Indian nuclear submarines

[lcafanboy]

News alert from: DFI Chat......

From very senior member, from underwater branch, "Manu's Article is not factual".

you mean to say that we have spent all this money on nuke submarine and we forget to install radiation sensors inside the submarine, area where you mention. Then it took one year for the same.

There's a strong chatter we have 3 SSBNs in total and this whole thing is a cover up story. The launch timing of a OUT OF A BLUE INS Arighat Matches that with story of INS Arihant so called MISHAP.

INS Aridhaman Indeed exist and some chatter of it being quite a big one with around 150mts in length.

Also there's a chatter of INS Arihant being deployed in Mediterranean and it visiting Israel.

Here's an eye-opening Analysis done by @arpit from another forum:

Officially, India is constructing 2 SSBNs. And officially both submarine are of same design, same class, and same number of silos. That means 111 meter boomer. But when I was doing some research regarding this, I found an enormous anomaly in this argument.

https://www.**************.org/forums/attachments/new-png.1199/

Sat Image of Vizag ( Dec 2017)

But when I calculated the length of visible part(using google earth) of submarine, I found a very interesting thing.

https://www.**************.org/forums/attachments/untitled1-png.1200/

The submarine found to be length of 140 meters. If we add approx 5 meters for non visible part (upto propellers), the total length of submarine is found to be 145 meters.

Surprised to this I contacted my own source, and confronted him with this sat image. It took me 3 hours of sweet talks to get the truth, he said "I can only tell INS Aridhman is indeed 111 meters and not an inch more than that."

If we accept this theory, then what about this submarine which is might be undergoing trials in Vizag. Then question come into mind that this is the 3rd boomer? We all need to ask this question.

 

[lcafanboy]

I too maintained that we have 3 SSBNs in water with 4th on the verge of completion:

My Take is we have:

1) S-2 INS ARIHANT

2) S-3 INS ARIGHAT

both with 4 silos and identical and Pakistan specific.

3) S-4 INS ARIDHAMAN with 8 silos

and in pipline

4) S-4* INS A.............. with 12 silos

Both China specific

Thereafter S-5 Avinash class with 16 silos will kick in and both INS Arihant & INS Arighat will be converted to SSGN.

Also INS Arihant was certainly in docks 10 months but for refit with powerful 150 MW reactor which will also be used for SSNs which are based on INS Arhiant class........

So all is well with our nuke subs...........

 

[sayareakd]

all i could think of is that they will be needing more space to put in all these subs.

my take, we have total 5 nuclear sub in water.

 

[sayareakd]

Also INS Arihant was certainly in docks 10 months but for refit with powerful 150 MW reactor which will also be used for SSNs which are based on INS Arhiant class........

10 months in dock for taking out water............. they could have come up with another story.........

put a pipe and drain it with electric pump................ it will take few hours.........

 

[sayareakd]

if S2 Arihant is out of action for last 10 months, then what Sub they tested it from, Both S3 or S4 not ready for missile tests???

 

[no smoking]

Also INS Arihant was certainly in docks 10 months but for refit with powerful 150 MW reactor which will also be used for SSNs which are based on INS Arhiant class........
So all is well with our nuke subs...........

You can never stop making us laugh with your imagination.

Cutting open the hull of a billion dollars worth nuclear submarine, taking out the existing reactor, re-building all the power cable / pipe line / gear and putting back a new reactor in 10 months? And you have pray that the size of reactor is the same as the older one.

Firstly, the money to do this will be more than enough to build a new submarine;
Secondly, considering the complexity of the whole job, no one can finish it in 10 months.

 

[NeXoft007]

I too maintained that we have 3 SSBNs in water with 4th on the verge of completion:

My Take is we have:

1) S-2 INS ARIHANT

2) S-3 INS ARIGHAT

both with 4 silos and identical and Pakistan specific.

3) S-4 INS ARIDHAMAN with 8 silos

and in pipline

4) S-4* INS A.............. with 12 silos

Both China specific

Thereafter S-5 Avinash class with 16 silos will kick in and both INS Arihant & INS Arighat will be converted to SSGN.

Also INS Arihant was certainly in docks 10 months but for refit with powerful 150 MW reactor which will also be used for SSNs which are based on INS Arhiant class........

So all is well with our nuke subs...........

I said similar story last year, only difference is my theory being
S2 = Arihant (4 Silos)

S3 = Aridhaman (8 Silos)

S3* = Arighat (8 Silos) (made simultaneously with S3 - link provided below)

S4 = ? (8 Silos)

S4* =? (8 Silos but with new tech)

https://defenceupdate.in/construction-in-full-swing-on-indias-2nd-and-3rd-nuclear-submarine/

 

[NeXoft007]

There's a strong chatter we have 3 SSBNs in total and this whole thing is a cover up story. The launch timing of a OUT OF A BLUE INS Arighat Matches that with story of INS Arihant so called MISHAP.

INS Aridhaman Indeed exist and some chatter of it being quite a big one with around 150mts in length.

Also there's a chatter of INS Arihant being deployed in Mediterranean and it visiting Israel.

Here's an eye-opening Analysis done by @arpit from another forum:

Officially, India is constructing 2 SSBNs. And officially both submarine are of same design, same class, and same number of silos. That means 111 meter boomer. But when I was doing some research regarding this, I found an enormous anomaly in this argument.

https://www.**************.org/forums/attachments/new-png.1199/

Sat Image of Vizag ( Dec 2017)

But when I calculated the length of visible part(using google earth) of submarine, I found a very interesting thing.

https://www.**************.org/forums/attachments/untitled1-png.1200/

The submarine found to be length of 140 meters. If we add approx 5 meters for non visible part (upto propellers), the total length of submarine is found to be 145 meters.

Surprised to this I contacted my own source, and confronted him with this sat image. It took me 3 hours of sweet talks to get the truth, he said "I can only tell INS Aridhman is indeed 111 meters and not an inch more than that."

If we accept this theory, then what about this submarine which is might be undergoing trials in Vizag. Then question come into mind that this is the 3rd boomer? We all need to ask this question.

Btw, can you clarify on what basis you calculated that 140m scale in the map? Coz AFAIK, that square sized pontoon bridge on the opposite side of the submarine shelter is movable

 

[Babloo Singh]

10 Months should be sufficient time to convert a SSBN to SSN..
Vertical tubes needs to be changed/modified to fire Bhramos & Nirbhay, some additional quietening measures & adjusting the center of gravity... with reduced weight there will be scope for increased speed which may require tweaking some mechanical setup.
So was it conversion to SSN or we were adding additional vertical tubes to make it carry 8 missiles...
If we look at weight reduction achieved for Agni 3 & 4, it's quiet likely that we would have reduced weight of K-15 & K-4, significantly so it makes sense to add additional tubes and make it 8 tube unit like it's brothers Aridhaman & Arighat.
So which one is it ?

 

[Kshithij]

10 Months should be sufficient time to convert a SSBN to SSN..
Vertical tubes needs to be changed/modified to fire Bhramos & Nirbhay, some additional quietening measures & adjusting the center of gravity... with reduced weight there will be scope for increased speed which may require tweaking some mechanical setup.
So was it conversion to SSN or we were adding additional vertical tubes to make it carry 8 missiles...
If we look at weight reduction achieved for Agni 3 & 4, it's quiet likely that we would have reduced weight of K-15 & K-4, significantly so it makes sense to add additional tubes and make it 8 tube unit like it's brothers Aridhaman & Arighat.
So which one is it ?

The refit to that extent is like remaking the entire submarine. It is simply better to build another submarine instead of doing this. It takes 1 year to make a new submarine. It is simply better to make the new submarine directly instead of this.

Changing propellers, quietening the noise, changing vertical tubes to launch torpdoes (SSKs launch torpedoes, not missiles) are like changing the entire core of the submarine itself

 

[Babloo Singh]

The refit to that extent is like remaking the entire submarine. It is simply better to build another submarine instead of doing this. It takes 1 year to make a new submarine. It is simply better to make the new submarine directly instead of this.

Changing propellers, quietening the noise, changing vertical tubes to launch torpdoes (SSKs launch torpedoes, not missiles) are like changing the entire core of the submarine itself

Well in that case probability of adding more tubes is high.
One year to make a new Sub ? Well in that case we will be having 9 nuclear subs sailing remember Arihant was launched in 2009.

 

[Kshithij]

Well in that case probability of adding more tubes is high.
One year to make a new Sub ? Well in that case we will be having 9 nuclear subs sailing remember Arihant was launched in 2009.

Arihant was launched in 2009 but not commissioned. Also, 1 submarine per year can be made if there is political will. If there was political will, India would have had better technology than China by now instead of lagging behind by 10 years

 

[lcafanboy]

I said similar story last year, only difference is my theory being
S2 = Arihant (4 Silos)

S3 = Aridhaman (8 Silos)

S3* = Arighat (8 Silos) (made simultaneously with S3 - link provided below)

S4 = ? (8 Silos)

S4* =? (8 Silos but with new tech)

https://defenceupdate.in/construction-in-full-swing-on-indias-2nd-and-3rd-nuclear-submarine/

Here's 2015 article clearly stating fabrication of 2n & 3rd hull in full swing and ins Aridhaman out for fitment. Then where did it go?
https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/defe...-on-indias-2nd-and-3rd-nuclear-submarine/amp/

Construction in full-swing on India’s 2nd and 3rd Nuclear Submarine
Ins arihant

India’s second nuclear powered submarine, INS Aridhaman is being readied for launch as her elder sibbling INS Arihant is being readied for commissioning.

Both submarines are designed to carry Nuclear Missiles. Built under the Advanced Technology Vessel Project, the Aridhaman is being outfitted as the Ship Building Centre in Vizag and is expected to be launched in the third quarter of 2016.

INS Arihant’s harbour and deep sea dives have been successful and the submarine that can carry 750-km range ballistic missiles is ready to be commissioned in early 2016 and showcased to the world during the International Fleet Review (IFR) to be held in Visakhapatnam from February 4. According to the original schedule, INS Arihant which was ceremonially launched on July 26, 2009 was supposed to go for sea trials in 2010 and be inducted by 2011.

“As soon as the Arihant is commissioned the focus will be on the second submarine. The hull fabrication of the third Arihant-class submarine has also been completed,” said a Navy source. If everything goes as per schedule, INS Aridhaman after clearing trials will join the Indian Navy by 2018-end, he said.

The Arihant Class of Submarines are based on the design of Russian Akula class vessels.



India will be having a fleet of following numbers of Nuclear Submarines in near future :
4 SSBN’s of Arihant Class + S5 SSBN’s apart from 6 new SSN’s + INS Chakra and 1 more to be leased from Russia

INS Varsha Naval Base ::

Also the work on INS Varsha is on full swing according to recent satellite images. INS Varsha is a new naval base being developed under Project Varsha for the Indian Navy. This base will be the home of the navy’s new fleet of nuclear submarines and ships. It is designed to support the fleet of 8-12 nuclear-powered ballistic missile and attack submarines to be built for the Indian Navy. It will also have underground pens to hide the submarines from spy satellites and protect them from enemy air attacks.

 

[Hindustani78]

The Minister of State for Road Transport & Highways, Shipping and Chemicals & Fertilizers, Shri Mansukh L. Mandaviya flagging off a newly constructed IWAI tug barge, at GR Jetty 2, in Kolkata on January 11, 2018.

The Minister of State for Road Transport & Highways, Shipping and Chemicals & Fertilizers, Shri Mansukh L. Mandaviya meeting the Senior Officials of KOPT, State Government, Central Government, PSU and other Stakeholders in IWT, in Kolkata on January 11, 2018.

The Minister of State for Road Transport & Highways, Shipping and Chemicals & Fertilizers, Shri Mansukh L. Mandaviya with the Senior Officials of KOPT, State Government, Central Government, PSU and other Stakeholders in IWT, in Kolkata on January 11, 2018.

The Minister of State for Road Transport & Highways, Shipping and Chemicals & Fertilizers, Shri Mansukh L. Mandaviya observing the presentation on activities of Kolkata Port Trust, IWAI and Shipping Corporation of India, in Kolkata on January 11, 2018.

 

[lcafanboy]

Deep diving into the facts about INS Arihant 'accident'
By ET CONTRIBUTORS | Jan 12, 2018, 09.44 AM IST

By YUSUF T UNJHAWALA
On Monday, The Hindu reported that India's only operational nuclear ballistic missile submarine, INS Arihant, was out of action for about 10 months last year due to an accident. The report raises more questions than it answers due to its glaring technical and operational inconsistencies. First, the news item stated that the Arihant's propulsion compartment was damaged after water entered it, as a hatch on the rear side was left open by mistake.

The submarine has no hatches there. The Arihant is based on Russian double hull design with a sealed nuclear reactor section. Except for the latest French nuclear submarines that have a hatch above the reactor for quicker refuelling, no other country with nuclear submarines have such a system.


Although the Arihant's core is not designed to operate for the submarine's lifetime and will need refuelling, it does not have a hatch. To refuel, the hull will have to be cut open and welded back, as is the case for the Russian nuclear attack submarine, the Akula-II class that India has leased and operates as INS Chakra.

There are no external hatches in the compartment that houses the steam turbine, gearbox, generator and shaft that drives the propeller. Under normal circumstances, it is not possible for sea water to enter the submarine, and certainly not via a 'non-existent hatch'. It also not possible for a modern submarine that has various sensors to not have a warning system about an open hatch in any other area of the submarine critical for its survival.

Two, the news report says that the absence of Arihant from operations came to the political leadership's attention during the India-China military standoff at Dokalam when India allegedly wanted to deploy it.


This is unlikely as this would mean an across-the-board failure of intelligence and of the checks and balances in place. It also means the armed forces not keeping the civilian leadership in the loop, which is against the former's operating procedures.

INS Arihant carries sea-based nuclear weapons handled by the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) under the Nuclear Command Authority (NCA). The NCA compromises the Political Council headed by the Prime Minister and the Executive Council headed by the National Security Advisor (NSA), who advises the political council on the use of nuclear weapons.

Intelligence agencies like Intelligence Bureau (IB) and the Research and Analysis Wing (R&AW) report to the NSA. It is improbable that the NSA, arguably the most powerful person in the Indian security establishment, did not know about the status of an important strategic asset for 7-8 months, and learnt about the damage only at the time of a crisis.

Third, as sea-based deterrence requires mated warheads, it is a departure from the past when India kept its warheads and delivery systems separate. There are additional protocols to keep civilian control over the release of nuclear weapons. Which makes the news report suspect about its claim that the political leadership was not informed.

The civilian leadership asking for India's sea-based nuclear assets to be deployed during the Dokalam crisis is consistent with reports of land- and airbased nuclear assets being put in place as well. It again shows how serious the situation was at the height of the crisis.

This, despite the fact that both India and China profess a no-first use policy. It shows India's lack of trust in the declared Chinese policy that required both sides to engage in confidence-building measures (CBMs).

India asking for the Arihant to be deployed against China indicates an operational long-range submarine launched ballistic missile (SLBM), apart from the 750 km range K-15 SLBM that will not be able to target China from the Bay of Bengal.

India has tested the K-4 SLBM, which has a range of 3,500 km. It also indicates the level of readiness of India's nuclear weapons, which were earlier kept in demated form which entailed the warheads and the missiles being kept separate.

This requires a sophisticated command and control system and safety measures that will prevent the release of nuclear weapons without authorisation from the political leadership.

The writer is Editor, Defence Forum India
https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...leshow/62468708.cms?__twitter_impression=true

 

[Kshatriya87]

Deep diving into the facts about INS Arihant 'accident'
By ET CONTRIBUTORS | Jan 12, 2018, 09.44 AM IST

By YUSUF T UNJHAWALA
On Monday, The Hindu reported that India's only operational nuclear ballistic missile submarine, INS Arihant, was out of action for about 10 months last year due to an accident. The report raises more questions than it answers due to its glaring technical and operational inconsistencies. First, the news item stated that the Arihant's propulsion compartment was damaged after water entered it, as a hatch on the rear side was left open by mistake.

The submarine has no hatches there. The Arihant is based on Russian double hull design with a sealed nuclear reactor section. Except for the latest French nuclear submarines that have a hatch above the reactor for quicker refuelling, no other country with nuclear submarines have such a system.


Although the Arihant's core is not designed to operate for the submarine's lifetime and will need refuelling, it does not have a hatch. To refuel, the hull will have to be cut open and welded back, as is the case for the Russian nuclear attack submarine, the Akula-II class that India has leased and operates as INS Chakra.

There are no external hatches in the compartment that houses the steam turbine, gearbox, generator and shaft that drives the propeller. Under normal circumstances, it is not possible for sea water to enter the submarine, and certainly not via a 'non-existent hatch'. It also not possible for a modern submarine that has various sensors to not have a warning system about an open hatch in any other area of the submarine critical for its survival.

Two, the news report says that the absence of Arihant from operations came to the political leadership's attention during the India-China military standoff at Dokalam when India allegedly wanted to deploy it.


This is unlikely as this would mean an across-the-board failure of intelligence and of the checks and balances in place. It also means the armed forces not keeping the civilian leadership in the loop, which is against the former's operating procedures.

INS Arihant carries sea-based nuclear weapons handled by the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) under the Nuclear Command Authority (NCA). The NCA compromises the Political Council headed by the Prime Minister and the Executive Council headed by the National Security Advisor (NSA), who advises the political council on the use of nuclear weapons.

Intelligence agencies like Intelligence Bureau (IB) and the Research and Analysis Wing (R&AW) report to the NSA. It is improbable that the NSA, arguably the most powerful person in the Indian security establishment, did not know about the status of an important strategic asset for 7-8 months, and learnt about the damage only at the time of a crisis.

Third, as sea-based deterrence requires mated warheads, it is a departure from the past when India kept its warheads and delivery systems separate. There are additional protocols to keep civilian control over the release of nuclear weapons. Which makes the news report suspect about its claim that the political leadership was not informed.

The civilian leadership asking for India's sea-based nuclear assets to be deployed during the Dokalam crisis is consistent with reports of land- and airbased nuclear assets being put in place as well. It again shows how serious the situation was at the height of the crisis.

This, despite the fact that both India and China profess a no-first use policy. It shows India's lack of trust in the declared Chinese policy that required both sides to engage in confidence-building measures (CBMs).

India asking for the Arihant to be deployed against China indicates an operational long-range submarine launched ballistic missile (SLBM), apart from the 750 km range K-15 SLBM that will not be able to target China from the Bay of Bengal.

India has tested the K-4 SLBM, which has a range of 3,500 km. It also indicates the level of readiness of India's nuclear weapons, which were earlier kept in demated form which entailed the warheads and the missiles being kept separate.

This requires a sophisticated command and control system and safety measures that will prevent the release of nuclear weapons without authorisation from the political leadership.

The writer is Editor, Defence Forum India
https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...leshow/62468708.cms?__twitter_impression=true

Article by bossman @Yusuf. Nice.

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk

 

[Yusuf]

Dhanyavad!

And yes the 30 char rule applies to me too

 

[lcafanboy]

Dhanyavad!

And yes the 30 char rule applies to me too

That was a rather deeply investigated & a very informative article. Hats off for your sharp eyes.

And yes bad news for our enemies......

 

[Kshatriya87]

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk

 

[Kshithij]

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk

China recognises India as a nuclear power. Everyone does. Even North Korea is recognised as nuclear power. What is needed is nuclear testing. One can't choose to deny the reality. China had acknowledged India's nuclear test in 1998 and thus recognised India as a nuclear power