'Indian, Pak army officers should attend joint classes in US'

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by Neil, Jul 29, 2010.

  1. Neil

    Neil Senior Member Senior Member

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    Washington: A top US General today said that senior military officers from India and Pakistan should jointly attend military classes in the United States and study American civil war together. Such a move, General James Mattis said, would create the much needed trust between the military leaders of the two countries, which is required in addition to the diplomatic efforts between the leaders of India and Pakistan.

    "As we all know, they (India and Pakistan) have fought several wars over a number of issues. There's the Kashmir issue. There's any number of terrorist attacks," General Mattis said in his confirmation hearing before the powerful Senate Armed Services Committee. "But I think the most important thing we can do in
    support of the diplomatic efforts which will fundamentally be how we change something like this, is to help bring the officer corps of both militaries together and create trust between them, allow them to perhaps attend our school together," Mattis said.

    US President Barack Obama has nominated General Mattis as his Commander for the US Central Command, which handles Afghanistan and Pakistan. India comes under the jurisdiction of the Pacific Command.


    "As they do, they get to know each other there and even do some of the things we've done elsewhere in the world where we bring different sides during frozen conflicts together," he argued. "For example, at the Army School at Leavenworth, they're up at Carlisle Barracks, and let them study our Civil War together. And after a few days, they start warming up. I think there are ways for us to build trust between officer corps that will help stabilize these issues, but it's fundamentally a political problem, not a military one of course," Mattis said in response to a question from Senator Scott Brown.

    Earlier in written response to senators' questions, Mattis said that Pakistan has concerns about any military cooperation between the US and India, which affects both their relationship with Islamabad and, indirectly, the US efforts in Afghanistan.

    "However, we make clear to Pakistan that our military cooperation and engagement is not a threat to Pakistan and that this is not a zero-sum game. We have important
    relationships and strategic partnerships with both countries that are not at the expense of either," Mattis said.

    The US General said close coordination between Central Command (CENTCOM) and Pacific Command (PACOM) is a recognized condition for the regions' challenges to be addressed. "Though some advantages could be realized with India and Pakistan in one AOR, PACOM and CENTCOM, with adequate coordination mechanisms to address US interests in the region, can work symbiotically on long-term security measures," Mattis said.


    http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/i...(NDTV+News+-+World)&utm_content=Google+Reader
     
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  3. Ritwik

    Ritwik Regular Member

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    How bloody condescending.

    Perhaps the Indian government should take note of the air of extreme cockiness that surrounds recent statements by American commanders with regard to India.
     
  4. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    Here's an advice to that smart pants general: How about you shut your mouth, pull up your pants and do something about your stupid wars in Afghanistan and Iraq that your hi-tech military is finding a pain to sort out before meddling in South Asia?
     
  5. Godless-Kafir

    Godless-Kafir DFI Buddha Senior Member

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    What is wrong or cocky about it apart from the fact that it wont solve any thing? People dont understand that their ideology does not permit them to live with us as friends, so what will a silly military class do, does this military class illustrate how the peaceful native tribes where killed and ethnically cleansed? May be the Indian Removal Act would means something to our Indian soldiers? :)
     
  6. Terminator

    Terminator Regular Member

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    why don't we invite them together and give them special classes them why they got whacked in vietnam and Afghan + Iraq !! of course this lectures would be given b our babus!!lolzz



    Now for their cockiness tell them to mind their own business !! none of our politicians(of none of the parties) have spine to say shut the f@#$ up to these guys!!
     
  7. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    its like US learning classes with Ira or NK or China or Cuba or Venezuela............
     
  8. gogbot

    gogbot Regular Member

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    Am , i missing something . Why is everyone up in arms against the US.

    While i doubt either side would accept the invitation.

    Why you guy's so angry the US even made the offer ?
     
  9. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    USSOCOM (United States Special Operations Command) personnel are already getting trained in COIN at Counter Insurgency Jungle Warfare School (CIJWS) in Vairengte, Mizoram and at High Altitude Warfare School (HAWS) in Sonamarg, Kashmir.Only Army which have better percentage of COIN success rate is indian army.Others are just catalogue army of photo-ops.
     
  10. Agantrope

    Agantrope Senior Member Senior Member

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    Obama is opening his big mouth and thinks his the messenger of the peace over the world. This is what not the last thing IA wanted.
     
  11. mattster

    mattster Respected Member Senior Member

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    The problem with Indians is that even when a sincere offer is made - the Indian ego gets in the way. There is nothing condescending about the general's offer. The Americans send their officers to many different parts of the world and train and study with soldiers in many different types of terrain including in India.

    If a country like the US which has the most powerful military in the world can say that we are willing to learn from even the smallest countries; then why wouldn't Indians want to send their young cadets, and officers to places like West Point, US naval academy, etc if given the chance.

    There is no army in the world that has as much recent combat experience and COIN in the last 40 years as the US army with maybe the Israelis being close. The Chinese have not fought a war in more than 50 years. If Indian officers and cadets can see how things are done in the US military; then I am sure that could use that knowhow to tweak their own tactics.

    If the same offer were made to the Chinese they would literally jump at it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2010
  12. Agantrope

    Agantrope Senior Member Senior Member

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    Come on man grow up, would you like to sit up with the Japanese and Taiwanese to learn in the military school, What prevents china from doing that is same reason that forbids india
     
  13. mattster

    mattster Respected Member Senior Member

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    You have no idea what you are yapping about. US military academies and military train host students from many foreign countries that are allies. The places are only offered in very limited number. China would never even get such an invite, unless they in turn let US soldiers into their training centers. Almost all US Middle-eastern allies have their pilots train undergo training with the USAF. Even countries like Singapore, Taiwan, Malaysia, etc send their officers for frequent training in the US.
     
  14. Agantrope

    Agantrope Senior Member Senior Member

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    Still you dont answer my question. would you like to sit up with the Japanese and Taiwanese to learn in the military school in US in case of China admitting US Soldiers in Chinese Military school? Answer this and we can have all the BS later
     
  15. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    americans need to cut their crap and keep all this crap to themselves, and who else other than ndtv would have been carrying this load crap. losers!
     
  16. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    Yeah Yeah whole world has seen US forces COIN experiences in various countries and still seeing it....end result same.USA forces runs with there tail between their legs.U name it .. Vietnam, Somalia Korea....And are now planning another honorable withdrawal fro afghanistan.Quite a good experience i must say..


    BTW we can offer you to tain with taliban officers and osama bin laden's Al-qaida cadres so that you can learn 1 or two tricks of guerrilla warfare.Hope it doesn't hurt your superpower ego.=heheh
     
  17. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    What american Academies teach???......An honorable withdrawal and surrender..Pakistanis have been training with you since 1950 ....what your military academies has taught them to surrender en-mass to indians and rag-tag taliban.send your officers here to india we will teach you the tricks of successful COIN.BTW ur officers were already traing in our jungle and high mountain warfare.
     
  18. anoop_mig25

    anoop_mig25 Senior Member Senior Member

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    how about starting with iran-america, cuba-america, Venezuela-america and yes northkorea-america
     
  19. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    there are two points of disputes here:

    one is condescending that you are hitting on, and some people have raised. personally i dont see a reason why we should not look to learn something if it is worth the expense, and on this if the value addition is worth its salt i feel the GoI will have no probs in pursuing it as such we have had innumerable joint exercises then why not this.

    the second and the more important point is the talk of joint indo-pak classes in america, and this is the biggest hindrance, and this directly means interference by the americans on the bilateral relations between india and pak and this is something on which the US government needs to completely back off, certainly not make public announcements on this, they can keep it quite and simple as has happened so far through back door channels of diplomacy, if people from the US make these public announcements the public at large will have none of it especially with an army which has blood on its hand of hundreds of thousands of indians, and if at all it has to happen then this gesture be handed out by the two concerned parties, ie india and pakistan and not by the US. US suggesting something of this nature is seen as a clear sign of interference something none appreciate here other than a few like the ndtv's.
     
  20. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    exactly the point. will the americans attend any such lectures with the present state of relations with these countries and that too on foreign soil. imagine iran-america in china, or dprk-US in china with lectures being handed out by the chinese and cuba-america, Venezuela-america in russia and the lectures being handed out by the russians. obama would be past tense at the very onset of any such move.
     
  21. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Even if the US General was doing Mary Poppins, the US Civil War is not quite the example for Indians or Pakistanis to swot over to reconcile the historical difference that goes way into time even before the Partition.

    There is a yawning chasm in this historical divide, which notwithstanding the cosmetic ‘hail fellow well met’ interludes, continues to haunt and divide and no amount of reading the US Civil War will merge the differences.

    If Manmohan who has lived and studied in what is now Pakistan and amongst the Muslims who are now Pakistanis has not been able to reconcile his difference in perspective even though he continually extends the other cheek to the Pakistanis, then one wonders how a small sojourn all expense paid by the US military will change the mindset of Indian and Pakistani officers. Wishful thinking actually!

    Ayub Khan mooted the Confederation idea and there were few takers. Therefore, all one can do is thank the US General for his good thoughts. To imagine that it is feasible when the Pak govt, inspite of the huge human catastrophe of the floods inundating one fifth of Pakistan, refuses Indian aid! Kite flying to say the least!

    It is not egos that are ruffled when Mary Poppinses hit the scene with Biblical type of goodness and compassion. It is just that one gets astounded at the total ignorance and discard history and societal psychology to propounded solutions to niggling issues.

    It must also be remembered that while the Pakistani officers call the shots in governance of Pakistan, Indian officers have no say at all and no matter how much they (the Indian officers) are indoctrinated to embrace the US desire, they will still have to hang loose.

    It maybe interesting to note that Indian Army not only sends officers to other countries including US, UK, France, Malaysia, Australia, Germany etc for professional enhancement i.e. courses, they also send them to various international conferences and seminars too. Therefore, it maybe known that they are not quite as isolated to the world armies as one would like to assume.

    It is not the US or the Israeli army which has the most experience in warfare or COIN. To set the record straight, it is the Indian Army that has the maximum experience in warfare and COIN.

    One really does not have to learn from the Americans to tweak their tactics for the simple reason is that the US has a different ‘landscape’ to manage i.e. their national goals, strategic requirement is totally different from that of the Indians. Therefore, one cannot template one country’s tactics on another. Even the ethos or approach is different. Americans are prone to fire first and ask questions later since they believe that it is more important to save their own soldiers first and then bother about the enemy or the insurgents (who may be innocent and not insurgents caught in the crossfire), while the Indian Army fires only after totally sure that the other person is hostile. Somalia is a case in point where the Indian Brigade was commended not only by the UN but also by the warlords, while the US went for the jugular as could be observed by the film Blackhawk Down or the way the civilian security contractors gunned down innocent Iraqis causing the Iraqis to blacklist the firm, even though the US administration fought hard against such a ban.
     

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