Indian nuclear submarines

[Yusuf]

Great news this. Congratulations to DRDO and the nation.

 

[Pintu]

Congratulation to our scientific Community and specially DRDO, it would be a tremendous achievement. Waiting for the launch on proposed day.

Regards

 

[p2prada]

Finally, the great day has almost arrived. Kudos to our scientists.

 

[p2prada]

Pretty neat sub.

 

[p2prada]

To date we are building 3 ATVs. The first one and the third one will be constructed in Vishakapatnam and by 2011, will be based there. A new Naval Base is being constructed near Vizag and the first phase is to be ready by 2011. This base will open out to sea immediately unlike Vizag's existing harbour with a narrow channel.

The second ATV is being built by L&T in Hazira, Gujarat. Now, the second and third subs will be more advanced than the first one. But, we may stop with 3 for now until a new reactor is built. This is because the present reactor generating 80MW is underpowered. Scientists estimate, the reactor will have to work at full capacity for high speed, which is not always possible.

Also, every decade, the hull must be cut open to replace the nuclear fuel. Since, the 80MW reactor is not enough, more fuel will be spent every decade increasing the cost of maintenance of the sub. But, these challenges are not as significant as having our first ATV operationally deployed at sea.

 

[Payeng]

But, we may stop with 3 for now until a new reactor is built. This is because the present reactor generating 80MW is underpowered. Scientists estimate, the reactor will have to work at full capacity for high speed, which is not always possible.

Also, every decade, the hull must be cut open to replace the nuclear fuel. Since, the 80MW reactor is not enough, more fuel will be spent every decade increasing the cost of maintenance of the sub. But, these challenges are not as significant as having our first ATV operationally deployed at sea.

There are various reports of the peak power output of the nuclear reactor from 80 to 160 to 190 mw.

If we consider the current reports of 80 mw with 40% enriched uranium fuel is true it might also be an experimental reactor since extracting highly enriched uranium for an experimental reactor may not liable as India is in the process of obtaining a minimum credible deterrence against PRC. Enrichment ensures long reactor lifetimes so why India would opt for a low enriched nuclear fuel doctrine if it has a capacity of extracting a highly enriched uranium fuel?

USN subs are known to uses highly enriched uranium (>90%) in its reactors, Russian submarines are known to use medium and low level enriched uranium but recent reactor designs incorporate highly enriched uranium in the core, then why not India?

At least one report indicates that India have the capacity of extracting highly enriched uranium fuel (>90%). The answer may be that because India cannot extract high amount of enriched fuel presently it is using low enriched uranium for its experimental vessel. Uranium is rare for India and India is also using it for nuclear weapons, experiments with naval nuclear reactor is not new, among the known fact here are a few dates from the past;

The PWR failed tests at Kalpakkam in November and December 1995. The failures were believed to be caused by "several integration and fabrication problems" that have yet to be solved. (

In June of 1996 it was reported that the program suffered further setbacks following additional failed tests of the reactor. Problems in fabricating the containment vessel have also occurred. (

Richard Sharpe, the editor of Jane's Fighting Ships stated to Indian Age that "the Russian submarine-design bureau Rubin is cooperating with the DRDO in developing the sub's 190 MW PWR, and that the Indian navy already tested a nuclear-propulsion system ashore, ???:connie_22:

In July of 1996 it was reported by Delhi All India Radio that "India has successfully developed a nuclear-reactor for the submarine code named ATV. ???:connie_22:

If all these experiments failed a lot of the rare material has been already used in those experiments.

Plus we had the Pohkran II.

Finally it was declared that The 100 MW nuclear reactor went critical in October 2004 at Kalpakkam and is now fully operational. :113:

Moreover the amount of uranium consumed per year by a reactor depends both on its operation and power output, a high powered nuclear reactor would require more uranium at higher enrichment level (technology being constant).

According to one estimate the nuclear core of the reactor for ATV is 90 kg U-235 at 40% enrichment level should last for 10 years. That’s quiet enough to power an experimental naval reactor @ 6000 tons of displacement considering that it won’t be used for high endurance operations as like those of the USN subs (mostly only in IOC region). How ever with the development of higher displacement subs. and a doctrine of higher operational readiness and deployment, we can expect subs. with more powerful nuclear core and a longer fuel life cycle (considering we have the technology which I think we have) and according to the availability of uranium and better enrichment facilities.

 

[Yusuf]

Don't know why suddenly talks about the power of the reactor. It is a 190MW reactor from the very outset. If it did not generate that kind of power it would have been called a failure and the ATV project would have been seriously delayed. The Navy would not have accepted an grossly underpowered reactor.

 

[Yusuf]

Will be armed with sagarika and Agni SLBM. So it will be classified as an SSBN. Western critics say that it's too small to be called one.
But if it is armed with those missiles, then take your pick.

 

[John]

well it can fire the K-15 missile which is the sea based variant of the Shaurya missile, range 700 km with full payload but can hit targets upto 2200km away on much lighter payload of around 150 kg. They are not ballistic missiles in that sense because they fly at much lower altitudes and can reach speeds of upto mach 7, they are stealthy, fast and fly at around 15,000 to 18,000 ft. Agni-3SL will give us ability to ht targets upto 11,600 km away on light payload of 700 kg as well. indeed a baby SSBM.

 

[sayareakd]

Can someone clear this up for me? Are the first 3 ATVs going to be SSBNs or SSGNs? I read that they are going to have nuklear tipped cruise missiles which is not an SSBN as the B stands for ballistic, of which a cruise missile is not.

Those missile tubes on ATV will have flexible option it can house either one Agni SL missile or three K-15 in same tube.

That means ATV can house mix of Agni and K-15, therefore it is mix bread of SSBN and SSGN, basically it is nuclear delivery system, made as per our requirement.

we have not followed other nations on making nuclear sub. we have device our own design.

BTW ATV-II & III will be bigger then ATV-I as they will house more missile.

may i just further add that

ATV-I will be used for primary test purpose (officially it is tech demonestrator), but this nuke sub will be used for nuclear delivery if the time so demand, as it will be station near it home harbour all the time, if time comes it will deliver our gift to China if need be arise.

 

[Yusuf]

Why will a nuke sub remain near it harbor at all points?
And if the need arises, how will it sail out if there is a massive blocade?
The job of a nuke sub is to keep wandering and be undetected so that if the time comes, it can deliver it's payload.

 

[John]

well i think its the ideal sub for our future carrier groups, its small, stealthy and deadly, could be a gr8 hunter killer. Dont know about ATV-2/3, Saya could you please shed some light on our bigger boomers. I think our ATV must be able to fire the next gen Brahmos-2 hypersonic cruise missile, keeping in mind our neighbors, ATV is ideal for such a deadly missile, the scram jet cruise missile will have a sea skimming speed of around mach 5 and a top speed of mach 7, ATV is gr8 for this.

 

[sayareakd]

well what you are saying is true, but it is equally true that ATV-I is for test purpose therefore it cannot have live nuke warheads with her all the time, during tests (since some thing might go worng on test).

Because it will be used for test purpose it will be doing the test near it home harbour.

more so as per the Indian nuclear protocall, all the weapons are not stored with warheads, they will be mated as and when different stages come, when these is first sign that things are going wrong and their is chance of war, nuclear core, triggers and mated and them it will be put on delivery vehicle.

Same way if things go wrong with other ATVs are not in oprations same procedure shall be followed.

It is not that our policy at present is nuclear heir trigger attack.

 

[sayareakd]

Saya could you please shed some light on our bigger boomers. I think our ATV must be able to fire the next gen Brahmos-2 hypersonic cruise missile, keeping in mind our neighbors, ATV is ideal for such a deadly missile, the scram jet cruise missile will have a sea skimming speed of around mach 5 and a top speed of mach 7, ATV is gr8 for this.

Big one ATV-II which is build by L&T at Gujrat (you can check wiki mapia) it will give clues on its location. (or PM me) it will house more missile with probably same type of design.

Brahmos missile will be great addition to our ATVs, but it has sever limitation specially with MTCR signatory Russia, wont like to see it as nuclear delivery platform.

We have to develop our own missile for the same to be fitted on ATV, just like K-15.

But first we have to test Agni SL III or II version.

 

[p2prada]

@Payeng
The Americans and Russians are using time tested reactors mate. We have issues in miniaturizing the reactor. This would mean smaller reactor core, smaller cooling pipes, smaller everything, but large power. New reactors will obviously be developed, and will take time. We managed to finish the reactor and place it in the ATV only in 2004, and this is done after the reactor goes critical. So, this reactor was only ready in 2000 or something. Our future reactors will be better.

@Yusuf
According to latest media reports, the reactor in our first ATV will be 80MW.

 

[p2prada]

Can someone clear this up for me? Are the first 3 ATVs going to be SSBNs or SSGNs? I read that they are going to have nuklear tipped cruise missiles which is not an SSBN as the B stands for ballistic, of which a cruise missile is not.

Analysts call the ATV a baby boomer. Nevertheless, it will carry the small range K-15 or the longer range Agni 3.

Information about the K-15 is classified, but DRDO released its land based cousin Shourya.

Some pictures,

The Shourya being a version of K-15 is being denied officially. But, analysts are not convinced.

You can expect the same to be the K-15 without the underwater booster. The K-15 will fly to an altitude of 5km with the underwater boosters and then the second stage kicks in.

Both, K-15 and Agni 3 are ballistic missiles.

 

[Yusuf]

Cannot buy this building a nuke sub for testing thing. Obviously not much info is available, but it's going to be a full fleged sub armed with missiles. Regarding warheads that's not mated with missiles, well policies change.

John, no SSBN will be part of carrier groups. The hunter killers are the ones that are part of battle groups.

Prada,
if the requirement for the ATV was 190MW, how will it run with power that is less than half?

 

[K Factor]

I am not sure how an SSBN will fit into India's doctrine!

India keeps its nuke warheads in component form,and that too, is not delivery ready (Warheads and delivery vehicles are not kept in mated ready to launch configuration).

The purpose of SSBN is to have a credible deterrence of a 2nd strike.

If missiles carried in the SSBN are not nuke-ready to launch configuration, what is the purpose of having it?

 

[Yusuf]

For the subs, the policy might change. Two maintain a second strike capability, the dubs have to be somewhere on the seas armed to the teeth so that the enemy thinks twice before taking any foolish decision.

 

[1.44]

It will take another three years for the subs to get second strike capability,testing of the missiles will take place during this time,there's no sense in having a SSBN with non-ready nukes.Plenty of time for the decisions to be made.