Indian submarine force depleting?

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by hit&run, Jan 19, 2010.

  1. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    Navy's SOS: Submarine force depleting: India Today - Latest Breaking News from India, World, Business, Cricket, Sports, Bollywood.

    A security nightmare stares the nation in the face with the Indian Navy's submarine arm in danger of losing its strength and ability to keep enemies off the country's backyard.

    Headlines Today has access to an internal note sent by the navy to the government, which warns of unthinkable scenarios for national security if corrective action is not taken quickly.

    The navy admits in the document that it's almost at its lowest ebb in terms of submarine force levels in history. And this when the Chinese seem bent upon undermining India's maritime edge.

    Former chief of naval staff Admiral Arun Prakash said the navy had been warning the government about the crisis since the early part of this decade. He said that while the government has cognizance of the matter it would be something to be very sorry about if no action was taken.

    The navy has warned that in the next few years, its submarine strength could drop from 16 submarines to five - an unthinkable prospect for maritime security planners.

    Of the 16 operational submarines currently, 10 are Russian Kilo-class submarines and four are German boats. The report warns that by 2012, only nine submarines could be active. If nothing is done to stem the tide, India could be left with just five active submarines in the coming years.

    The navy has a 30-year plan to buy or build 24 submarines. But even 10 years after the Cabinet approved the plan, not a single new submarine has entered service. Meanwhile, the navy has already initiated cases to retire two of its old Foxtrot submarines very shortly. And the first of its deadly Kilo-class submarines could be retired beginning 2013.

    Through the report, the navy's uncertainty about the Chinese is also out in the open. The document says it will not be long before extended Chinese patrols enter the Indian Navy's area of responsibility. The Chinese naval capability will prove to be a limiting factor to the other regional navies, especially the Indian Navy.

    The navy has always been suspicious about China's long-term ambitions in the Indian Ocean region. But now, those anxieties have been laid bare. The navy report paints a highly disturbing picture of what China plans to do in the Indian Ocean.

    Most ominously, these plans are already in motion. During 2009, 16 contacts were recorded with vessels suspected to be Chinese nuclear submarines on patrol outside their territorial waters.

    The Indian Navy's own network of intelligence has corroborated three of these contacts - on February 16, July 23 and August 3 last year.

    The navy report has made it clear that China has a proven deep-water ability and plans to flex more muscle in the years ahead.

    Chinese nuclear submarines are currently only testing waters in the South China Sea, outside territorial waters. But in the next three years, the Indian Navy has warned that silent Chinese submarine patrols could begin crawling through the Indian Ocean with impunity.

    China is aggressively ramping up command and control infrastructure in the Indian Ocean. This is being done to expand its influence in the zone most critical to Indian security, and in effect to encircle India.

    -With inputs from Headlines Today Bureau
     
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  3. Parashuram1

    Parashuram1 Regular Member

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    I thought that your government had purchased French submarines to compensate that. Don't tell me they are getting delayed because if that is the case, then it is a huge burden on the other branches of your Navy to hunt for the silent Chinese submarines and force them to surface. Only submarine hunter helos and planes can do that and you will need to make/ buy more till you have a befitting underwater response.
     
  4. neo29

    neo29 Senior Member Senior Member

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    This is truly a very sorry state of indian navy. with problems in production cost of the scorpene submarines, this is a disaster. it is highly necessary that india maintains a level of supremacy over indian ocean now and in future.

    now all we can do to avoid this is buy submarines from someone. for once lets forget assembling it in our country and buy it assembled from some country. probably the biggest navy US and UK can help us .
     
  5. seiko

    seiko Regular Member

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    If we want to reveive the Navy from the sorry state we have to let the French build some submarines for our force ..dont mind the cost because building in India will be time consuming and delay will occur for sure ..and also Immediately issue tender of second line of submarines and should let the respective country build first three t submarines while the infrastructure of the shipyard for building the submarine here being devaloped ...we can built all the submarines if a follow up order is placed..otherwise the gap between India and China will widen for sure .
     
  6. neo29

    neo29 Senior Member Senior Member

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    mr badguy seems to start the chinese propaganda again.

    but fact remains that most of chinese submarines are outdated. matter of fact that chinese submarines including nuclear ones do make lot of noise and are easily detectable.

    we are not in race with chinese navy. as my friend seiko says minimum deterrence has to be met. besides china is long way from indian ocean and just having ports in gwadhar , srilanka and burma wont help you out. geography helps india to control indian ocean. not to mention chinese navy has better things to do like watching taiwan and japanese waters.

    coming back to indian submarines. we must try to get the scorpene production in our docks moving. but just 6 scorpene is not enough.we should buy more scorpenes from france in assembled condition. its better someone makes for us temporarily because we may end up delaying it. we could buy type 212 from germany or swedish submarines. if not we can get them on lease for some period of time till our requirement is fulfilled. there are plenty other options and solutions to control the short fall. it may be expensive but then a important requirement for defence of our nation.

    GOI must act now before its late !!!!!!
     
  7. enlightened1

    enlightened1 Member of The Month JANUARY 2010

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  8. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    I think rather blaming GoI completely we should also give a thought about non assertive forces. If i am a worker and i know it is my responsibility to get the job done but my equipment is not up to mark i will push my employer to all possible limits.
    Rather bashing on chines quantity or quality one must think that we have more vulnerable sea now. The days when only smugglers could invade our territorial water is now a talk of fossil age. The threat is mounting every day and babus from both sides are only interested in filling their pockets.
    It getting on my nerves, we do not learn from past, we fought Alexander with bare footed army. We fought Baber with hungry stomach. Now when we can afford to upgrade, New Delhi is sleeping.
    At the end of the day a balance will be accountable if we compare quality and quantity. Can anyone ensure about the balance? Do we now how vast our oceans are and the meaning of force concentration.
     
  9. notinlove

    notinlove Regular Member

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    All i can do is be me, whoever that is.
    There is onething i would like to point out to everyone here ......
    Last night i was watching this debate on headlines today which comprised of Shiv Aroor , Admiral Vishnu bhagwat , and some stupid ass representative from congress ...there was one very vital piece of information disclosed by Adm. Bhagwat which nobody paid much attention to . He said "It is good that india has signed the deal to build six french scorpene submarines but why is the government not starting the second line of submarine production when the navy has already selected and convened to them their desire to procure a different submarine from a different vendor."
    so they sure as hell aren't scorpenes and they sure as hell aren't from DCNS.
     
  10. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    I think after finding ignorance & delays in the proposed plan from GOI for considerable amount of time, IN has made it public to kick government in PUBLIC!

    This was a very necessary step. Our babus don't work unless pressurized from public, sincerity is a huge requisite for our system.
    Now when hundreds of Qs are thrown at them, they'll pay attention.
    Same thing happened with Air Force, MMRCA, LCA Mk-1, MKI production was speeded only when Air Force threatened about the vulnerability of our sky with totally depleted squadron strength.
    Nice move IN! :goodstuff:

    To my Chinese friends:
    Face the fact, Indian Ocean belongs to us. There is very little Chinese can do even we are short of subs. You control your waters & we ours!
     
  11. bengalraider

    bengalraider DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    We often hear the point that the chinese have many submarines that are outdated but lest become complacent and forget that even counting out all the obsolete vessels in the PLAN fleet the Submarine arm of the PLAN remains numerically and(pending the arrival of the scorpene)Qualitatively superior to the IN submarine fleet, let me outline below

    As per sinodefence the PLAN submarine fleet at the end of 2009 stood at 8 SSBN's and SSN's supported by another 58 SSK's.(not discounting boats in refit or under repairs for other reasons)
    the breakup is as below

    Designation NATO 2009
    Type 094 Jin 2 in service
    Type 093 Shang 2 in service
    Type 092 Xia 1 in service
    Type 091 Han 3 in service
    Total 8 in servce

    Diesel-Electric Submarines

    Type 039A/B Yuan 4 in service(mordenised and redesigned Kilo)
    Project 636/877 Kilo 12 in service
    Type 039/G/G1 Song 16 in service
    Type 035 Ming 18 in service
    Type 033 Romeo 8 in service
    Type 031 Golf 0 in service
    Total 58

    Whereas the IN submarine strength at the end of 2009 (not discounting boats in refit or under repairs for other reasons)as per bharat-rakshak is
    SSN/SSBN
    one Arihant class(yet to be operationalized)
    SSK's
    Sindhugosh (Kilo) Class 10 in service [1 undergoing mid-life refit]
    Shishumar (HDW 209) Class 4 in service
    Kalvari (Foxtrot) Class 2 in service [1 undergoing refit ]


    i.e even if we discount the obsolete mings and romeo's the songs kilos and yuans of the PLAN still present a credible threat to our Navy, totalled the PLAN has 32 such vessels double the size of our present SSK fleet, also the Foxtrot's combat effectiveness is in doubt these vessels are on average 25+yrs old and should be replaced as early as possible. in fact if a PLAN IN naval conflict should occur today(god forbid) we would find only 12-13 submarines to take on the PLAN armada. However we find some succor in the fact that if such a nightmarish scenario does occur the PLAN would be hard pressed to find more the 15-16 odd submarines that it can deploy into the IOR(including nuclear boats)i.e the fight should be pretty much even now ;but if we let this slide continue it may not be the same in a decade or so.
     
  12. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    MOD was here

    BG, Don't bring chinese subs into this thread.
     
  13. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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    These are absolute numbers what is the serviceability rate?
     
  14. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    [mod]Folks, don't go off-topic and bring in chinese subs into this thread. Any off-topic posts will be deleted[/mod]
     
  15. Dark Sorrow

    Dark Sorrow Respected Member Senior Member

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    IN doctrine is based on USN doctrine where wars are won by surface ships and submarines are just used to hunt SSBN(espically in enemy waters) and engage any under water threat to CVGs. On the other hand PLAN doctrine is based on soviet doctrine which infact is heavly influenced by WW1 and WW2 german doctrine whereby submarines are ultimate force to destroy enemy fleet and not the surface ships.
    Now just find the ratio for amount of surface ship fleet to submarine fleet in USN and also find the ratio for amount of surface ship fleet to submarine fleet in Soviet fleet and compare them. Now find the ratio for amount of surface ship fleet to submarine fleet in IN and also find the ratio for amount of surface ship fleet to submarine fleet in PLAN fleet and compare them.
    If you compare all the ratio and take in account the financial condition you would find out that the submarine to surface ship ratio is normal in case of india.
     
  16. neo29

    neo29 Senior Member Senior Member

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    There was news some months back of russia offering india the amur class submarines, a highly improved version of kilo class. these submarines were cheaper than scorpene and type 212 .

    the features amur class include a new anti-sonar coating for its hull, an extended cruising range, and advanced anti-ship and anti-submarine weaponry, the Klub-S integrated cruise missile systems. even our brahmos missiles can be put on it. 10 missiles can be fired within 2 minutes. this surely is a underwater beast

    we should go for this in bulk order of 10 or more . better let the russians make it to avoid delays.

    There are speculative rumours of india already has ordered 6 to 8 amur's but there is nothing to prove it.

    but for sure IN will be sending or already sent RFI to French DCNS, Spanish Navantia, Russian Rubin and German HDW
     
  17. notinlove

    notinlove Regular Member

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    All i can do is be me, whoever that is.
    even though i am a firm believer that it was a blunder to go for the scorpene instead of the 214(it is OT so i wont go into details) i also think that now it would be prudent not to go for the 214 due to Pak also aquiring it and anyways IN has already rejected it once.as for the dolphin class .. it is an old design based on the 209 or 212 so no chances there.
    Amur class is considered to be the downgraded export version of the Lada class and as we all know when it comes to india and russia we always get the best stuff. so i think it would rather be the lada and not the amur.
    As for the S-1000, i have no clue what the difference is between it and the Amur,

    one sub that seems like a good option is the S-80 from Spain , i have no clue if the IN is looking at that , but due to the participation of Lockmart in this sub, i suppose it would have to be approved by the american congress first.
     
  18. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    US and UK aren't in the SSK market. Their technology in this area is inferior to France and Germany, even Russia.
     
  19. ..Azad

    ..Azad Regular Member

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    Just checked that paper, the only clamour I draw out from that paper is that navy wants a second production line. It also says that as many as 19 encounters reported with Chinese submarines in yr 2009 and if measures not taken in time – Chinese submarines will be in Indian Oceans.

    Now this is interesting, i cant envisage Chinese navy on an 100 patrolling missions in Indian oceans, which means all the 19 detections had taken place in and around Malacca straits – good job Indian Navy.

    Tho Indian Navy is justified in its demand for a second line of submarine construction but i still cant see Chinese navy dominating Indian ocean. There nuclear submarines makes so much noise that Japanese navy chief joked them saying - ‘even my grandmother can hear them without her earplugs’. Chinese submarines nuclear reactors mainly run on HTGR tech, leaves so much heat signatures that these sub’s very rarely ventures out in deep sea - and are hopeless in stealth.

    There diesel sub’s are a threat but cant see them coming into Indian Ocean, without any littoral base. In 2003 one of there developed diesel engine got shutdown midway, killing many Chinese sailors – enouncing the quality of Chinese hardware. No doubt best of there toys are Russian KILO’s,

    Moreover Chinese have very confined capacity to communicate in deep sea – leave alone Indian ocean.


    To learn about Chinese R&D in submarines - google ''Chi Mak"
     
  20. neo29

    neo29 Senior Member Senior Member

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    the amur class is less capable variant of the lada class. but amur is strictly for exports. i dont think lada class is qualified for exports. but ofcourse russia give us anything we want.

    the s-80 of spain is still under construction. s-1000 is built by russia and italy is advanced version of the amur class. s-1000 has been offered to india and a presentation is already given to IN in 2006. am wondering why no action has been taken since 2006.

    IN has options of s1000 , amur class , type 214 and more scorpenes. its highly unlikely that the current 6 scorpene production will be completed by 2012 and the second line submarines production yet to start. its better we lease some submarines to meet shortfall which will happen on 2012. russia will easily lease us.
     
  21. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    India is just better off buying more Scorpenes for the second line. They already have the production technology/training and with a larger order can get components cheaper for all the subs. Scorpene can have AIP added in the second batch with a refit for the first later on. Best choice if you want more sooner and cheaper.
     

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