'Indian, Pak army officers should attend joint classes in US'

[Mustang]

There is nothing condescending in what he said i think. He just wants to show that the US considers both india and pakistan as strategically important and in its eyes both are equal. May be he just wants indian and pakistani military interactions take place so that it builds "some" trust and "goodwill" between the two. And when i say strategically important, one is needed to fight against taliban and another to counter perhaps china.

 

[ajtr]

There is nothing condescending in what he said i think. He just wants to show that the US considers both india and pakistan as strategically important and in its eyes both are equal. May be he just wants indian and pakistani military interactions take place so that it builds "some" trust and "goodwill" between the two. And when i say strategically important, one is needed to fight against taliban and another to counter perhaps china.

May be pakistan but not india.Indian forces are there to fight indian wars not fight for america as mercenaries.

 

[Mustang]

May be pakistan but not india.Indian forces are there to fight indian wars not fight for america as mercenaries.

May not be as "mercenaries", but if it is for comman interests they can fight the war together.

 

[mayfair]

These two armies are likely to face each other sometime in the future..it's a given considering the past..if not a full blown war then a limited conflict at least.
Will the US proposal help either in any case?

Other questions to be asked are

How will this help India counter those insurgency which are being actively supported and guided by the Pakistan military?

How does this help us in the Indian context where the doctrine, ground realities, perceptions, mindset is a world apart from what US has come across?

 

[ajtr]

May not be as "mercenaries", but if it is for comman interests they can fight the war together.

No they will never...Indian govt will never commit its troops for usa wars or will fight under usa flag.Thats the independence of command GOI fiercely protects.

 

[ajtr]

These two armies are likely to face each other sometime in the future..it's a given considering the past..if not a full blown war then a limited conflict at least.
Will the US proposal help either in any case?

Other questions to be asked are

How will this help India counter those insurgency which are being actively supported and guided by the Pakistan military?

How does this help us in the Indian context where the doctrine, ground realities, perceptions, mindset is a world apart from what US has come across?

How india has been countering the insurgencies supported by usa in india.

 

[mayfair]

How india has been countering the insurgencies supported by usa in india.

??? What are you on about?

 

[Ray]

There is nothing condescending in what he said i think. He just wants to show that the US considers both india and pakistan as strategically important and in its eyes both are equal. May be he just wants indian and pakistani military interactions take place so that it builds "some" trust and "goodwill" between the two. And when i say strategically important, one is needed to fight against taliban and another to counter perhaps china.

The US General may not have been condescending, but he did display sincerity without any idea of the perspective and the animus bred by history. Yet, on the other hand, he did promote with total sincerity the cause of his country – get the Taliban problem solved with the US interests in Afghanistan protected and secure.

If India and Pakistan can reach an accord, then the US can get the Pakistanis to cooperate in solving the issue wherein the Pakistanis would leash in their Taliban and exert the pressure on the Aghani Taliban, who are but puppets on an ISI string. To this end, the US has goaded India and Pakistan to have umpteen baatcheets, which have produced no result! Thus, it is in the US interest to calm Pakistan of her apprehensions of India and having India bend backward to accommodate Pakistan's desire in Kashmir and elsewhere.

One wonders if there is any common interest of India and Pakistan to fight the Talibans. Pakistan wants the Taliban to take over Afghanistan i.e. the Haqqani coterie, which is of no interest to India since they are funded and organised by the ISI and is only keen to ensure that Afghanistan becomes a surrogate of Pakistan. That would hardly be in Indian interest. It will merely be of assistance to Pakistan to then go back to the one front threat and funnel the unemployed Taliban to create greater havoc in Kashmir and other parts of India.

The current unrest in Kashmir is the harbinger of things to come, if Pakistan has her way.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

This is nothing about enmity of India and Pakistan here, after all we both lived in the same country once upon a time and even when a person like Gandhi could not beg both sides to live together what would this General do by sitting few soldiers together? Gandhi went on a fast till death to stop the Hindu Muslim riots and that may have stopped the riots but did not change the mind of people to separate.

Don't forget that in the name of 'Love thy neighbour as thyself' millions and millions of people have died, more than in all the recent wars put together. But we now have come to a point where we can realize that violence is not the answer, that it is not the way to solve human problems. So, terror seems to be the only way. I am not talking of terrorists blowing up churches, temples, and all that kind of thing, but the terror that if you try to destroy your neighbour you will possibly destroy yourself. That realization has to come down to the level of the common man.

 

[ajtr]

This is nothing about enmity of India and Pakistan here, after all we both lived in the same country once upon a time and even when a person like Gandhi could not beg both sides to live together what would this General do by sitting few soldiers together? Gandhi went on a fast till death to stop the Hindu Muslim riots and that may have stopped the riots but did not change the mind of people to separate.

Don't forget that in the name of 'Love thy neighbour as thyself' millions and millions of people have died, more than in all the recent wars put together. But we now have come to a point where we can realize that violence is not the answer, that it is not the way to solve human problems. So, terror seems to be the only way. I am not talking of terrorists blowing up churches, temples, and all that kind of thing, but the terror that if you try to destroy your neighbour you will possibly destroy yourself. That realization has to come down to the level of the common man.

Destroy thyself to save thy neighbour And that will be best thing to follow if thy believe genuinely in 'Love thy neighbour as thyself'

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Destroy thyself to save thy neighbour And that will be best thing to follow if thy believe genuinely in 'Love thy neighbour as thyself'

I dont understand your comment!! Who would destroy themselves?

 

[Agantrope]

May not be as "mercenaries", but if it is for comman interests they can fight the war together.

Can you explain the term common interest?

 

[Tshering22]

The problem with Indians is that even when a sincere offer is made - the Indian ego gets in the way. There is nothing condescending about the general's offer. The Americans send their officers to many different parts of the world and train and study with soldiers in many different types of terrain including in India.

If a country like the US which has the most powerful military in the world can say that we are willing to learn from even the smallest countries; then why wouldn't Indians want to send their young cadets, and officers to places like West Point, US naval academy, etc if given the chance.

There is no army in the world that has as much recent combat experience and COIN in the last 40 years as the US army with maybe the Israelis being close. The Chinese have not fought a war in more than 50 years. If Indian officers and cadets can see how things are done in the US military; then I am sure that could use that knowhow to tweak their own tactics.

If the same offer were made to the Chinese they would literally jump at it.

Dear Sir,

With all due respect I would like to tell you the following points:

1) You go on a war against a country who merely took town your two buildings.

2) For the sake of these two buildings, you obliterated two countries which were already walking on international crutches. (Afghanistan and Iraq)

3) A country that doesn't listen to you completely or keep its toe in line is declared as a rogue nation and filled with sanctions, despite it not have said anything about harming or attacking you.(Venezuela)

4) You invade a country on pretense of so-called human rights (That somehow seems only reserved for specific communities) having nothing to do with USA in any aspect. The bomb raids continue against these countries for days, until its own secessionist forces declare itself independent and you aid them just because they aren't your allies or even your enemies (Serbia when you recognize Kosovo).



And you expect us to train with, cooperate alongside, befriend with a country that has cost us more than 2-300,000 lives since the last 3 decades in terrorism, communal massacre, extermination of natives and cost us billions of rupees?

Nice logic you got.

 

[White Clouds]

"As they do, they get to know each other there and even do some of the things we've done elsewhere in the world where we bring different sides during frozen conflicts together," he argued. "For example, at the Army School at Leavenworth, they're up at Carlisle Barracks, and let them study our Civil War together. And after a few days, they start warming up. I think there are ways for us to build trust between officer corps that will help stabilize these issues, but it's fundamentally a political problem, not a military one of course," Mattis said in response to a question from Senator Scott Brown.

I find no problem in this. If it's benefiting all three of us what's the problem in that? Remember knowledge is forever learning process. We can always learn new things, exchange ideas etc from such join plans.

 

[Singh]

Indian and Pakistan soldiers and officers work together as part of UN Peacekeeping forces.

 

[Tshering22]

Indian and Pakistan soldiers and officers work together as part of UN Peacekeeping forces.

Singh ji, working under UN tag would mean even Iran and USA will have to work together. American class rooms are totally different. They fancy trying to make us forget the atrocities and difficulties we've faced at the hands of Pakistanis for no reason. Despite its full proof shown post-Kargil conflict, still US officers continue to approve military aid for a country that itself is double-crossing them by playing double agent with Taliban and LET. US is new to South Asia despite its seeming presence in the sub-continent for the last 40+ years. It has to understand that the rules employed in Vietnam, Korea, Serbia etc won't work here and it has to choose a partner from the two countries: us or Pakistan.

 

[Mustang]

No they will never...Indian govt will never commit its troops for usa wars or will fight under usa flag.Thats the independence of command GOI fiercely protects.

We may not fight wars of some other country or under the flag of some other country. Tommorow if india goes to war against pakistan and US also attacks pakistan (very hypothetical situation), Indians will see as if both india and US are fighting for a comman cause. It doesnt mean that india is fighting under the flag of some other country.

 

[Mustang]

Can you explain the term common interest?

Many times interests one country overlap with the interests of another. Such interests could also be a war where stakes of 2 or more countries are at stake. That war could be "terrorism" or some dictatorial / communist (undemocratic) regime getting over ambitious.

 

[samarsingh]

The US also provided similar "classes" to Iraqi soldiers. more here
We all know what happened later. I don't think it is just an "honest" offer by a General. There would have been some deep thinking on the issue from either Zbigniew Kazimierz Brzezinski or Henry Alfred Kissinger's schools of thought.

 

[Currywurst]

Mattster,

The problem with Americans is that they believe that root of all conflict resolutions runs through them.. This probably is a mindset that came to existence after the second World War.. and Quite rightly so as America as a Nation did step forward and save Europe and bring about change in Germany.. This is something Europe is always in debt for..

However to the topic above.. The naivety or deviousness of thinking from an American perspective is clearly seen.. You mention there is nothing condescending about the General's offer.. This would have been true if the General in Question was suggesting that Indian officers should attend military classes in the United States and study American civil war together with American Officers..and if the Indians rejected this offer your statement " the Indian ego gets in the way " would hold ground..

Instead.. The offer is to have joint military training and education between military adversaries India and Pakistan that have fought more wars between each other than any two nations in the world.. Would the Americans have been ready to conduct such trainings with the erstwhile USSR during the height of the Cold War ???...I don't see Americans conducting training or studying military strategy along with their current adversaries Iran, North Korea, Venezuela.. How do you expect the Indians to sit with the Pakistanis.. The Situation between India and Pakistan is similar to a Cold War at a smaller scale.. The Americans would do well to Understand the local sensitivities of certain regions It will bode well for them in the next conflict .. Unless its Shock & Awe again..

I don't think anyone is saying that Indians are not willing to learn.. They sure have a decade or more to learn compared to the Americans.. I would assume any Indian officer would consider passing out of West-point or Naval Academy one of his career highlights.The Indians certainly would send their cadets.. Just not to sit along with their arch rival Pakistan and do combined study in Military strategy..

The COIN experience of the US ARMY is formidable as seen from there current engagements in Iraq and Afghanistan.. Though the results can be debated as is the case with COIN operations worldwide.. There is certainly a lot that the Indian Army and perhaps any Army can learn from the American experience.Indians certainly can learn to tweak some ROEs in COIN from the Americans..

I'd like to see the Americans make the offer to the Chinese.. I really would!!!