is the enemy soldiers who oppose us and who our soldiers kill. Insurgents on the other hand are always at a state of war. They are continuously trying to infiltrate and weaken us.
Now USA has been killing a lot of Af-Pak Taliban/ tribals, but how many are insurgents is questionable. If they are in their own country, then you cannot really call them insurgents. Terrorists maybe.

Definition aside, Pakistan was instrumental in creating the taliban and the insurgents in both Afghanistan and India. The USA supported Pakistan in the 80s in that venture. In the 90s the USA stayed aloof from South Asia and in the 2000s the USA came to fight against the Taliban. Full circle. Except for the fact that Pakistan was, is and would be playing for both sides! On the one hand Pakistan Army is fighting the "taliban" alongside USA whereas on the other hand ISI is arming and helping the taliban secretly. ISI is also, as always arming and helping insurgents, terrorists and other criminals in India.

So, long story short, Mattster - why don't Indians trust the USA? Because the USA is in bed with Pakistan, who is in bed with taliban, Terrorists and Mujahideens from everywhere. India just does not believe in a bed as big as that.

For a long time India has been telling this to USA indirectly - it's either Pakistan or India. Now it is time to tell them directly - choose who you go to bed with - Pakistan or India?

 

[Crusader53]

For a long time India has been telling this to USA indirectly - it's either Pakistan or India. Now it is time to tell them directly - choose who you go to bed with - Pakistan or India?

Many in the US have just about had it with Pakistans double dealing and I could see both countries parting ways. Yet, India is hardly in a place to be telling the US what to do. As a matter of fact you don't see the US telling India what to do. Also, India should hardly be lecturing the US Relationship with Pakistan with its history with the Former USSR and Russia. Talk about calling the Kettle Black! Nonetheless, both sides (US & india) have much to gain by a closer relationship. Neither one would be wise to lecture the other.

 

[Tshering22]

Many in the US have just about had it with Pakistans double dealing and I could see both countries parting ways.

Good. Because honestly, you're not doing us a favour but saving your own troops and neck in Afghanistan. Half the number of NATO soldiers that have died in Afghanistan is because of Pakistani leadership playing double agents. Young soldiers aged 20 years and below have gone and fought for your country, and just because of Pentagon's political ego, sacrificed themselves; that too on something India has been telling you guys for the last 2 decades at least.

You realized it late. However, better late than never.

Yet, India is hardly in a place to be telling the US what to do.

We don't have to. Now no matter what you do to Pakistan, they will never be able to match us in any way except conducting terrorism everywhere including places of your interest and people connected to US in some or the other way. So in simple words, you will only be axing your foot further if you stretch your relationship with them any further. That country was built on the foundation of identity crisis, hatred, paranoia, intolerance and lies and any land with such shaky foundations doesn't last long.

As a matter of fact you don't see the US telling India what to do.

Simply because it never works. Don't tell me White House never tried. And personally, I don't mind. You might have advised something; if we liked it, we would do it thanking your advice and if we didn't, we refuse to do it. Simple as that. You see, it might be looking one and the same to you but ever since the emergence of modern India, we were never quite like the Pakistanis in anyway. Hence by attempting to weight both of us on a political scale was simply a geo-political blunder for US during Cold War.

Also, India should hardly be lecturing the US Relationship with Pakistan with its history with the Former USSR and Russia.

Our friendship with USSR/ Russia didn't cause millions of deaths around the world due to terrorism, thousands injured everyday in religious terrorist attack or for that matter, radicalize millions of people to an intolerant pitch and become a danger to all the surrounding countries. While your association with Pakistan in 80s is seeing results now in this form what your own troops are now facing.

I am surprised how you can connect our ties with Russians and yours to Pakistanis. Tell me who's more rational in the end? Now even if you part ways with Pakistanis, your millions have gone down the drains all these years, haven't they?

Talk about calling the Kettle Black! Nonetheless, both sides (US & india) have much to gain by a closer relationship. Neither one would be wise to lecture the other.

I 100% agree with you, man. We have more to gain for both our countries. But Pentagon needs to look into South Asia through a new prism rather than the one that Kissinger built for you decades back.

 

[ace009]

Many in the US have just about had it with Pakistans double dealing and I could see both countries parting ways. Yet, India is hardly in a place to be telling the US what to do. As a matter of fact you don't see the US telling India what to do. Also, India should hardly be lecturing the US Relationship with Pakistan with its history with the Former USSR and Russia. Talk about calling the Kettle Black! Nonetheless, both sides (US & india) have much to gain by a closer relationship. Neither one would be wise to lecture the other.

I can understand what you say, but honestly, how many times India has sold a weapon, trained intelligence/ insurgents that came to harm the USA? Actually for decades, Indians have been fighting Muslim insurgents from Pakistan, while US govts were SUPPORTING Pakistan, ISI and the muslim insurgents in there. All in the name of cold war. Do you know why India landed in the USSR camp? Maybe I can give you a small dose of history ...

Once upon a time long long ago, (1960s) India was firmly in the non-aligned camp. Dealing neither with the USA nor with the USSR overtly. Actually back then, covertly CIA used to train the Indian intelligence agencies (the fledgling RAW). The US used to believe India was the best bet against communism in Asia!

http://www-english.tamu.edu/pers/fac/bhattacharya/files/Madan_Between Defense and Development.pdf

However, in the mid 1960s, USA got close with Pakistan and started developing ties with China through Pakistan.
Pakistan also got US weapons (F-86 sabres with AIM-9 sidewinder, Patton tank) through Saudi Arabia and Iran, courtesy of the CIA - primarily to counter soviet influence in South Asia. However, guess where those weapons were used? Against India in the 1965 war and again against India in 1971 war. In the 1971 war, Kissinger and Nixon also wagered that China can invade India in support of Pakistan. They also sent a carrier battle group to Bay of Bengal to threaten India during 1971.

Nixon/Kissinger Saw India as "Soviet Stooge" in 1971 South Asia Crisis

Result? India signed a defense pact with the USSR in 1972, and started developing their own nuclear program. Counterproductive at best!

Now, back to India "lecturing" the USA - there is no lecturing involved - it is simply a choice - either you help us or you help our enemies. USA cannot hope to sell India weapons at a market rate and then give "military aid" to Pakistan, i.e. free weapons to maintain "balance of power". Screw balance of power. Indians feel like their hard earned money is going in purchasing weapons from USA, which is helping in arming their enemies across the border.
Has the US felt that for the last 25 years about India? Or even before that?

And yes - I agree completely that India and USA should be allies - the alliance can be as close and as good as the USA-Israel alliance. But just like Israel would not tolerate USA friendship with Syria, Lebanon or Iran, India cannot tolerate USA friendship with Pakistan.
I think it is time USA and India make a defence pact and have real close diplomatic ties.

 

[The Messiah]

I can understand what you say, but honestly, how many times India has sold a weapon, trained intelligence/ insurgents that came to harm the USA? Actually for decades, Indians have been fighting Muslim insurgents from Pakistan, while US govts were SUPPORTING Pakistan, ISI and the muslim insurgents in there. All in the name of cold war. Do you know why India landed in the USSR camp? Maybe I can give you a small dose of history ...

Once upon a time long long ago, (1960s) India was firmly in the non-aligned camp. Dealing neither with the USA nor with the USSR overtly. Actually back then, covertly CIA used to train the Indian intelligence agencies (the fledgling RAW). The US used to believe India was the best bet against communism in Asia!

http://www-english.tamu.edu/pers/fac/bhattacharya/files/Madan_Between Defense and Development.pdf

However, in the mid 1960s, USA got close with Pakistan and started developing ties with China through Pakistan.
Pakistan also got US weapons (F-86 sabres with AIM-9 sidewinder, Patton tank) through Saudi Arabia and Iran, courtesy of the CIA - primarily to counter soviet influence in South Asia. However, guess where those weapons were used? Against India in the 1965 war and again against India in 1971 war. In the 1971 war, Kissinger and Nixon also wagered that China can invade India in support of Pakistan. They also sent a carrier battle group to Bay of Bengal to threaten India during 1971.

Nixon/Kissinger Saw India as "Soviet Stooge" in 1971 South Asia Crisis

Result? India signed a defense pact with the USSR in 1972, and started developing their own nuclear program. Counterproductive at best!

Now, back to India "lecturing" the USA - there is no lecturing involved - it is simply a choice - either you help us or you help our enemies. USA cannot hope to sell India weapons at a market rate and then give "military aid" to Pakistan, i.e. free weapons to maintain "balance of power". Screw balance of power. Indians feel like their hard earned money is going in purchasing weapons from USA, which is helping in arming their enemies across the border.
Has the US felt that for the last 25 years about India? Or even before that?

And yes - I agree completely that India and USA should be allies - the alliance can be as close and as good as the USA-Israel alliance. But just like Israel would not tolerate USA friendship with Syria, Lebanon or Iran, India cannot tolerate USA friendship with Pakistan.
I think it is time USA and India make a defence pact and have real close diplomatic ties.

USA will never abandon pakistan ever. Because they need strategic alliance and don't want any other country to have influence over it. Pakistan is a perfect place to keep tabs on middle-east, India and china and usa wont give it up easily.

They will not have same "alliance" with us because we aren't shameless like pakiis and wont bend over with a begging bowl infront of uncle yankee.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

First you create a monster and then cooperate to kill it! hmmm!

 

[Crusader53]

USA will never abandon pakistan ever. Because they need strategic alliance and don't want any other country to have influence over it. Pakistan is a perfect place to keep tabs on middle-east, India and china and usa wont give it up easily.

They will not have same "alliance" with us because we aren't shameless like pakiis and wont bend over with a begging bowl infront of uncle yankee.

You are mistaken..........

 

[Crusader53]

I can understand what you say, but honestly, how many times India has sold a weapon, trained intelligence/ insurgents that came to harm the USA? Actually for decades, Indians have been fighting Muslim insurgents from Pakistan, while US govts were SUPPORTING Pakistan, ISI and the muslim insurgents in there. All in the name of cold war. Do you know why India landed in the USSR camp? Maybe I can give you a small dose of history ...

Once upon a time long long ago, (1960s) India was firmly in the non-aligned camp. Dealing neither with the USA nor with the USSR overtly. Actually back then, covertly CIA used to train the Indian intelligence agencies (the fledgling RAW). The US used to believe India was the best bet against communism in Asia!

http://www-english.tamu.edu/pers/fac/bhattacharya/files/Madan_Between Defense and Development.pdf

However, in the mid 1960s, USA got close with Pakistan and started developing ties with China through Pakistan.
Pakistan also got US weapons (F-86 sabres with AIM-9 sidewinder, Patton tank) through Saudi Arabia and Iran, courtesy of the CIA - primarily to counter soviet influence in South Asia. However, guess where those weapons were used? Against India in the 1965 war and again against India in 1971 war. In the 1971 war, Kissinger and Nixon also wagered that China can invade India in support of Pakistan. They also sent a carrier battle group to Bay of Bengal to threaten India during 1971.

Nixon/Kissinger Saw India as "Soviet Stooge" in 1971 South Asia Crisis

Result? India signed a defense pact with the USSR in 1972, and started developing their own nuclear program. Counterproductive at best!

Now, back to India "lecturing" the USA - there is no lecturing involved - it is simply a choice - either you help us or you help our enemies. USA cannot hope to sell India weapons at a market rate and then give "military aid" to Pakistan, i.e. free weapons to maintain "balance of power". Screw balance of power. Indians feel like their hard earned money is going in purchasing weapons from USA, which is helping in arming their enemies across the border.
Has the US felt that for the last 25 years about India? Or even before that?

And yes - I agree completely that India and USA should be allies - the alliance can be as close and as good as the USA-Israel alliance. But just like Israel would not tolerate USA friendship with Syria, Lebanon or Iran, India cannot tolerate USA friendship with Pakistan.
I think it is time USA and India make a defence pact and have real close diplomatic ties.

Clearly a complex issue and one that both sides can learn from. Yet, it requires a great deal of understanding from both side. Personally, I think both Governments understand the issue far better. Than you average Indian or American.

 

[AOE]

What about Afghanistan? It's good and all to point out the flaws of Kissinger, and I agree with many of the criticisms of him, but what about the survivability and security of the emerging state of Afghanistan, or should that be thrown on the bonfire too? I've even heard it many times on these forums that some Indians would prefer it if the US would not consider an early pull out in 2014, so what better alternative is being suggested here? If they stay on longer then that would include further reliance on Pakistan, if they leave then they're abandoning the country to Pakistani backed tribalists. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[Crusader53]

What about Afghanistan? It's good and all to point out the flaws of Kissinger, and I agree with many of the criticisms of him, but what about the survivability and security of the emerging state of Afghanistan, or should that be thrown on the bonfire too? I've even heard it many times on these forums that some Indians would prefer it if the US would not consider an early pull out in 2014, so what better alternative is being suggested here? If they stay on longer then that would include further reliance on Pakistan, if they leave then they're abandoning the country to Pakistani backed tribalists. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Exactly..........Really, many in India want the US to pull out of Afghanistan and tell Pakistan to go to hell. Yet, what happens then??? Do radicals take over both countries with the latter having Nuclear Weapons.

In short if your American you loose either way and your just trying to make the world a safer place. While most sit on the sidelines and just criticize.......

 

[asianobserve]

Exactly..........Really, many in India want the US to pull out of Afghanistan and tell Pakistan to go to hell. Yet, what happens then??? Do radicals take over both countries with the latter having Nuclear Weapons.

In short if your American you loose either way and your just trying to make the world a safer place. While most sit on the sidelines and just criticize.......

The World is just full of whiners and holier-than-thous. But we can live with them. The World is moving forward despite of them.