Problems with Indian T-90s

ersakthivel

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Now the dark side of T-90 purchase is coming out in open. The formidable Russian tank is showing its lack of high potential for which the Indian Army has been pushing for its future purchase. Now the Generals of not too distant past era (2000-13) are probably sheepish that they have been discouraging the introduction of Arjun Tanks - Mark 1 & 2 on flimsy grounds. It is heartening to note that some of the Arjun technology is going to be used in the existing 600, T-90 tanks.

Is it possible that because of these problems in T-90, the Arjun, 1& 2 will get a push?

Not likely. Admitting an error in judgement in the matter T-90 purchases is not Indian Army's way of moving forward. They would continue to insist that civilian procurement process made a bad deal, although the Army whole heartedly approved the earlier T-90 deal. So where is the civilian authority's fault? I can give you one or two examples i.e. by not asking for air conditioning and the transfer of technology for the barrel written in the contract were grounds enough to hold the final payment. Since it was not written, the Russian were ahead, they got their price they asked for and wrote an intellectual property rights clause in which they would not let any part of the equipment without their express approval, changed

All the forgoing problems in the contracts are not new. Russians, Americans, British, Germans, Swedes etc. negotiate the same terms and conditions. They need the future upgrade business, which is more lucrative. Moreover, T-90 negotiations were over shadowed by the Pakistani purchase of T-80 Tanks from Ukraine. For India the T-90 tank is far superior and air conditioning was not an issue in cold countries like Russia. The Indian Generals forgot about these issues at the negotiating table or during the procurement contract work. Now they are blaming the civilians for that.

But the Russians did well in these contracts. They somehow (may be bribing the Generals) ensured that future supply of another 1,000 tanks would continue. That is where the problem is. Now the Generals are stuck in the existing inventory of T-90 tanks and to continue the additional supply or break free and instead order the Arjun 1 & 2.

The Indian Army has tried its best to disapprove the Arjun 1 & 2 Tanks for one reason or other. Sometime they said its weight is too high, other time they faulted its reliability, at one time they disapproved its engine. But the DRDO in a relentless pursuit together the civilian authorities kept at and kept on improving the performance of the Arjun Tank. Now it has come out ahead of T-90. Realising that they would be forced to buy Arjuns, they wish to incorporate all those improvements which pre-exist in Arjuns into their T-90s into their possession.

Now the Army has backed itself into a corner i.e. - whether to continue to disapprove the Arjuns as they had in the past or switch to Arjuns and place the future 1,000 tanks order with DRDO. This battle will continue for some time.

Its solution is not far off. The existing cream of Armoured Corps Generals who favor T-90 is about to retire. The civilian leadership is about to undergo a change after the May 2014 elections. The new government may insist on Arjuns. That will leave very little room for Generals to argue about. A compromise of improved technology to manufacture Arjuns would clinch the issue. The latter would improve the quality, which the army has been highlighting. The same had been overdue for a while.

The above formulae would be followed in many other upcoming imports.
T-90 is nothing but a T-72 upgrade, that s why the russian army is not buying them in thousands like the IA.

it would be surprising to kn ow that IA is the largest buyer of t-90s in the world.

External AC mountings are filmsy solutions. It will be the first to be hit and fail in the first day of battle.

the cramped interiors of T-90 will encure heat build up and all the electronics will fail.

Even the much thrashed around Bofors gun did its duty and had no quality issues, But T-90 is simply unfit to operate in indian summer conditions,

Why the IA is approaching DRDO now is because no other country is operating such a large number of T-90s no one is willing to split their hair over how to make T-90 operate in inidan summer conditions in a reliable manner(there is no way is another thing for another thread!!!)

SO now the favourite whipping boy DRDO is being dragged into this unholy scam.

If no solutions are found then IA and arms import lobby will trash DRDO to no end, saying it is unfit even to solve the problems in an existing tank, then how can it make a reliable tank in Arjun.

Like HAL did in flatly refusing to assemble pliatus throwing muck in the face of imported air force, DRDO should simply wiggle away from this.Otherwise it is going to be blamed for any failure in T-90s.

Then only will GOI will investigate who approved such a scam tainted purchase with no proper t-90 summer trials.

otherwise every one responsible for the scam called T-90 purchase will escape making DRDO accountable for the failures of T-90.

then all of the T-9's faults like

So here is the list of issues with T90S

1. They didnt sold us Fire control source code
2. No tech for armor (OFB has to use Kanchan for Arjun tank)
3. Gun tech was not give.
4. No AC (DRDO has to make AC)
5. Issue with Thermal sight.
6. No APU.
7. Issues with missile firing earlier (dont know what happen) (even otherwise it does not give any advantage over what Pakistan have)
8. Navigational system.
9. Ammo price 3-4 times then what was sold earlier.
10. No active protection system.
So except for engine and auto loader, you are looking at brand new tank made by DRDO.......................and we paid top $$$ through trials conducted by our DGMF.............:mad:
will be thrust on the head of DRDO. Because DDMs will start writing that DRDO is unable to solve the T-90 problem.

DDM will think that fitting an Ac and combat qualifying it is just like fitting a split AC in their bed room.

Then all the troubles of misfiring missiles of T-90 will be attributed to the inadequate cooling systems of DRDO.

And the people responsible for buying T-90 will go scortfree.

A better solution is to sell the T-90s in service to other nations that does not have high desert summer conditions in second hand sale in a phased manner and prepare for a major Arjun induction.


there is no point in producing another thousand T-90s that will need improvised solutions from DRDO, (whose tank Arjun is rejected by IA on all filmsy grounds!!! in favor of the same t-90 that needs DRDO help!!!)
 
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Blood+

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Nope. T-90 has better armor, and better placed armor. It is 100% confirmed that even the 1980s ammo for T-90s are better than what's available for Arjun. The gun on T-90 is also more powerful. All of the above is validated already.

An interview with three top army officials on Defence Line also confirmed this.They agree that the T-90 has better night firing capabilities.
You can not prove any of your tall claims.I,have been,following this forum since quite some time and I know what kind of a 'person' you really are, so spare us your rhetorics.

There is in no way T 90S has better night firing capabilities....PERIOD.

And wrt your tall claims on T 90S having better armor - PROVE IT.Give us the chart showing what kind of materials in what quantities went into both systems and then talk .And if you can't (which I know you can not by the way),then don't bother replying to my comment.
 

Kunal Biswas

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If Arjun is so incapable tank and that too in such a small number, ISI wouldn't care to even know abt its status ..

There is no reason for enemy intel to risk its own valuable assents ' like this traitor ' to gather such information about Arjun ..

This exposure should open our eyes, And i believe our scientific community should get similar protection as politicians ..

They are on list of terrorist, ISI and foreign competing companies specially Russians lobby and its goons ..

==============

Btw, Welcome back ..

They don't have a tank to counter Arjun right now and ,

so if they are planning for armor thrusts it is better for them to avoid the areas where Arjun is deployed as ,
 

ersakthivel

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There are some +600 T-90 operational in IA, Not 1000 ..

Out of those 600, 300 of the first batch are older version, The rest are made in India but have issues :

Malfunctioning Thermal sight for commander, Lack APU, It lack AC and it lack AP rounds ..

================

The rest 1000 are projected to be made in India, Which is not started as stated in article and as per OFB admin at the factory, That is again because only 40% of tot is shared by Russians, I hope it get scraped ..

Where as Arjun MK1 so does MK2 has no issues, MK1 already proved it superiority over T-90 in trails ..



================

I would like to add a fact, Recently in my Delhi tour i meet my old friends, They are all from Armour unit and operate T-90 Bhishma, They are not exactly happy with it, One of them did said that If a T-90 get damage, They have to canablised others to make the damage one work, T-90 reputation is not as bright as spoken high in media ..

Russian lobby is trying its best as always to kill National product, Its good for there business and coffin for our Crews ..
Not its up to your mind, You like to stick with your view or think abt the grim situation ..
In recent trials it was found out that SMERCH can not operate reliably in temperature above 32 degrees,

And now ,"COOLING SOLUTIONS " are proposed by russians at the cost of indian tax payers.
 

navkapu

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None of the Blogs or Forums talk of the main T90 issue. What you read is really the tip of the iceberg...... serious issues are classified
There is a dedicated thread at DFI regarding, T-90 missile firing fiasco ..

You can read that thread up ..

================

Tot was involved on almost all the parts of the tank, Read up the first post of the thread, Only 40% is given till date ..
 

Kunal Biswas

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There will be more people from Armed forces come forward to tell, I welcome this article as most of the things told by Serving officials ..

T-90S scam is perhaps largest in Indian history since 1947 ..

None of the Blogs or Forums talk of the main T90 issue. What you read is really the tip of the iceberg...... serious issues are classified
 

Kunal Biswas

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Re-posting article for more crystal view on the topic ..

NEW DELHI — The Indian Army will upgrade more than 600 Russian-built T-90 tanks by adding new features and replacing their thermal imaging sights, navigation systems and fire control systems at a cost of more than $250 million.which will be developed by India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The tanks' existing armor protection systems, navigation gear, thermal imaging sights and fire control systems will be replaced.

"DRDO had earlier attempted to mount air conditioning systems on the tanks, but were stopped by Russia, citing intellectual property rights," said Arun Sehgal, a retired Army brigadier general and defense analyst.

"The Russians were then asked to fit the air conditioning systems in the T-90 tanks, but the attempt was unsuccessful," Sehgal said. The intellectual property rights issue has since been resolved between India and Russia.

Another Army official said, "The thermal imaging system of the T-90 tanks were faulty from the initial stage."

Rahul Bhonsle, another retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst, said, "A major part of the proposed upgrade will include providing an enhanced fire control potential because in the comparative trials between the Arjun and T-90 tanks last year, the Arjun had demonstrated a superior sighting system than the Russian tank."

The indigenous production of about 1,000 additional T-90s has been contracted, but production has not yet begun.

"The Russians have not provided full-scale [intellectual property rights] and are withholding some critical designs; thus, full-scale indigenization has been held up in Avadi," Bhonsle said.

An official of the Ordnance Factory Board, which administers the Avadi factory, said the Russians have supplied only 40 percent of the technology and nearly none since 2008. â– 


Source : Indian Army To Upgrade T-90 Tanks With Domestic Help | Defense News | defensenews.com

=======================

Since this article is latest and quoted official words so does mentioning there Posts, It holds more light into the situation ..

There is nothing going to change this, Its only will expose more SCAMED Russian hardware in Armed forces ..

As time goes, More will come and expose such scams ..
 

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All you told make sence but it doesn't mean Arjun has no place in Indian Army.There is atleast 1500 of T55s,Vixkers and very old T 72Ms which needs to be replaced and they can be replaced with some 800+ Arjun variants.

And wrt the the weak spot behind the GMS,yes that is one unfortunately.But if we go by @Kunal's words,then the ~440mm behind GMS is constructed of a solid HHS block with mass efficiency of 1.5 which should give an RHA value of ~650mm against kinetic energy rounds.Of course against SC,it will remain ~420mm.

And wrt hybrid armor,as far as I've understood the DRDO guys were talking about adding additional integrated NERA/NExRA dynamic elements into the existing armor type to provide it with some degree of multi hit resistance capabilities with possible addition of heavy materials(??)
But iIrc DMRL and HEMRL had finished the development of this so called hybrid armor by the end of the previous year itself and it was meant to be fitted to Arjun MkII and late production batches of T 90S - what happened to that??
 
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Kunal Biswas

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This thread is about T-90 deficiencies and not Arjun`s ..

Lets stick to the topic ..
 

Kunal Biswas

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There are now 1500 T-72M1, From which 1000 are out of commission and canabalised for rest 500 tanks, There are some +600 T-90 from which half of them cannot fire Missiles and all have Night blindness due to malfunctioning thermal sight even today ..

There is a place for at least 1300 tanks where Arjun can be fit in..

All you told make sence but it doesn't mean Arjun has no place in Indian Army.There is atleast 1500 of T55s,Vixkers and very old T 72Ms which needs to be replaced and they can be replaced with some 800+ Arjun variants.
 

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The current armored regiments stand at 63...i.e. at 62 tanks a regiment, comes out to be 3906 tanks ( 3465 is regiments now hold 55 tanks) . Assuming 1600 T-90S, This should imply that we have most, if not all T-72 regiments operational as of now. (It is another matter of debate as to what the word operational implies for the T-72.)

Again, as far as I know, the T90MS being talked about for NE theatre (around 5-6 regiments) will be in addition to the existing ones, and not be a replacement. So the regiments will likely increase to 67-68, an upscaling.

Further on, with the army reserves and tanks with the Army engineer Corps, the number of tanks comes out to be around 5000, which unless downsized, will also be the future strength of the tanks.

Under such massive requirements, by 2020, just 1600 T-90S+354T-90MS+500 T-72+248 Arjun wont suffice for even 45 armored regiments, way short of current levels. As such, and with anticipated delays in FMBT project, it is nearly inevitable that more Arjuns will have to be ordered to maintain the desired strength
 
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ersakthivel

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what do you understand by upgrade?

1.Does upgraded T-72 has more LOS armor than the previous one?

2. Does the upgraded T-72 has network centric capabilities vital for modern day battle?

3.Does upgraded T-72 can protect crew from simple land mine explosion cooking off the ammo lying strewn all over the floor?

4.Can it fire missiles through the barrel?

Answer to all the above question is simply a BIG NO.

upgraded means they are in running conditions. When army can not match the night vision device supplied by french to the FCS of T-90 till now,

How will be the FCS of t-72 integrated with the nightvision devices that are going to be bought ? Who is going to them and what is the cost?

So when one says upgrades don't get excited. No upgrade can change the basic obsolete nature of t-72.

The army's continued fiddlings with obsolete T-72s and not in desert summer working conditions T-90 , while not giving substantial order for Arjun mk-1 citing bogus weight issue is a scam and nothing less.

the T-90 and Arjun both will need the same bridging equipment to cross the 40 ton weight british era bridges. So how come the army keep on buying t-90s which have serious issues in summer desert battles?
 

Kunal Biswas

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India's main battle tank the T72 is in bad shape. An internal audit report of the army which says that about 900 T-72 tanks are inoperational or unreliable, all because their overhaul is far behind schedule. The security implications are huge because without the T72 tank India's tank regiments find themselves at a great disadvantage.
Source : Army saddled with unreliable tanks-News-Exclusives-TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos

==============

Online streaming ..


I do not agree with this as per ak antony entire fleet of t72 tank is battle worhy and operational .I don't know how to highlightbut posting where he had said this in loksabha.And current operational t72 are 1800 which have been or are being fully upgraded thermal sight included.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Army proposes to scrap Future Main Battle Tank: instead build successive models of the Arjun

Three important realizations drive the DGMF's new proposal. Firstly, there is growing acceptance of the Arjun, after its strong performance in field trials. Secondly, the need for an industrial "eco-structure" for providing spares and maintenance backup for the Arjuns that are already operating. This would come up only if a viable number of tanks are in service. Finally, the DGMF believes that there are no recent breakthrough technologies in armoured vehicle design, which eliminates the logic for building an entirely new tank.
Source : Broadsword: Army proposes to scrap Future Main Battle Tank: instead build successive models of the Arjun

Now to you and all INDIA WITH ITS LIMITED RESOURCES HAS TWO OPTION AT PRESENT "MASS PRODUCTION OF ARJUN MK2 OR DEVELOPMENT AND PRODUCTION OF FMBT "

I CHOOSE DEVELOPMENT AND MASS PRODUCTION OF FMBT
 

Kunal Biswas

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It has more or less same situation as T-90 have ..

Both tanks are unable to fire missiles, Both tanks have night vision issues, Both tanks are less of an APU, More or less again both are good for reserve duties or storage ..

what do you understand by upgrade?

1.Does upgraded T-72 has more LOS armor than the previous one?

2. Does the upgraded T-72 has network centric capabilities vital for modern day battle?

3.Does upgraded T-72 can protect crew from simple land mine explosion cooking off the ammo lying strewn all over the floor?

4.Can it fire missiles through the barrel?

Answer to all the above question is simply a BIG NO.
 

Kunal Biswas

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T-90 tank: Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewall

Here is what happened. After the T-90S contract was signed on 15th Jan 2001, the 310 made-in-Russia tanks began to flow in quickly from Uralvagonzavod, the Russian facility that builds them. But the transfer of technology (ToT) and the supply of assemblies for building the 1000 tanks in India quickly hit a Russian stonewall.

First it took one and a half years to transfer to India the ToT documents required for building the T-90S in India. The tonnes of documents that finally arrived were found to be in Russian; translating them into English took another one and a half years.

Then HVF officials discovered that Russia had withheld key T-90S technologies without valid reason. This included technology for crucial components like the tank's main gun and a key section of the turret armour. When New Delhi demanded those technologies, Moscow blandly responded that they were secret. To this day, Russia has not transferred full technology for building the T-90S in India.

The MoD has not responded to emailed questions about this issue. But when Business Standard asked MSN Rao, General Manager of HVF Avadi, how the T-90S was being built without these technologies, he confirmed: "We developed the tank gun indigenously in Central Ordnance Depot, Kanpur, and the turret armour component in CVRDE (Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment), Avadi. This is still a sticking point between India and Russia."

An Indian Army officer who voiced his frustration to his Russian counterparts recalls the taunting Russian response: "Starting T-72 production took you 10 years. How do you imagine that you will produce the T-90 in just 6-7 years?"

The Thales-Optronika thermal imaging night sights supplied with the T-90S --- essential for firing tank weapons at night --- proved unable to function in the blistering desert summer. This remains a problem; in 2008 the MoD approached international vendors to air-condition the T-90S.

During that crisis with Pakistan, the army also discovered that the T-90S sights were not calibrated to Indian tank ammunition, which was falling well short of the targets that it was fired at. A panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90S's fire control computer to Indian ammunition. Meanwhile, shiploads of tank rounds were ordered from Russia at great cost.

T-90S's Invar missile, earlier cited as a clinching reason for buying the tank. But the Invar missiles that came were unusable and they were quietly returned to Russia. On 2nd March 2006, Antony told Parliament, "The Invar missile on T-90 tank is not a failure. However, the completely knocked down kits received for assembly have been found to be defective."

Source : Broadsword: T-90 tank: Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewall
 

Kunal Biswas

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T-90 Missile Woes

A dispute with Russia over technology transfer for the Invar anti-tank missile has prompted India's Bharat Dynamics Ltd. (BDL) to contact domestic companies to help develop the missile's critical guidance electronics.

The Russians refused to give India the technology for the guidance system for the missile, which will be fired from India's Russian-made T-90 tanks, despite agreeing to the transfer for licensed production of the missiles, according to a BDL official.

The Russians agreed to grant a license for production of the missile and the transfer of technology in August, when a US $470 million contract was signed, the BDL official said.

"Usually, the contract with the Russians, or for that matter the French Milan anti-tank guided missiles, includes transferring the production process, including the details like chemical composition and process for propellant and warhead," the official said. "However, in the case of the Invar missile, no technology transfer has been given for the laser beam-riding guidance."

Source : Gov't Turns to Indian Firms To Untangle T-90 Missile Woes | Defense News | defensenews.com
 

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