Indian needs to wake up!

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by Crusader53, Mar 13, 2013.

  1. Crusader53

    Crusader53 Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    772
    Likes Received:
    34
    Location:
    Tampa, Florida
    Respectfully, India needs to wake up and put some serious pressure on Russia!


    Russia’s SU-35 Super-Flanker: Mystery Fighter No More





    March 7/13: China confirmed. China and Russia have apparently signed an intergovernmental agreement, as the 1st step toward a contract for 24 SU-35s. Reports credibly place the agreement date as January 2013, but contract negotiations could take a while.

    A trickle of reports from November 2012 to February claimed that Russia and China had a preliminary agreement in place, which would let them negotiate a deal for varying numbers of SU-35s. Russia’s Interfax confirmed the existence and date of that agreement in February 2013, but didn’t specify numbers. Now, a March 8/13 article in The Hindu confirms that talks involve 24 planes, a climbdown from Russia’s initial insistence on 48. The Russians are said to have more confidence that China can’t copy their engines, and are also said to need SU-35 orders, since Russia’s VVF is ordering follow-on buys of SU-30SMs instead. On the other side, there’s speculation that SU-35′s improved AL-117S engine could be “of interest” for China’s J-20 stealth plane. If so, it would be a setback to India on 2 fronts: breaking an old pattern by selling China a more modern fighter than India’s SU-30MKIs, and strengthening a competitor to the Indo-Russian PAK-FA stealth fighter project. South China Morning Post external link | Defense News external link | Voice of Russia external link | The Hindu external link.
     
  2.  
  3. Sam2012

    Sam2012 Tihar Jail Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    205
    Location:
    Bangalore
    China is buying Su-35 to counter USA, Southkorea, Taiwan & Japan all have F-15's , F-16's & F-18's , for them India is secondary target
    Why India should put pressure on Russia , will that really work Russia will say get lost because they will sell arms to any one @ prize they have not sold to offensive equipment to Pakis giving respect to India which more than enough

    But USA sells Arms to Pakis in the name of WOT through soft loan , may be u should stop that first

    U people are Superpower try & block the sale if u can , why ur bringing Indian equation in between Russia-China -NATO ?. Infact you block Russia from supplying Cryogenic rocket engine using MTCR , but same MTCR was violated by u nincompoops many times:mad:

    If u have guts face Russia & block the sale:taunt: , we are ok China getting Su-35BM :thumb:
     
    shom and Vishwarupa like this.
  4. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    24,272
    Likes Received:
    11,275
    Location:
    BANGalore
    India cannot put pressure on Russia on this. Russia should understand that one day the Chinese will come back to bite it and thy it's helping china do that. Short sighted move by Russia to sell anything to the Chinese.
     
    sesha_maruthi27 and A chauhan like this.
  5. Sam2012

    Sam2012 Tihar Jail Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    205
    Location:
    Bangalore
    Yusuf bhai

    Russia will sell its Arms to any country , they offered S-400 to Turkey & PAK-FA to South korea both the countries are very dear pal of USA. Russia does care only for business & $$$

    All China can do is reverse engineer Su-35 and produce in large numbers , is there a guarantee the copy cat Su-35 will match the mighty Su-35BM original one ? Do you think Russia will sell all top end sub systems to China given the notorious Copy cat strategy :taunt:

    If Chinese reverse Engineering products are so good , why they went to Su-35 in the first place?

    Yes we have to review the suituation , we have to speed up Super Sukhoi-30MKI induction & Scrap MMRCA since its immaterial now against Su-35 thats what i feel

    India should invest more on FGFA , AMCA & Fighter Drones using private expertise , Its my assumption feel free to rebut:thumb:
     
  6. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    24,272
    Likes Received:
    11,275
    Location:
    BANGalore
    We cannot afford to scrap MRCA. We don't have enough warplanes right now.
     
  7. Sam2012

    Sam2012 Tihar Jail Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    205
    Location:
    Bangalore
    Yusuf bhai , why can't we give a chance to LCA MK1, MK2 & Bigger MK3 version ? I don't see Rafale deal getting inked before 2014 polls
    If NDA wins then they push this deal further down if they don't get kickbacks , if UPA wins again back to square one start the process again find out how much more commision can be drawn . Choppergate scam has really put brakes on everything . Don't forget bofors because of that we are not able to Induct single Howitzer in 25+ years

    Now Su-35 purchase by China has sent tremors across Indian leadership , thanks to the media & western propaganda tellin Rafale is no match to Su-35:thumb:

    Ru Confident MMRCA will be signed this year?:rolleyes:
     
  8. arya

    arya Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    2,312
    Likes Received:
    340
    no one is saying to cancel mmrca but pls first give the order don't waste time..

    We can either gor 20-30 su35 or any equivalent fighter plane to counter China , we need on fast level till pakfa,super su30 will not come

    we have to fill the gap ....
     
  9. arya

    arya Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    2,312
    Likes Received:
    340
    let kill the enemy with the same weapon .

    Cant we go few su35...
     
  10. Sam2012

    Sam2012 Tihar Jail Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    205
    Location:
    Bangalore
    India will not buy Su-35 , infact it was offered to India in 2008 itself as alternative to MMRCA

    Livefist: Su-35 Super Flanker offered to India

    India thinks best suited for Air dominance is Su-30MKI , Super-30MKI & Mig-29SMT

    What we have to do is concentrate more on FGFA ,AMCA & nulify the threat posed by Su-35 , we have to look ahead instead going back again

    And have to work towards LCA platform maturity , Im not telling we should pit LCA against Su-35 in Dog fight which will be foolish , like pitting a Pegion Vs Terror Bird :taunt:

    We should not have a attiltute of matching fighter to fighter with china , then the maintainance will become a mess & we will end up in ARMS race which is not good at all:thumb:
     
  11. shom

    shom Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2012
    Messages:
    684
    Likes Received:
    654
    Location:
    Kolkata
    Now for Sukhoi 30mki:-

    The Su-30MK aeroplane has been designed on the platform of the Su-27UB; it is in series production in Komsomolsk-on-Amur and in Irkutsk.

    The Su-30MK is a two-seat highly-manoeuvrable fighter designed for air-superiority and strikes at ground and naval surface targets using a variety of guided and unguided ADO, with an option of supporting group actions.
    Now see the amount of advertisement given for sukhoi 35 and the amount given in Sukhoi 30MKI,, from this u can assume what kind of aircraft is sukhoi 35 and how much in dire need sukhoi has to sell su-35. GOT IT mate,,,,,,,
    courtesy:- Sukhoi Company (JSC) - Airplanes - Military Aircraft - Su-35
    Sukhoi Company (JSC) - Airplanes - Military Aircraft - Su-30МК
     
  12. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,233
    Likes Received:
    3,896
    Location:
    Holy Hell
    These are not war winning aircraft. Only inventory fillers.

    I don't know if South Block is worried. Especially when the Chinese are buying an aircraft that is a little more ahead compared to the MKI.

    We may not have to be worried as long as the MKI upgrades match up or exceed the Su-35 and the Rafale can deny the use of S-300 and S-400 derived SAMs.

    Yes. Reports continuously indicate it is nearly a done deal. Only a corruption allegation would stomp it. As of today, all the competitors seem to be happy with it since nobody has complained.
     
  13. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,233
    Likes Received:
    3,896
    Location:
    Holy Hell
    Yes. I do hope this deal is stopped for some reason or the other. Preferably the Chinese themselves cancel it.

    While I prefer this deal is canceled, I would still say we need not be overly worried about it.

    If you did not notice, the Russians have contracted for 60 MKIs (called Su-30SM) for themselves while they are purchasing only 48 Su-35s. Sure, more Su-35s are to follow, but this could be true for the Su-30SMs too. What gives more confidence is the fact that the follow on orders for 30 Su-30SMs was signed in the same year as the first 30 was contracted for. Shows the level of confidence the VVS has in the MKI even though they have parallel inductions of the Su-35s at the same time.

    Secondly, even though the Su-35 is advanced in its own right, according to Sukhoi test pilots, the PAKFA is simply far more advanced and capable than the Su-35. So it makes sense for the Russians to clinch this deal with the Chinese as they have a superior aircraft in development. The more money the Russians get from the Su-35s, the more money they can put in the PAKFA program. So this is a win-win situation for three countries, including India.

    As long as the numbers remain at 24, the Su-35s won't be a visible threat to India. Japan should be a bit more worried about it. Taiwan could be in shock right now and may already be knocking on the doors of the White House. In case the numbers balloon to around 200, India will have to be worried too. However by the time the Russians manage to have 200 Su-35s transferred to PLAAF, IAF will have as many Super MKIs apart from Rafales while starting inductions of PMF/FGFA.

    Also, I don't believe the Su-35s are being bought for its engines or avionics for the J-20. Rather the Su-35s may be for a genuine need by the PLAAF to induct advanced fighters this decade instead of the far more simpler J-11A and B. This is because they are already working on AESA for their aircraft which would mean they won't need Irbis-E. As for 117S, the Russians had offered it to the Chinese many years ago. So, the engine itself is on offer outside the Su-35 deal.
     
  14. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    24,272
    Likes Received:
    11,275
    Location:
    BANGalore
    @p2prada,

    Chinese wanted just one before. 24 seems to be a compromise. They will have 200 of these for sure but as something like J-35 copy pasta.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
    sesha_maruthi27 and hit&run like this.
  15. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,233
    Likes Received:
    3,896
    Location:
    Holy Hell
    I don't remember reading about China wanting just one. Initial negotiations was for 48 and came down to 24. Would be glad if corrected.

    They are not getting an assembly plant. All these will be direct from KNAAPO in fly away conditions.

    If they end up ripping off the Su-35 in 2020 and produce it after that, I'll be more than happy if they did. It will keep them a generation behind compared to India and will give us a clearer picture on the position of the J-20.
     
  16. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    24,272
    Likes Received:
    11,275
    Location:
    BANGalore
    I remember reading some report may be on DFI itself. It sounded ridiculous. But Russia refused. China said it wants to evaluate one plane before placing a bigger order.

    China wants the engine on it. Well not buy it but study the technology on it and clone it.
     
  17. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,233
    Likes Received:
    3,896
    Location:
    Holy Hell
    True, if you read a report about Su-33s. The Chinese wanted 2. Russia refused. J-15 flew and Russia canceled negotiations.

    This could be true. I will list out two possibilities I can think of.

    1. Considering they only need the engines, they could simply buy the engine directly at around $10 Million each instead of paying $5 Million for each aircraft.

    2. Buy the Su-35s and then clone the engine using the spares.

    In case 1, the deal is definitely cheaper. $10 Million for a few engines may cost as much as one or two planes. But in this case, Russia may not want to sign a contract for only a few engines. They might ask for a 100 engine contract instead. Apart from that there may be clauses on the use of the engines too. Like which aircraft will be powered by it and so on. Here, China may not be able to prove the aircraft type which will use the engines. It doesn't look like they have any which will accept the bigger 117S.

    In case 2, the deal is more expensive (even if a 100 engine contract is signed), but the deal is much more simpler while the numbers are too small to be a threat to anybody. The Chinese can always use the spare engines for this.

    @J20! @ice berg @shiphone

    Any opinions?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  18. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    24,272
    Likes Received:
    11,275
    Location:
    BANGalore
    Ok may be it was the 33 not 35. My bad.

    Still this deal is all about China wanting to clone for future mass production. 24 or 48 do not make sense in the larger scheme of things. Either engines or the plane or part thereof will be cloned.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  19. limit_sky

    limit_sky Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2013
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    Bhubaneswar
    I was under impression that China went about the deal to ultimately reverse engineer 117s engine.
    But as suggested by other forumers here the engine was available to them outside the deal so that may not be the reason.

    The negotiation news appeared quite long ago but then China went cold about it.But the deal now signals that their indigenous j-xx series may have ran into rough weather and appear late into the scene.
    Thus 1. China wants to remain in contention till their 5th gen j-xx arrives and also the lower number signifies that they dont want indigenous development to take a hit due to diversion of funds.
    2. Russia is pushing the sale of Su-35 export version against some kind of consultancy for engine development.

    Whatever may be the cause this may not be aimed at us as it was a well known fact MKI version was better than MKK version and it had been so for quite some years and it did not draw any knee jerk reaction from China.

    From our side also this news also donot deserve any knee jerk reaction we are on our path of upgrading our Su-30 MKI into Super Sukhhoi.(for specification pls. search forum.)and joint development of PAK-FA/FGFA.

    On the question on how long it will take China to reverse engineer the engine it remains to be seen.

    Their efforts towards tweaking RD-33 for single engine airframe was far from satisfactory.Although early delivery was cited as the reason then but I doubt any airframe with their indigenous engines have been delivered to Pakistan (its end user) till now.
     
  20. shiphone

    shiphone Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,473
    Likes Received:
    1,239
    1. I don't think we would clone the 117S ...china didn't clone the AL31F although PLAAF had the full ability to overhaul AL31 serial and Rebuild most of the parts on two Overhaul lines (and such facilities were not from Russia) by itself,and PLAAF will keep buying the original AL31 engines for those Su27SK,J11A,Su30MKK.
    BTW, some Indian member said that MKI projects would eat up most of the production of AL31 ,it's very far from the fact.. Russian never had any limits on AL31 sales...actually more than 1000 engines have been delivered ...two Russian company are manufacturing the AL31 serial...All or most of AL31F/Fn in China were from the Salyut which has a long term relationship with PLAAF and Aviation Industry and gained some funds for further AL31 development ...and the other one : NPO Saturn (the developper of AL31FP )will earn its share with the new 14500 Kgs level thrust 117S, but now Salyut is delivering the new AL31FM1(13500Kg ) and marketing the improved AL31Fn with thrust vectoring nozzle.

    2.So far ,as we knew ,117S's offer is a conditioned one which is PLAAF must buy the end product like Su35, and PLAAF would be the first foreign user of Su35 after years promotion and It may help the Russia to for further sales (like the Su27 case in 1992 and Su30MKK in 2001) . it's also the tradition of Russia-China Weapon Trading. many important individual item importing and Tech TOT were covered or attached to some big end product contracts...

    3.the WS15 project officially started in 2006, just one year early than J20 project...the plan was the final product should be delivered in around 2017. as we know, it is going well ... if any delay happened, it will be very obvious .let's wait to see.. and J20 would use Russian Engine to enter the service in round 2015 or 2017(there were two kinds of message from different reliable sources, I'm not sure which one is the node time). and this status of J20 would has limited High speed and acceleration ability but full Stealth feature and Next Gen Avionics which would be acceptable. PLAAF would get real stuff to simulate and evaluate the F22 threat to Air Defence System.

    4. J20 with Russian Engine was always in the Plan even at the bidding period of the Project : now ,PTs are flying with AL31, and first batchs was planned using Salyut AL31 FM2 (14500 kgs, same class as 117s). but it seems there was little info about the FM2 for years...so Saturn 117S may come as the replacement. btw, AL31FM1,2,3 were also known as 99M1,M2,M3.
    ----------------------
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
    p2prada likes this.
  21. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,233
    Likes Received:
    3,896
    Location:
    Holy Hell
    This makes sense.

    If 117S replaces the F and/or FM2, then this won't really match with your earlier comment about 117S being exported only with the Su-35. Or is there a particular minimum number of engines that must be bought?

    Can you clarify this?
     

Share This Page