Indian Tank Ammunition Scenario

[Kunal Biswas]

After 10 days our army and babus will be sending our IL-76 and C-130 to other countries to buy ammunition on higher price

Yeah we can win war on foreign imports..

 

[arya]

The people at OFB brass should be punished..

Regarding Insas ammo, newer rounds are ok, And newer means recently..

punish what are you talking you are living i India, while we ca punish ajmal kasb, afjal guru then you thi we can punish them

yes you can take few jobs poor babus but you cant touch master

 

[arya]

Yeah we can win war on foreign imports..

well that my india

 

[Blackwater]

i hope your remember kargil you know why we lost more soldiers because we were half ready .

my comment has come only from kargil my dear

i also remembered IL-76 rushed to south Africa to buy bofors gole at higher price

this time C-130 will also join

 

[arya]

With Army chief General V K Singh ominously warning his entire tank fleet is ``devoid of critical ammunition to defeat enemy tanks'', the government is fast-tracking orders to arm the T-90S main-battle tanks with missiles and specialized ammunition for a greater punch on the western front with Pakistan.

Top sources say contracts for 25,000 Invar missiles and 66,000 APFSDS (armour-piercing fin-stabilized discarding sabot) rounds for the Russian-origin T-90S fleet as well as 10,000 Konkurs-M anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs), at an overall cost of around Rs 6,000 crore, are in the final stages.

This comes after Gen Singh wrote a confidential letter to PM Manmohan Singh on March 12, which found its way into the public domain, detailing the critical ``hollowness'' in his 1.13-million-strong Army's war-waging capabilities.

Defence minister A K Antony, incidentally, is slated to hold the third review meeting on Gen Singh's concerns on April 17-18. While the procurement process for the new contracts was initiated quite sometime ago, their swift conclusion has become a top-priority over the last few weeks.

There are two big contracts for the 3UBK-Invar missiles, which are potent anti-tank weapons with a five-km strike range, in the pipeline. The first is for 10,000 missiles for Rs 1,386 crore from Russia for which a ``draft'' CCS (cabinet committee on security) note has already been prepared and circulated, say sources.

The rest 15,000 missiles will be ordered from defence PSU Bharat Dynamics Ltd, at a cost of over Rs 2,000 crore, for which the contract negotiations committee (CNC) is in progress.

Another over Rs 2,000 crore contract will be for the 66,000 APFSDS rounds fired from the 125mm smooth-bore guns of T-90S tanks. The reserve stocks for this specialized ammunition is down to only four days, as Army vice-chief Lt-Gen S K Singh told the parliamentary standing committee on defence on Monday.

The Army is also going to get the 10,000 Konkurs-M ATGMs directly from Russia for over Rs 1,200 crore. ``All these contracts should be inked within the next few months,'' said a source.

The T-90S fleet, incidentally, has grappled with glitches in its missile and thermal imaging systems right since its induction after India first ordered 310 of these tanks for over Rs 3,625 crore under a February 2001 contract with Russia.

India went in for T-90S tanks since Pakistan was inducting T-80UD tanks from Ukraine as well as `Al Khalid' MBTs developed with China's help, and the indigenous Arjun tanks were then nowhere on the horizon.

Initially, India had plans to manufacture another 1,000 T-90S tanks at the Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory, but Russia, eager to squeeze out more money, put several roadblocks in the transfer of technology (ToT) promised.

It was only after India signed another Rs 4,900-crore deal with Russia in November, 2007, to import another 347 of these tanks, coupled with Antony pushing the ToT case with his Russian counterparts, that Moscow eased controls

 

[lemontree]

Gents,
First let us understand what is the meaning of 10 days ammo left.
The Chief is talking of war wastage reserves.

The units have the 1st line, 2nd line, 3rd line ammo with them. Now what is this term "war wastage reserves" and how is the WWR calculated?

- Take the number of weapons you have.
- Work out the task of the weapons or units. (this is done sector wise and formation wise).
- Likely targets of the formations.
- Total ammo requied for each type of task.
- Multiply this with the number of days the war is to last.
- This figure is the WWR.

To under stand this better (Ray sir & Kunal help me out here):-

An infantry battalion in defence:
- In defence my WWR requirement will me more. Because I may have to withstand 5 to 7 attacks and use all weapons at my disposal.
I will have to have all the 2nd line, 3rd line and WWR located at the forward defended localities. At times units face multiple attacks in a single night if they are defending a key location and there will be no time for the bn QM to supply the rifle companies.

- In attack my WWR will be less, as I would expect to capture the obj with mini small arms fire and depend on arty and mortar fire.
Here the WWR can be with the rear echlons and forward units can be replenished with second line ammo reserves.

Hope this gives you some insight into what is WWR.

 

[bhramos]

Jabalpur: Expired Army tank ammunition sold to Naxals

New Delhi: The Army has been hit by yet another scam — one which has significant implications for the internal security of the country. Expired tank ammunition from a Central Ordnance Depot in Jabalpur has landed in the hands of Naxalites who are capable of recycling them for launching audacious attacks on security forces.
Documents accessed by Express reveal that the Army has initiated disciplinary proceedings against Lieutenant Colonel SC Pandey, who was posted in the Central Ordnance Depot (COD), Jabalpur, on charges of selling unserviceable T-72 tank ammunition on the sly to a scrap dealer in Agra in November 2011.
What is more alarming is that these 125 mm FSAPDS (Fin Stabilized Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot) ammunition has found its way into the hands of Naxals operating in Jharkhand — a startling fact revealed by a witness during the Summary of Evidence.

The FSAPDS ammunition is considered to be the most lethal kinetic-energy cartridge, capable of destroying all known armoured tanks. It is also capable of enhancing the fire power of the T-72 tank. As a senior serving officer pointed out, the expired ammunition sold to the scrap dealer cannot be fired using a gun barrel by the Naxals, but they can make high-intensity IEDs with it, that can easily destroy a small tank.
The witness, Subedar Hiranmay Dutta, posted at COD (Jabalpur), while deposing under oath during a Court of Inquiry (CoI) at Jabalpur, had confirmed that on November 15, 2011, three vehicles left for the demolition ground (a site where expired ammunition is destroyed by the Army) on Barela Dam, about 30 km from the depot. But only two reached the spot. The third vehicle was carrying 139 packages of ammunition. Dutta said he was surprised when the truck in which he was travelling with Subedar Rao and Havildar GSS Reddy stopped on the way to the demolition ground.

Jabalpur: Expired Army tank ammunition sold to Naxals - India News - IBNLive

 

[utubekhiladi]

NEW DELHI: Expired tank ammunition from a Central Ordnance Depot in Jabalpur has landed in the hands of Naxals. Documents accessed by Express reveal that the Army has initiated disciplinary proceedings against Lieutenant Colonel SC Pandey on charges of selling T-72 tank ammunition to a scrap dealer in Agra in November 2011.

The witness, Subedar Hiranmay Dutta, posted at COD (Jabalpur), said that in November last year, three vehicles left for the demolition ground (a site where expired ammunition is destroyed by the Army).

However, Dutta was taken aback when, en route to the demolition ground, the ammunition was off-loaded from the army truck to a civilian vehicle by 8-10 labourers. It appeared to Dutta that the civilian vehicle was already waiting for the truck at a designated spot. Dutta alleged the entire illegal transfer of ammunition was done at the behest of Lt Col Pandey, who was also in-charge of the demolition operation.

After a complaint was filed with administrative officer of the depot, Lt Col Sachin Sachdev, by 'unnamed' civilians on November 16, 2011, who noticed the suspicious movement of the Army truck loaded with ammunition, Brigadier Giriraj Singh, commandant of the depot, ordered a check and an inquiry into the issue. On November 22, 2011, Subedar Dutta was called by the inquiring officer, Major Tila Whista. Dutta blew the whistle on the smuggling of ammunition by Pandey and submitted his report to Giriraj Singh. On November 24, 2011, Dutta was asked by the commandant to investigate if the ammunition was sold to an Agra-based scrap dealer, Hazi Ayyub & Sons Traders.

Subedar Dutta later wrote in his official report: "I went to his (Hazi Ayyub's) shop in Agra and the moment he came to know that I'm from COD Jabalpur... he told me that he only deals with scrap and he does not know... which deal I was talking about. I tried to persuade him and after a lot of effort he told me that he has already disposed off that consignment to a group of Naxals from Jharkhand. He said he has received about `20,000 from the deal and it was the officer who had sold the scrap who made a hefty amount." After verifying the sensational details, Giriraj Singh confronted Pandey. "He admitted that he had disposed off the unserviceable ammunition to the metal scrap dealer based at Agra and had already received `13.5 lakh out of the `46 lakh as per the deal. Out of the received amount he had distributed `2 lakh among civilian workers," Giriraj Singh testified.

He also recorded Pandey's statement, in case he tried to retract it later. Pandey requested the Brigadier not to take any action as he would try to recover the losses. "He did not want the matter to be reported and wanted to cover up by amending the documents. He also said that he had arranged 300-400 penetrators, which is a vital part of the 125 mm that interfaced with the projectile body of the ammunition, from Shree Ganga Nagar in Rajasthan," Singh added in his summary of evidence.

This, in itself, is another shocker on how the officer could arrange penetrators with such ease as they are strictly held in the custody of the Army. What was even more shocking is that Giriraj Singh has faced no censure, despite the fact that the irregularities took place under his command. A questionnaire sent to the Army by Express on this and other issues of sale of ammunition has gone unanswered.

Given the alarming statement of a crucial witness on the handing over of the ammunition to Naxals, it was imperative for the Army to inform the Ministry of Home Affairs. The Army has so far remained silent.

Agra scrap dealer sold ammunition to Naxals | Army | Naxals | The New Indian Express

 

[utubekhiladi]

i think there is a big conspiracy is going on.

somebody is cooking something

 

[GUNS-N- ROSES]

the guilty should be charged with "waging war against state and treason" for they have blood of many personnel on their hands.

 

[utubekhiladi]

he deserves punishments worst than kasab.

 

[lemontree]

Disgraceful, the concerned officer should go to jail.

However, the picture being shown in the IE news article is of .315 inch rimmed rifle ammo, used in civilian hunting rifles.

 

[sayareakd]

they should test these expired ammo on officers who were responsible to destroy it. That will serve quick justice to us.

 

[Ray]

Ir shows that there are bad and also good people around.

If this is true, Pandey should be locked up for life.

The standards of officer recruitment has gone down to the pits.

If the standards have not gone down, the ethos has surely gone down.

Isolate the Armed Forces from the influence of 5 star glitz and the attitude of 'keeping up with the Joneses', as was the norm before!

Treachery seems to be a new phenomenon.

 

[bhramos]

This is common, even police sells the seized weapons and ammo to naxals...

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Under whose power these things are done..

 

[Archer]

DRDO provide Indian Ammo on T-90S..

DRDO provide Indian Ammo for T-72M1 as well..

No, not really.

A lot of rubbish has been posted on this topic by some other gents, posturing as informed and then the usual pointless rants. Instead lets get to the facts.

India was originally reliant on Russian FSAPDS for the T-72 which we procured along with the tank.

The lack of local ammunition for the tank fleet was regarded as a critical limitation so the DRDO was the initiator of FSAPDS capability at OFB, by setting up the HAPP (Heavy Alloys Penetrator Project) at OFB Trichy, which made even the crucial KE tungsten dart. The first FSAPDS were made for the 105mm Armed Vickers MBT (license made in India as the Vijayanta), followed by the 125mm for the T-72 and 120 mm projects for the Arjun.

Hence, the DRDO developed the 125mm Softcore ammunition (MK1) which was manufactured by OFB. While the overall design was DRDOs, the OFB was responsible for the sourcing of stuff like the propellant, and the production.

The OFB contracted for propellant from a Russian manufacturer in bulk & it was this which leaked. This because a) the rounds in question did not have adequate packaging to prevent leakage - heavy packaging in turns means the rounds get bulky and would not fit into the T-72 breech b) The propellant was not designed for the temperatures we face in India c) The Army, lacking any temperature conditioned facilities for its rounds, has many of its rounds are stored outside in either open lots (with tents) or in facilities, where as is typical in North India, the mercury really shoots up.

Coming back to the event, the leakage of propellant meant that a portion of the rounds were deemed unserviceable, segregated - with one portion to be re manufactured, the rest destroyed.

Meanwhile, the Army had also ordered several thousand rounds of Israeli 125mm FSAPDS rounds as a Kargil top up for the T-72.
On evaluating these against the earlier local MK1 rounds, the Israeli rounds had better performance as they had been developed later. The Israelis promised TOT as well. So the Army suggested that these be license manufactured with TOT. The Army though this was an easy solution to the quality issue with the OFB rounds and now all would be well. They suggested this to the MOD, and that was that.

So the MOD stopped the production of the DRDO penetrators at HAPP, had OFB production of the entire MK1 round shifted to the ostensible production of the Israeli 125mm rounds & these were to be be the future mainstay of the Army. In reality, this has not been ideal. There have been production issues with even these rounds, and the rate has not been slow and not upto meeting IA requirements for topping up its reserves.

The penetrator blanks are supplied by IMI, machined by OFB, and then assembled into rounds. The Israeli designation for this round is the CL3254M. Indian Army publicly refers to it as AMK-340A.

So the Army had stocks slowly built up of these rounds but which were also used up in live fire exercises and the like. We are now informed that the MOD considers this IMI deal and several others negotiated during the period, to have been tainted with corruption.

Meanwhile, citing the acquisition of the T-80 UD by Pakistan, the Army then purchased the T-90S. This induction too was conducted in a hamfisted manner, with several crucial steps including QA of systems such as the Thermal sight etc missing. We are paying for those today.

The T-90 tanks came with the BM-42 round (projectile assembly BM-17). The Army calls this round the AMK-339. The Russians arm twisted the Army and refused to provide the source codes for the ballistic computer on the T-90S, for India to use the AMK-340A/IMI rounds. As a result of which these tanks continue to use the BM-42.

Future T-90S built in India may be able to use Indian or Israeli rounds because the MOD asked DRDO/TATA to develop a 1:1 replacement for the original Russian Ballistic Computer, using the experience gained with developing the Arjun Ballistic Computer - both hardware and software. You'd have seen the pictures of it displayed at the recent Defexpo.

Basically, till this makes its appearance on local tanks and is retrofitted to Russian supplied kit/ tanks, we are limited to the BM-42. This round itself is just about sufficient for todays needs and is not cutting edge. Its functional, thats about it. This round can however be used for both T-72 and T-90s, and we are to order 66,000 of them after ordering some 10,000 earlier.

The blacklisting of IMI means that our supply of AMK-340A has now stopped and we are now clearly dependent on Russia for these older AMK-339s.

The Army solution to the possible issues with AMK-339 keeping pace with more heavily armoured Pakistani/Chinese tanks which may appear in the future, is to purchase huge stocks of INVAR UBK-20 missiles. Equipped with a tandem warhead, the hope is these will still allow us to defeat enemy armor.

Meanwhile, the one good news is that DRDO, despite having no firm GSQR to develop a MK2 version of their round, were stubborn and went ahead and sanctioned an own project to develop one anyhow. The Army demurred and was initially not interested.

Finally, sense seems to have prevailed, and they started taking an interest in the project after the first tranche of rounds were developed and the MOD approached them to have trials.

The first 30 odd rounds were put through AUCRT, improvements suggested, improved rounds developed, and 500 rounds were then cleared for further tests sometime last year. This MK2 round development, once finalized, now offers us the capability to restart our own 125mm FSAPDS line and move away from limited value license manufacture.

The performance of these rounds will be at the very least equal or better to the AMK-340As, which in turn were a bit better than those of the AMK-339 based on public, published information

The situation is pretty similar to how DRDO's BMCS has come as a possible solution for the Nalanda project. Bi Modular Charge Systems (think charges which can be loaded sequentially into a gun to get the range required) which were to be used with our upgraded 130 mm guns and the existing Bofors. The project went nowhere, facilities remained empty, and ultimately IMI got blacklisted. Now the local BMCS is in trials, if it passes, the entire complex will be fitted out on our own for series/volume production.

Anyhow, that is where the situation is today. FSAPDS manufacture for instance remains pretty tricky, even apart from design & development, and making our own penetrators end to end is important. Not just assembling rounds like several countries do, with the core penetrator being provided by others. The ARDE MK2 could be a possible solution, provided OFB/HAPP can handle the complexity.

 

[Archer]

"A lot of rubbish has been posted on this topic by some other gents, posturing as informed and then the usual pointless rants. Instead lets get to the facts."

Referring to some gents from the media/retd analysts etc who have used this topic to again eat our heads on TV - as versus finding solutions. The ideal thing would have been to pressurize the MOD to ask about whats being done for the future. Instead, no questions were asked around this. The answer seems to be - we will speed up orders, so everythings fine.

 

[Spindrift]

And i was under the impression that only the Chinese are supplying our friendly neighborhood Naxals with arms and ammo

 

[Adux]

If this was a muslim, this whole board will be ringing 'I told you so'