Indian Tank Ammunition Scenario

[ace009]

I think it is a combination of Fuck-ups from the

1. Indian Army, who do not take good care of their logistics - both in terms of storage as well as inventory management

2. The OFB - which has low quality control and poor manufacturing procedures

3. MoD in temrs of procurement - which is still looking over the ghosts of Bofors and blacklisting any western company even smelling of graft (while Russians get away scott free).

As for tank shells and rockets, it is wise to keep a large stock (and WELL MAINTAINED), in preparation for war with Pakistan.

 

[agentperry]

they(IA) are getting into large no of wargames across all regions with one or more Indian army corps involved at any point of time and also roping in foreign armies. im sure planners wouldnt had thought of it at first place so when the reserve actually fell they got a wake up call.

 

[arya]

ahh what a news , our enemy was just laughing on us

we dont have sufficent artilery guns, fighter planes,AC,sub,tank ammo, ............


i heard one line in usa , if you really want to see GOD then go to India because India is running by GOD

 

[Ray]

Some thing is very wrong, OFB supply Ammo to all T-tanks in India, I have seen OFB shells myself..

How come they are under shortage ?

There is a thing they called 'slippages'.

OFB is famous for the same!

Also, should we say there is more than what meets the eye?

 

[Ray]

ahh what a news , our enemy was just laughing on us

we dont have sufficent artilery guns, fighter planes,AC,sub,tank ammo, ............


i heard one line in usa , if you really want to see GOD then go to India because India is running by GOD

It is not God.

It is Swiss banks!

Conjecture!

How can there be any shortages in ammunition (amn)?

There is no war and all expenditure for training is as per laid down scale that can be annually expended.

If in the MARS inspection there is a huge lot of amn declared unserviceable, then there should be some damned good reason and heads should roll!

I daresay not much is declared unserviceable by MARS since the storage of amn is under controlled conditions.

 

[JayATL]

This information does not look good coming on the heels of yet another shocking info that india has NO RADARS ON THE CHINESE FRONT!

 

[p2prada]

I recollect reading 80 thousand OFB tank rounds were waster becuase of some manufacturing defects and they had to be thrown leading to crores of losses , the tank shell had the tendency to blow off when it was fired and the tank crew were shit scared to use it , couple of them lost their life using it.

Its a case of criminal negligence but no one will sue OFB for it

[sarcasm]Did you forget, Indian industry is infallible? No one can sue DRDO, NAL, HAL, OFB etc over decade long delays and major manufacturing defects. If you do sue them then you are not a true Indian. You are just sold to some Russian company with a bottle of Vodka and Natasha.[/sarcasm]

Why Indian Army use for excercises combat ammunition and not practice ammunition?

BTW, about these accidents, so there were explosions and cook-off of ammunition inside T-72 and possibly T-90 tanks?

I heard and seen similiar accidents in Russia, IRCC some crews were dead, not good informations.

This was explained in the T-90 thread in my discussion with Archer. The OFB designed a shell using a Romanian penetrator and Russian propellant. The propellant would leak at high temperatures. So, when fired from tanks, the shell wouldn't move. It freezes. The shell explodes in the barrel itself, thereby killing the crew.

I am not sure about the reasons for accidents in Russia. It won't be the same as this issue happened in our deserts, hot temperatures.

It is very strange that propelant leaked from bags, strange and unacceptabale, someone should be punished for such fucked up situation.

[sarcasm]Then you would be sold to Russian Vodka and Natasha. The Army is corrupt you see. OFB is a saint compared to that.[/sarcasm]

 

[p2prada]

It is not God.

How can there be any shortages in ammunition (amn)?

There was no shortage. Bad design meant the shells had to be destroyed and reordered. The second lot of orders haven't come through because the company which sold us the penetrators has been blacklisted.

If in the MARS inspection there is a huge lot of amn declared unserviceable, then there should be some damned good reason and heads should roll!

I daresay not much is declared unserviceable by MARS since the storage of amn is under controlled conditions.

Who's gonna roll who's head? Status Quo will be maintained. Probably some General who stole some tents will be blamed for a 10000 Crore scam by the media for no apparent reason.

There is a thing they called 'slippages'.

OFB is famous for the same!

Also, should we say there is more than what meets the eye?

Sir, it is obvious most of the problems come with bad design or bad manufacturing which are recurrent in our defence industry. But it is very easy to blame the Army for the problems.

Nothing meets the eye. Everything goes into the mouth, through the arse and comes down right on the user(services).

Till date there is not a single major system developed which was delivered on time whenever DRDO or OFB was involved outside of our missile program.

 

[ace009]

Even more reason to open up India's defense industry to the private sector - hell privatise most of the public companies - like HAL, NAL, OFB and do it ASAP.

As for being sold to Russians and Natasha - tell me this P2Prada ...

Why is it that none of the Russian companies are blacklisted EVEN after significant delays, cost overruns, TOT refusals, bribery attempts (remember the Indian naval officer in charge of Gorshky?) and generally acting like pricks to Indian services (Russian Navy refusing to participate in war-games with India).

I think you and a lot of Indians have this hangover from cold war days that Russia is good and our very good friend and the west is bad.

Again, for the umpteenth time - Russia is just another supplier nation - same as Israel, France - maybe slightly better than USA in terms of dependability.

As for Indian defense industry - it is still not great - but it is improving, which is important for a country the size of India - to have an in-house independant defense industry. The next level of improvement should come with privatization - at least partially ...

 

[p2prada]

Why is it that none of the Russian companies are blacklisted EVEN after significant delays, cost overruns, TOT refusals, bribery attempts (remember the Indian naval officer in charge of Gorshky?)

The argument was that the Sevmash and Indian authorities failed at even contemplating the scale of the project. The project had no competition and who would they bribe. They knew India will buy the carrier anyway. Also a little while later the costs escalated once IN asked for much superior digital electronics as compared to Analog that was initially agreed upon. So, there were other changes apart from the failure at gauging the scale of the wiring required. Wiring alone pushed the costs by Hundred of Millions.

and generally acting like pricks to Indian services (Russian Navy refusing to participate in war-games with India).

Diplomatic incident. Who will you blacklist for this? Russian govt or Russian Navy?

I think you and a lot of Indians have this hangover from cold war days that Russia is good and our very good friend and the west is bad.

No they aren't. But they can be trusted to deliver as long as we pay them. Unlike with the US we don't have any conflicting interests.

Again, for the umpteenth time - Russia is just another supplier nation - same as Israel, France - maybe slightly better than USA in terms of dependability.

Russia with it's communist govt is very predictable when it comes to relations. The US govt is fickle due to it's democratic nature. Putin is very good for us anyway.

As for Indian defense industry - it is still not great - but it is improving, which is important for a country the size of India - to have an in-house independant defense industry. The next level of improvement should come with privatization - at least partially ...

DPSUs are R&D based industries and there is not a single private company who will dirty their hands with R&D. Let's not forget that we have only a few product based companies and they are too big to be bothered about DPSUs. We have a few like L&T and TATA, but who knows what will happen. Privatization will be good as long as people are ready to invest.

 

[DMF]

India has to buy many things, little surprised me. So the friends in this forum should vote to select a good person as your leader. India is such a big country, must depend on her self, right? But you can't elect a correct person as your leader, right?

 

[Dovah]

India has to buy many things, little surprised me. So the friends in this forum should vote to select a good person as your leader. India is such a big country, must depend on her self, right? But you can't elect a correct person as your leader, right?

We can't elect the right person, true...but can you guys elect anyone at all?

 

[nrj]

This information does not look good coming on the heels of yet another shocking info that india has NO RADARS ON THE CHINESE FRONT!

Hey stop posting wrong information!

Solved for you Shocking! No radars over China frontier, confirms IAF chief - Page 4

--

New powerful ammo comes with new tech in older Tank guns too, that need to be noted too..

Spot on!

 

[Armand2REP]

A Russian entity is said to have come forward but has quoted a price that is roughly 400 per cent higher than usual taking the cost beyond Rs1000 crore. This high quote had the Defence Acquisition Committee in a spot since the Russian firm is said to have been unwilling to accept the offset policy's 30 per cent condition.

Result: the government last week exempted the deal from the offsets policy.

Everyone else has to pay offsets and blacklisted at first sign but Russia gets off free everytime to rape Indian coffers. It is time to break this unhealthy relationship with a backwards MIC.

 

[p2prada]

Everyone else has to pay offsets and blacklisted at first sign but Russia gets off free everytime to rape Indian coffers. It is time to break this unhealthy relationship with a backwards MIC.

It cannot be helped if the company has pure monopoly over something so critical. It is so stupid that we don't have an equivalent shell for replacement.

Only companies proven to be corrupt are blacklisted. The Russian company is selling their wares at a cost which is not acceptable, but there is little we can do about it unless IMI is removed from the blacklist. Other than that what they are doing isn't illegal for blacklisting. It's just business where one side wins.

 

[Storm shadow]

The argument was that the Sevmash and Indian authorities failed at even contemplating the scale of the project. The project had no competition and who would they bribe. They knew India will buy the carrier anyway. Also a little while later the costs escalated once IN asked for much superior digital electronics as compared to Analog that was initially agreed upon. So, there were other changes apart from the failure at gauging the scale of the wiring required. Wiring alone pushed the costs by Hundred of Millions.



Diplomatic incident. Who will you blacklist for this? Russian govt or Russian Navy?



No they aren't. But they can be trusted to deliver as long as we pay them. Unlike with the US we don't have any conflicting interests.



Russia with it's communist govt is very predictable when it comes to relations. The US govt is fickle due to it's democratic nature. Putin is very good for us anyway.



DPSUs are R&D based industries and there is not a single private company who will dirty their hands with R&D. Let's not forget that we have only a few product based companies and they are too big to be bothered about DPSUs. We have a few like L&T and TATA, but who knows what will happen. Privatization will be good as long as people are ready to invest.

It cannot be helped if the company has pure monopoly over something so critical. It is so stupid that we don't have an equivalent shell for replacement.

Only companies proven to be corrupt are blacklisted. The Russian company is selling their wares at a cost which is not acceptable, but there is little we can do about it unless IMI is removed from the blacklist. Other than that what they are doing isn't illegal for blacklisting. It's just business where one side wins.

Do we even have the source code of the ballistic computers used in T 90S??Most probably not.So there are no ways ARDE or even IMI will be able to produce the FSAPDS rounds for T 90S tanks.

 

[Damian]

Do we even have the source code of the ballistic computers used in T 90S??Most probably not.So there are no ways ARDE or even IMI will be able to produce the FSAPDS rounds for T 90S tanks.

T-90S ballistic computer needs a source code for ammunition data update?!

In NATO tanks everything is stored on some sort of data cards, if You have different ammo You just swap a data card and choose ammunition in ballistic computer... well at least this is how it looks in M1 series, should look in Challenger 2, because it use FCS based on M1 FCS and it should look that way in Leo2.

But why the hell there would be a need a source code for such operation?! This actually prevents any ammunition changes in case of emergency situation.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Do we even have the source code of the ballistic computers used in T 90S??Most probably not.So there are no ways ARDE or even IMI will be able to produce the FSAPDS rounds for T 90S tanks.

DRDO provide Indian Ammo on T-90S..

DRDO provide Indian Ammo for T-72M1 as well..

 

[Singh]

New Delhi: The India army is seriously short of ammunition, and in the event of war, it may run out of stocks in two days. This has been highlighted in a letter written by Army Chief General VK Singh to Defence Minister AK Antony, reported by the Indian Express.
It also warns of shortages in artillery and air defence ammunition and says that the blacklisting of firms has contributed to the situation.
With reports hinting at cuts in defence spending in the next budget, the army may well see further degradation of its capability.

This comes even as China has announced that it will increase its military spending by 11.2 per cent in 2012. According to an official spokesperson, China will spend nearly 106.4 billion dollars on defence in 2012. The country has witnessed double-digit rises in the defence budget across the last two decades.

Indian army running short of ammunition: General VK Singh - India News - IBNLive

 

[Kunal Biswas]

And we cannot spend the whole defense budget and returning it back..

Infantry is fine but same cannot be said about Armour,AD and others..