Indian Navy Playing Catch-up with China

[Patriot]

MODs should not give him free hand like this. It doesn't mean if one posts more even if trollish should be given free hand.

 

[Bangalorean]

^^ I don't mind him posting whatever he wants, as long as he stops pretending to be a non-Chinese. Every post that the fool has made here is either Chinese-worshiping or India-vs-China crap. And the idiot expects us to believe that he is an Aussie.

We have lots of Chinese members here, and we have a lot of banter with them. Many times they make statements which I find offensive, but I rarely react. They are entitled to their views and opinions, as any patriotic Chinese. What gets my goat is frauds like this winton chap.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Thread cleaned..

 

[J20!]

China is not a blue navy force, But merely a coastal force, Why ?

1. It has no Aircraft carrier in her history, Its a essential part of Blue water force...

I don't disagree, but no-one has claimed that the PLAN is a blue water navy. Mind you neither is the IN. Both are green water navies working towards developing a blue water force. Same goes for the JMSDF and the ROKN. Unless you're calling them coastal navies as well?

2. It have 0 experience conducting a CBG in peace time also in War times..

I don't disagree. But when has that ever been a sign of a coastal navy. Australia lost all CBG carrier experience since the retirement and sale of HMAS Melbourne to China, yet I don't remember anyone calling them or the ROKN or the German Navy for that matter a coastal Navy. India may have old Viraat and her 10 Harriers in service, but that in no way indicates better offensive and defensive capabilities than the PLAN. India is still having to re-learn STOBAR operations despite having operated Viraat for the length they have since all CATOBAR experience was lost in the 3 decades the IN has been void of CATOBAR operations.

3. It have no Experience operating Multiple Large task forces thousand miles away from its own coasts during war times..

Maybe not during war times, (as our most recent naval engagements were against next door neighbor Vietnam), but the PLAN runs major Surface Group (supported SSNs) operations and drills through-out the Pacific and the Indian ocean. There are multiple reports of Chinese surface groups (task forces including but not limited to type 054A's, type 052B's, type 052C's, type 051C's, Luda's, the 903 under-way replenishment ship etc etc) operating beyond the first and second Island chain as well as the Malacca straight region(US reports suggest a Chinese analogue of SOSUS is deployed here and around its territorial waters) and beyond towards the Indian ocean and the Mediterranean Sea.

4. Its operational area is limited to SCS..

If you don't know anything about the Chinese navy, feel free to ask or even do a little research. There's no need to pretend. I'm tired of repeating myself over and over again, so imma recycle for this one:

Maybe you're referring to the PLAN's South Sea Fleet, which alone has 3 LPD's to the IN's single old ex-USN LPD, and 5 modern destroyers including 2 Type 052C's and Shenzen mentioned in the article vs the IN's 3 Delhi's which only carry 32km range Shtil... There is the North Sea Fleet and the East Sea Fleet as well, The East Sea Fleet as well has 4 Sovremeneys vs India's 3 Dehli's.

If the PLAN is confined to the SCS, then why is India always whinging over PLAN activities in the IN from the Malacca straight to the Gulf of Aden and below towards Madagascar and South Africa?

The SCS isn't the PLAN's only area of operations, anyone who bothered to look things up would know that, but i digress.

5. It have fewer morden resorces to secure vast Chinease coast lines, Most of her vessels are outdated destroyers from late 70 & 80s..

Fewer than who? The IN? The last time I checked, the IN had 9 modern surface escorts vs the PLAN's 22, and considering that India's coastline is just as vast, I'm guessing you're calling the IN a coastal navy too? Even with old vessels like the Luhu's(which are being retired with every new 052C/D commissioning) discounted, the PLAN still outnumbers the IN in Destroyers, SSK's, SSN's, SSBN's, LPD's, LST's, re-supply and logistics vessels etc etc.

Chinese Nuclear Subs rated most noisy among all other Nuclear Subs..
Wont need to comment as too few to count for securing there own vast coastal lines..

Chinese nuclear subs, just as the destroyers and frigates of the PLAN's past(type 054's, type 052's, type 051B's, type 052B's etc etc) serve as an evolutionary ladder and a testbed for new technologies as well as experience and knowledge base building assets. That's what proper research and development entails. The current Chinese nuclear submarine force (4 type 093 SSN's and 3 type 094 SSBN's) may not compare well to their modern Western and Russian counterparts in terms of noise emissions(according to reports), but they're still superior to anything India can produce, and provide the PLAN with nuclear submarine operations, maintenance and handling experience the IN wont match for a long while. Our type 093 SSN is still larger than your SSBN that carries 700km missiles as opposed to 9000km range JL2's on type 094's.

The nuclear fleet doesn't need to secure China's coastline, that's what its over 60 SSK's(32 of those being modern Kilo's, Song's, Yuan's and Qing's) are for, an area we still outnumber the IN more than 2 to 1 even discounting the PLAN's old Mings and Romeos which are being phased out. The IN currently has only one nuclear combatant, if we have too few then what about the IN? Or do your criticisms only apply to the PLAN alone?

The PLAN is much bigger and quite some way ahead of the IN at present, all the excuses and tall tails in the world wont change that.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I don't disagree, but no-one has claimed that the PLAN is a blue water navy. Mind you neither is the IN. Both are green water navies working towards developing a blue water force. Same goes for the JMSDF and the ROKN. Unless you're calling them coastal navies as well?

IMHO, PLAN is not a blue navy but just Projected itself to be in the same catagory what IN was doing in late 80s..

IN is not a pure blue water navy as USN but not a green water navy either, It have assets and experience and it was tested in war times so does in Peace times..

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JMSDF is a blue water Navy without a doubt but not ROKN..

I don't disagree. But when has that ever been a sign of a coastal navy. Australia lost all CBG carrier experience since the retirement and sale of HMAS Melbourne to China, yet I don't remember anyone calling them or the ROKN or the German Navy for that matter a coastal Navy. India may have old Viraat and her 10 Harriers in service, but that in no way indicates better offensive and defensive capabilities than the PLAN. India is still having to re-learn STOBAR operations despite having operated Viraat for the length they have since all CATOBAR experience was lost in the 3 decades the IN has been void of CATOBAR operations.

You have Misinterpreted the comment, I focus more on operational readiness of a Navy with Blue water Operation, In Which IN is very well skilled..

The type of Operation in War are carried out even when Vikrant was retired, It matter least about type of platform, IN ( Harrier ) pilots are trained over USN CV, With unfamiliar CV & aircraft and returned back to India Qualified..

Maybe not during war times, (as our most recent naval engagements were against next door neighbor Vietnam), but the PLAN runs major Surface Group (supported SSNs) operations and drills through-out the Pacific and the Indian ocean. There are multiple reports of Chinese surface groups (task forces including but not limited to type 054A's, type 052B's, type 052C's, type 051C's, Luda's, the 903 under-way replenishment ship etc etc) operating beyond the first and second Island chain as well as the Malacca straight region(US reports suggest a Chinese analogue of SOSUS is deployed here and around its territorial waters) and beyond towards the Indian ocean and the Mediterranean Sea.

It was minor engagement which was targeting Vietnamese troop transporters, PLAN does conduct such drills but how often ? Compare to IN conduct such drills during Malabar also its own Major drills in every 6 months..

If you don't know anything about the Chinese navy, feel free to ask or even do a little research. There's no need to pretend. I'm tired of repeating myself over and over again, so imma recycle for this one:

Can you show where North Sea Fleet and the East Sea Fleet operate ? and IN never had any issues with PLAN anti-piracy activities but Spy fishing boats..

Fewer than who? The IN? The last time I checked, the IN had 9 modern surface escorts vs the PLAN's 22, and considering that India's coastline is just as vast, I'm guessing you're calling the IN a coastal navy too? Even with old vessels like the Luhu's(which are being retired with every new 052C/D commissioning) discounted, the PLAN still outnumbers the IN in Destroyers, SSK's, SSN's, SSBN's, LPD's, LST's, re-supply and logistics vessels etc etc.

There is no comparison as both Navy operate in different manner, here i see confused facts which ended with silly conclusions..

1. You are not aware of India `s coast lines are mainly guarded by Indian Coast guards, It has 400 dedicated armed vessels from medium to large..

2. IN oldest Ship Rajput class ( Barak 1, PJ-10, New Radar and EW Suit ) are equally good as New modern vessels, total 15 as per now..

To above point, My argument stand still, PLAN is modernizing but not yet, merely 22 vessels give no big capability to reach blue waters for now..

but they're still superior to anything India can produce, maintenance and handling experience the IN wont match for a long while. Our type 093 SSN is still larger than your SSBN that carries 700km missiles as opposed to 9000km range JL2's on type 094's.The IN currently has only one nuclear combatant, if we have too few then what about the IN? Or do your criticisms only apply to the PLAN alone?

Your Argument about superiority of PLAN stands with two points

1. Submarine force & Experience..

2. Long Range AD Ships..


Now I will go countering your points :

1. Submarine..

Its an empty claim that India cannot produce better Nuclear Subs that is because you have lack of Knowledge about Indian Nuclear Sub Program & development, From its Hull deign to its reactor all are modern deign from late 90s compare to PLAN Nuclear Subs, Its Sonar and other are French / Russian influenced and directed, there is little on its technical aspect but what ever there is generations ahead of present PLAN front-line Nuclear Subs..

Regarding experience, India had operated Nuclear Sub before, So your Argument about experience is not valid..
Also India is investing heavily on ASW Aircraft from long range to Medium with existing TU-142ME and IL-38Ds..

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2. Long Range AD Ships..

China have S-300 or clone of it one its Ships which is impressive but its main role is for Air-defense and Against Anti-Ship Missiles & Aircrafts with a Range of 150-200kms Only, Where as India do not need as it have Aircraft carrier for Air-defense and it can strike / Defend way more then 1000kms around it, Against Anti-ship defense, IN relay mainly on CIWS..

 

[mikhail]

Why is an Aussie hell bent on proving that China is a blue water navy?

mate i can bet that he isn't an Aussie.for what i heard in some international forums aussies are very concerned about the growing capabilities of the chini navy and nearly all of them consider china a threat,on the other hand they don't consider the IN as a potential threat(i can vouch on that)!this person is surely either a false flagger or a chini immigrant to Australia and not a real Australian!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Whatever he is not worth discussing..

mate i can bet that he isn't an Aussie.for what i heard in some international forums aussies are very concerned about the growing capabilities of the chini navy and nearly all of them consider china a threat,on the other hand they don't consider the IN as a potential threat(i can vouch on that)!this person is surely either a false flagger or a chini immigrant to Australia and not a real Australian!

 

[afako]

You haven't backed up your coastal claim still or countered any of my arguments... Give me a source for what you're saying... The Pakistani's actually GAVE UP their deal for German SSK's for Chinese analogs. That should tell YOU something. The fact that the PLAN gave up buying SSK's and Destroyers from Russia like the Kilo's or the Sovremeney's should tell you something as well. That the PLAN is able to acquire AIP SSK's domestically, from Chinese shipyards in today's hostile and very competitive Pacific environment should also prove their quality. When the PLAN could not source quality ships from Chinese shipyards in the 90's they looked abroad with the Kilo's and the Sovremeneys. That is the stage the IN is at now with Indian shipyards unable to produce domestic designs, thus the Scorpene deal and the new 6 sub tender. If Chinese shipyards couldn't produce quality warships the PLAN would look to Russia again like it has done in the past. And looking at the sad shape of Russian shipyards, are they even comparable to the modern well-equipped Chinese shipyards like HD, HP, Dialan, JN etc etc which churn out more modern warship than Indian and Russian shipyards combined?

Gorshkov Class Frigates and P17A pack more Fire Power than Type 052C.

Chinese shipyards perfected they're shipbuilding techniques over several designs as is evident in the long chain of the Type 051/052 AAW destroyer family over the past decade and a half since the first indigenously designed Type 052 in '94 then the Type 051B in '98 the 052B in 2004, the S300FM carrying 051C in 2006, and the Chinese first generation AESA AAW destroyer for the PLAN the type 052C in 2005 and now the recently launched Chinese 2nd generation AESA AAW Type 052D.

Indian and Russian Navies can Conceptualize and make their own Designs with Doctrines. PLAN devoid of any Naval Doctrine can only try to make an Equivalent of others. Case in being 054s, 054As (Kirvak Doctrine), 052 Class Family (AEGIS Doctrine). While Shivalik Class (World's Largest Stealth Frigate at 6200 Tonnes) and Gorshkov Class (Standard Russian Warship for the Next Generation) are Custom Tailored built for the Respective Navies according to their doctrines.

That's 7 years of maturing in active service between the 052C and 052D. Of course the learning curve for India will be shorter due to the input of western tech, but Chinese shipyards are ahead of their Indian counterparts considering that they may have their 2nd generation AESA destroye(type 052D)r in service before their Indian counterparts launch their first gen AESA destroyer in the P15A.

Which Chinese Destroyer has actually been Mass Produced? While Work on P15B has already Started.

You cant tell me that after that long 18 year development period over 6 evolutionary designs that those GIGANTIC shipyards with all they're shipbuilding technology still cant they produce class quality warships. Same goes for the Kilo, Song, Yuan, Qing class SSK's and the Jiangwei I, Jiangwei II, type 054 and Type 054A frigates. They have been honing their modern warship shipbuilding prowess over decades.

Let me quote a dated post from another forum for you to let you how does each Chinese Class compare to Indian Navy:

even after the rapid and widely noted expansion of PLAN in 90's and 2000's, this is PLAN's current modern surface fleet that can be theoretically deployed against India. of course doing that will make the PRC homeland naked and for all practical purposes they won't be able to spare more than 20% (at considerable stretch, considering the commitments against USN, RoCN, JMSDF, ROKN and VPN at its doorstep) of that fleet for IOR.

destroyers
2+2 sovremenny + imprv ....... 4 ships (roughly equivalent to delhi class with less ASW capability)
051B luhai .......................... 1 ship (design considered inadequate with no follow up construction. very weak AD capability)
051C luzhou ....................... 2 ships (AAW destroyer with strong SAM component but outdated superstructure and propulsion for its time)
052 luhu ............................ 2 ships (roughly equivalent to brahmaputra class)
052B ................................ 2 ships (PLAN's first stealthy multi-role destroyers, roughly equivalent to IN's talwar class frigate)
052C ................................ 2 ships (stealthy AAW destroyer, strong SAM component)

that's 13 in all. do note that many of PLAN's destroyers would be dubbed as frigates in IN service.
now let's have a look at the frigates, bearing in mind that most would be unfit for service outside of PRC's territorial waters. the ones that can operate in the high seas are

054 class ........................ 2 ships (roughly equivalent to brahmaputra class but with less punch in both ASW and anti-surface role)
054A class ...................... 8 ships (roughly equivalent to talwar class frigate)

10 in all

so that's 23 modern ocean capable assets in all with another 3-4 in construction. kindly bear in mind that only a small portion of this can be deployed against IN. we should also consider the requirement of support vessels for any such deployment.

IN itself can bring 5 kashin + 3 brahmaputra + 3 godavari + 3 delhi + 3 talwar + 1 shivalik (18 in all) to the table. in addition we have under construction 3 talwars, 2 shivaliks, 3 kolkata and 4 P28.
another 3 stealth destroyers and 7 stealth frigates are in advanced planning. moreover, since any such conflict will take place in our backyard we can easily commit the pocket destroyers, the kora and khukri class corvettes (4 each) which pack as much punch as a destroyer minus the range and SAM cover. then of course there is the prospect of land based missiles and aircrafts.

The PLAN has 16 modern frigates next to the IN's 7 and 3 modern long range AESA equipped AAW destroyers versus the IN's 0, 7 AIP subs versus IN's 0 and 4 modern electric drive SSN's versus the IN's 1, I wont even mention the LPD and Marines department. Only the JMSDF right now can challenge the PLAN in modern warships amongst Asian navies, and that wont last long given the PLAN's rapid acquisition of ships. If we are coastal, what are you?

Forgive me for the rant bra, but I cant help blurt everything out like that when people question PLAN warship's not based on facts and knowledge but on bias and in ignorance.

6 Talwars + 3 Brahmaputras + 3 Shivaliks + 7 P17A

These are actually superior to your Destroyers in terms of Fire Power. Yet IN classifies them as Frigates. If we apply the Indian Navy's Protocol of Classification (Every Navy has its own), PLAN would become a Green Water Navy.

This is where you stand in SSN:

India has Akula 2.

Also Arihant SSBN has Akula Generation Tech.

I watched the launch of India's first nuclear submarine at Vishakapatnam on July 26, and do you know about the design of this submarine? It is the Akula (the Russian submarine).

'More upgrades will hike the Gorshkov's price'

India leads in SSN and SSBN Department by Generations!

 

[J20!]

IMHO, PLAN is not a blue navy but just Projected itself to be in the same catagory what IN was doing in late 80s..

IN is not a pure blue water navy as USN but not a green water navy either, It have assets and experience and it was tested in war times so does in Peace times..

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JMSDF is a blue water Navy without a doubt but not ROKN..

The IN has fewer modern ships, fewer modern ships, fewer modern submarines and a much poorer communications satellite network(non existant actually), a smaller surveillance network, expeditionary amphibious capability far inferior to that of even the ROKN(whose amphibious fleet is far smaller and less capable than that of the PLAN) etc etc, yet you want to tell me that it's still ahead of China's Navy?

Green-water navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The IN is no where near a blue water navy. Can the IN launch operations thousands of nautical miles away from its coasts something the British did in the Falklands in the 80's? Does the IN even have the logistic infrastructure and port agreements in place to sustain a multiple large task forces and CBG's and Amphibious Task forces at multiple points around the globe simultaneously as the USN, RN and MN do continuously?
I'm not talking about a 2 or 3 four-ship task-forces deployed in the Indian Ocean alone and rare port visits outside the IOR as the IN does now. At present, the IN is firmly a green water Navy as is the bigger PLAN.

The JMSDF is a defensive force as highlighted by their constitution, they do not have foundations of any kind laid down for operations far away from their immediate surroundings(the Pacific). They have a very advanced navy far bigger than the IN, ROKN and the RAN and though smaller, they are presently more technologically advanced than the PLAN, but they still have no significant offensive reach beyond the reach of their long range SSK's...

It was minor engagement which was targeting Vietnamese troop transporters, PLAN does conduct such drills but how often ? Compare to IN conduct such drills during Malabar also its own Major drills in every 6 months..

Each of China's 3 fleets conduct major drills, exercises and operations regularly within and beyond their areas of operation( SCS, the Yellow Sea, the Pacific Ocean within and beyond the first and second island chains and beyond with operations in the Mediterranean and Indian Ocean). The East Fleet alone has held 3 major drills in and beyond the first and into the second island chain. The South Sea fleet has already held different amphibious exercises with different countries including Thailand and Malaysia as well as now regular nuclear submarine operations away from the SCS, multiple surface action groups in and around the SCS and beyond the Malacca Straight into the IOR AND anti-piracy operations in the Gulf of Aden.
If you checked, you'd see this covers more ocean than the IN regularly deploy to.

1. You are not aware of India `s coast lines are mainly guarded by Indian Coast guards, It has 400 dedicated armed vessels from medium to large..

Dude you should really do a little research before you post.

China's coast guard fleet is much larger than India's with more large tonnage vessels(including large frigates handed over from the Navy) than the Indian coast guard does, with 20 individual China Coast Guard flotillas (CCG flotillas are the largest operational units of the China Coast Guard) operating from 20 different ports all along the Chinese coastline. It even has a submarine rescue division which recently held drills in conjunction with the East Sea fleet.

China Coast Guard - SinoDefence.com

Even forgetting the coast guard, China has a huge maritime surveillance fleet. They've probably dedicated more resource than any other nation into building a MS fleet over the past 10 years with over 400 vessels including the new 5000 ton haixun-01 and at their disposal...

China Wiki – The free encyclopedia on China, china.org.cn

2. IN oldest Ship Rajput class ( Barak 1, PJ-10, New Radar and EW Suit ) are equally good as New modern vessels, total 15 as per now..

hahaha! A Ship that still operates the museum worthy Soviet Styx ASM's as seen on the Rajput that visited Shanghai recently can never be considered modern:

If you consider these modern, then the recent upgrades to the Luhu's (including new ASM's SAM's, ECM, and radar suites) are surely modern. And considering that each of the 3 fleet operates circa 6 Luhu class destroyers, (under your criteria) that would push the number of modern vessels in the PLAN to 36 modern escort class vessels.

To above point, My argument stand still, PLAN is modernizing but not yet, merely 22 vessels give no big capability to reach blue waters for now..

Then that also applies to the IN does it not? The PLAN and the IN are green water navies despite your suggestions of IN superiority which are really not supported by the equipment available to each Navy. Both the RM and MN have circa 22 escort surface vessels in total, and they are blue water naval forces. Or do you disagree?

Your Argument about superiority of PLAN stands with two points

1. Submarine force & Experience..

2. Long Range AD Ships..

3. Communications satellite networks and datalinks.

4. Number of world class naval academies

5. Number of modern Warships(including surface vessels and submarines)

6. A bigger, better equipped Amphibious force with better vessels and large numbers of amphibious armour

7. Many more modern well equipped naval air stations and naval bases such as the new nuclear submarine bases on Hainan Island.

8. The PLAN has a dedicated air arm with more modern fixed and rotary wing aircraft(including fixed wing fighters like the M2K, MKK J11BS and J10S etc etc.) Not to mention the newly revealed J31 fifth gen fighter and better AWACS platforms like the two new PLANAF KJ200 regiments.

etc. etc.

Now I will go countering your points :

1. Submarine..

Its an empty claim that India cannot produce better Nuclear Subs that is because you have lack of Knowledge about Indian Nuclear Sub Program & development, From its Hull deign to its reactor all are modern deign from late 90s compare to PLAN Nuclear Subs, Its Sonar and other are French / Russian influenced and directed, there is little on its technical aspect but what ever there is generations ahead of present PLAN front-line Nuclear Subs..

Regarding experience, India had operated Nuclear Sub before, So your Argument about experience is not valid

Again you're guessing. You don't know what sonar and other sensor suites are on the PLAN's new SSN's and SSBN's. The new generation Yuan and Qing SSK's feature new systems derived from analogues operating on the new nuclear boats, eg the new all-electric drive systems on the Shang's and Type 094's that have been adopted for use on both the Qing's and Yuan's. Arihant doesn't feature an all electric ship propulsion system does it?

Chinese shipyards have already completed 4 Type 093 SSN's and 4 type 094 SSBN's, next their Indian counterparts who only have one nuclear sub on trials. The PLAN operates 7 modern nuclear submarines versus the IN's 1. That translates to much more operational experience and training. The IN has only ever operated 2 yet you want to tell me they are ahead of the PLAN? That translates to one or two trained crews versus a minimum of 8 nuclear sub crews with a number of officers holding over 2 decades of nuclear submarine operations at the PLAN's disposal. The IN may hold the edge over the PLAN in AC operations, but the PLAN more than makes up for it in SSN operational experience and training for many more naval officers.

2. Long Range AD Ships..

China have S-300 or clone of it one its Ships which is impressive but its main role is for Air-defense and Against Anti-Ship Missiles & Aircrafts with a Range of 150-200kms Only, Where as India do not need as it have Aircraft carrier for Air-defense and it can strike / Defend way more then 1000kms around it, Against Anti-ship defense, IN relay mainly on CIWS..

What kind of Blue water navy has no area air defense AAW platforms? France has a much better aircraft carrier with rafale's and AWACS coverage, yet it has two modern area defense capable AAW platforms in the Horizons, the RN has 3 Daring's operational, the USN has Burkes and Tico's available.

Though not a blue water navy, the PLAN has 3 new area air defense AAW platforms in the 3 Type 052C's (capable of identifying targets 400km away and engaging them at 160km with long range HQ9 SAMs) with 3 more almost done and 3 new type 052D class destroyers already identified in Chinese shipyards which feature new, larger fixed AESA arrays and a brand new universal VLS system capable of launching not only new 200 km range HQ9A's but quad packable medium range SAM's (like the new VLS lanched PL12 sky dragon system), ASM's and 2200km range TLAM's.

The Indian Navy on the other hand doesn't have a single operational area air defense platform in operation(with only 32km Shtil carrying Dehli's for AAW cover) and wont have one(in the type 052C equivalent Kolkata class) until 2014, when the type 052D will likely be operational judging from build progress. Even the two 150km range S300FM carrying type 051C AAW destroyers are much more capable than the Dehli's, let alone the 052C's.

Stop assuming things and read up on the PLAN and judge it against the IN yourself. Factually speaking, right now, the PLAN is the larger, and better equipped navy overall The writer of the article may be a sensationalist, but he is right at the end of the day. Anyone who looked at fact sheets from both navies and their equipment and its numbers would reach the same conclusion, bias and nationalism aside.

 

[mikhail]

another substandard comment and false chest thumbing by a 50 center!hope you get 50 cents extra for this kind of utter b.s.:bs:yeah the IN may be quanititively inferior than the PLAN but enjoys clear superiority in quality and skill!most of your diesel submarines are the reverse engineered version of the Soviet Romeo class,Kilo class and Wiskey class subs which are thoroughly obsolete in the 21st century sub-warfare!

 

[J20!]

another substandard comment and false chest thumbing by a 50 center!hope you get 50 cents extra for this kind of utter b.s.:bs:yeah the IN may be quanititively inferior than the PLAN but enjoys clear superiority in quality and skill!most of your diesel submarines are the reverse engineered version of the Soviet Romeo class,Kilo class and Wiskey class subs which are thoroughly obsolete in the 21st century sub-warfare!

So I gather you cant counter even one of my points with a technical, factual argument... All i;ve posted I can back up with up to date info so its clear whose bull shitting and hollow chest thumping here. Even your own countrymen responsible for this article is on my side, you as usual, are just burying your head in the sand and throwing around useless generalizations.

Lemme know when you can counter my post backed up with sources, otherwise, ciao!

 

[ice berg]

No need to feed trolls like him. Add him to your ignore list.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its ridiculous comparing apple with oranges a Blue Navy force founded not on the basis of equipment but elements plue if had experience it has much better force, your argument goes like replacing CV with destroyer and self proclaimed Blue water navy forces..

despite your suggestions of IN superiority which are really not supported by the equipment available to each Navy.

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Each of China's 3 fleets conduct major drills, exercises and operations regularly within and beyond their areas of operation( SCS, the Yellow Sea, the Pacific Ocean within and beyond the first and second island chains and beyond with operations in the Mediterranean and Indian Ocean).

Yet again you are repeating the same argument, I asked earlier how often ? and not about anti-piracy and recuse missions..

Dude you should really do a little research before you post.China's coast guard fleet is much larger than India's with more large tonnage vessels(including large frigates handed over from the Navy) than the Indian coast guard does, with 20 individual China Coast Guard flotillas

Even forgetting the coast guard, China has a huge maritime surveillance fleet. They've probably dedicated more resource than any other nation into building a MS fleet over the past 10 years with over 400 vessels including the new 5000 ton haixun-01 and at their disposal...

How many vessels in a flotilla ? maratine force have just over 400 vessels ?

hahaha! A Ship that still operates the museum worthy Soviet Styx ASM's as seen on the Rajput that visited Shanghai recently can never be considered modern:

You just showed you level of knowledge..

6. A bigger, better equipped Amphibious force with better vessels and large numbers of amphibious armour

Some of other mentioned are common in Major Navies including IN, An Amphibious force without any fleet supports in just a troop transport fleet with escorts vulnerable to every thing else in the battlefield..

Again you're guessing. You don't know what sonar and other sensor suites are on the PLAN's new SSN's and SSBN's.

Some thing design in 80s may be 70s are obsolete designs and ineffective against modern adversaries of late 90s designs..

Its silly to say to defend it..

Though not a blue water navy, the PLAN has 3 new area air defense AAW platforms in the 3 Type 052C's (capable of identifying targets 400km away and engaging them at 160km with long range HQ9 SAMs

Then there no worth even mentioning it, If you still insist, In operational sense one cannot replace a carrier with a Destroyer, Its futile to show destroyer capability to compare with a CV..

An Carrier play as the center focus of the fleet, IN CV can strike and defend 1000km range around it, A CV in IN can track 1000km away target with or without help of its own EW helos and can destroy it 1000kms away on land or sea, that is why CV are main element of any Blue water Navy force..

 

[vishwaprasad]

So I gather you cant counter even one of my points with a technical, factual argument... All i;ve posted I can back up with up to date info so its clear whose bull shitting and hollow chest thumping here. Even your own countrymen responsible for this article is on my side, you as usual, are just burying your head in the sand and throwing around useless generalizations.

Lemme know when you can counter my post backed up with sources, otherwise, ciao!

Fact is PLAN or PRC shipping routs are vulnerable to IN in Malacca straits....during war time we can actually choke your sea trade at our wish....only choice for China will be to sneak her sea traffic from the waters near Australia to reach China, (that too will be in the danger zone of Flankers taking off from Andamans) which will be time and resource consuming job. Agree that China is much more powerful than India but during war times your shipping lines will always be at the mercy of India, If you think that China is capable of breaking that blockade by India and open the sea routes then sorry its not possible till China becomes something like US

 

[J20!]

Its ridiculous comparing apple with oranges a Blue Navy force founded not on the basis of equipment but elements plue if had experience it has much better force, your argument goes like replacing CV with destroyer and self proclaimed Blue water navy forces..

Apples and oranges? When have i ever said destroyers can replace aircraft carriers? Give excuses as much as you want kunal but you can never have a blue water navy without AAD ships. What the IN have are fleet air defense ships in Dehli's, Talwars and Shivaliks with their Shtil compliments. I've given you examples of blue water navies, with world class carrier's and airwings generations ahead of the IN's 50 year old Viraat and her 10 obsolete Sea harriers. The MN have De Gaule and her Rafales and E2C's and the Americans their Nimitz class carriers and their F18C/D/E/F and E2C and E2D's, yet they also have some of the best AAD ships in the world in Horizons and Aleigh Burkes and/or Ticonderoga's.
A single modern AAD destroyer can sanitize over 500km of airspace anywhere in the world, usually clearing the way for a CBG or providing air defense for an amphibious fleet or an ASW flotilla. No blue water navy on earth can claim not to need such capabilities, especially the IN with their very outdated carrier.

Not even the IN themselves have ever claimed they are a blue water navy, I don't know why you are... They are a green water navy, same as all the other large navies in Asia.

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Yet again you are repeating the same argument, I asked earlier how often ? and not about anti-piracy and recuse missions..

In 2012 alone, the ESF has already held 3 large live-fire drills within and beyond the first island chain, with several more within the first island chain. And "The South Sea fleet has already held different amphibious exercises with different countries including Thailand and Malaysia as well as now regular nuclear submarine operations away from the SCS, multiple surface action groups in and around the SCS and beyond the Malacca Straight into the IOR AND anti-piracy operations in the Gulf of Aden." All these are this year alone. That's much more than your bi annual Malabar. Each fleet conduct multiple large fleet operation in home water and beyond into the first island chain and the IOR every year.

How many vessels in a flotilla ? maratine force have just over 400 vessels ?

Depends on the port they're based in.. eg coast guard vessels in under the Shanghai flotilla alone number more than 20. The Maritime Surveillance Fleet was founded in 1998 and today they number more than 400 vessels. Mind you this is a different service to the coast guard, which itself has more than 400 vessels in service.

The Chinese Maritime Surveillance (CMS) is to commission 36 new cutters from 2010 to 2012 including seven 1500 ton class, fifteen 1000 ton class and fourteen 600 ton class "to better protect China's maritime interests".

China Defense Blog: Chinese Maritime Surveillance (CMS) to commission 36 cutters in 3 years.

China increases its surveillance fleet capabilities - Taipei Times

Not only is this a bigger surveillance fleet than India's but it's also growing much faster than India's.

Some of other mentioned are common in Major Navies including IN, An Amphibious force without any fleet supports in just a troop transport fleet with escorts vulnerable to every thing else in the battlefield..

That's exactly the problem with the IN's amphibious fleet...

And considering that we have more than double the escorts, more than triple the landing craft and hovercraft(not forgetting the new Zubr's from Ukraine), LPD's were the IN have non and a large naval air arm with fighters, AWACS, refuelers, large cargo aircraft and a fleet of transport helicopters and gunships etc etc, you cant possibly claim to have a better amphibious force than we do. Yet here you are claiming the IN is a blue water navy when even the ROKN trounces anything the IN can offer in amphibious warfare.

Oh, please dude. A communications satellite network is something that is definitely not something "common" to the IN considering they have never had a single dedicated comm satellite till date.

Some thing design in 80s may be 70s are obsolete designs and ineffective against modern adversaries of late 90s designs..

Its silly to say to defend it.

If you're saying China wwas able to develop an all electric drive propulsion system for its SSN's and SSBN's in the 70's then that's quite the compliment considering they HADN'T BEEN INVENTED YET. I'll say it again, if you don't know, ask. Don't posture and pretend. The Arrihant doesn't have an all electric drive propulsion system. Even our AIP SSK's(Yuan's and Qing's) have that.

Speaking of which the IN still doesn't have a single AIP sub in service, and wont have one until the next batch of Scorpenes are modified and are ready for service. The PLAN has 7 and first commisioned the Yuan in 2007. You're claiming to be able to develop modern SSN's better than ours, yet Indian shipyards HAVE NEVER WORKED ON EVEN AN SSK DESIGN LET ALONE AN SSN, and the IN had to ask Russia for a lease for 1 SSN and nuclear boat training.

The PLAN has been operating them for 2 decades and has been able to source modern SSN's and multiple SSBN's from local shipyards.The IN is still looking for more Russian SSN's is it not?
If that's your definition of IN superiority then I cant help you.

Then there no worth even mentioning it, If you still insist, In operational sense one cannot replace a carrier with a Destroyer, Its futile to show destroyer capability to compare with a CV..

An Carrier play as the center focus of the fleet, IN CV can strike and defend 1000km range around it, A CV in IN can track 1000km away target with or without help of its own EW helos and can destroy it 1000kms away on land or sea, that is why CV are main element of any Blue water Navy force..

Hahahahaaaa!!!! *Ow! My ribs!* India's sea harrier's cant strike anything 1000km away. The 1000km combat radius figure you got from Wikipedia is from land bases, and even then, it could only carry 2 a2a missiles to that distance with additional EFT to get there.

Second, there is only one Viraat to go around. How is she going to provide air cover for all of the IN at once? The ships that visited Shanghai recently had to travel thousands of km without AAD destroyer coverage. The PLAN usually deploys flotilla's over long range with either 051C cover or 052C cover. And considering Viraat isn't even operational for half the year with only 10 very old Sea Harriers which don't even have spares, it's pretty obvious that the IN is in desperate need for long-range AAD ships, and they wont have any till 2014 when Kolkata will be commissioned. And even then Kolkata's Barak 8 doesn't have the long range of HQ9 or SM2/3 0r Aster 30 and wont have long range till the 100km range version becomes operational, and when is that again?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I cannot argue with you who is trying to project blue water forces based on its few destroyers with what so ever nothing have fleet air-support or concept of CV..

Sorry, blue water forces dont work like this, IN have much mature crew and experience both war and peace, It operate from Arabian sea to Andaman sea and IOR..

It have its own bases from Madagascar to Andamans..

It have all the elements for a blue Navy force where as PLAN still trying to grasp the concept of Blue water force, An Example is recent PLAN carrier call as experimental CV..

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You might Google for facts before getting to yours silly conclusions..

 

[mikhail]

I cannot argue with you who is trying to project blue water forces based on its few destroyers with what so ever nothing have fleet air-support or concept of CV..

Sorry, blue water forces dont work like this, IN have much mature crew and experience both war and peace, It operate from Arabian sea to Andaman sea and IOR..

It have its own bases from Madagascar to Andamans..

It have all the elements for a blue Navy force where as PLAN still trying to grasp the concept of Blue water force, An Example is recent PLAN carrier call as experimental CV..

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You might Google for facts before getting to yours silly conclusions..

kunal sir let them babble mindlessly on the superiority of the PLAN!we all know the truth that PLAN has no capability at present to challenge the IN in the IOR!:cool2:

 

[J20!]

I cannot argue with you who is trying to project blue water forces based on its few destroyers with what so ever nothing have fleet air-support or concept of CV..

Sorry, blue water forces dont work like this, IN have much mature crew and experience both war and peace, It operate from Arabian sea to Andaman sea and IOR..

It have its own bases from Madagascar to Andamans..

It have all the elements for a blue Navy force where as PLAN still trying to grasp the concept of Blue water force, An Example is recent PLAN carrier call as experimental CV..

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You might Google for facts before getting to yours silly conclusions..

I've never claimed the PLAN was a blue water navy. I've said from the beginning that they are a green water navy and provided links to verify my claim that both the IN and PLAN are green water navies working towards blue water operations...

Claiming that the current IN is bluewater is just the joke of the year as far as I'm concerned.

You haven't countered a single one of my points regarding the IN's shortcomings in the form of:

1. AAD platforms,

2. AIP subs,

3. lack of sufficient SSN cover,

4. No operational SSBN's,

5. No expeditionary amphibious capability,

6. No communications satellite networks to support large capacity secure data-links,

7. Fewer naval academies than both the PLAN and JMSDF

8. A much less capable surveillance network

9. Less than half the modern escorts available to the PLAN

and you want to claim that the IN has better sailors than the PLAN and thus the IN is the better navy, and is a blue water navy forgetting that the much bigger PLAN has many more trained officers and sailors who are actual GRADUATES of its many naval academies.

All these deficiencies vis a vis the PLAN and you're claiming the IN is better because they have a 50 year old carrier who's fixed wing aircraft has been decimated by more than 60% due to accidents and crashes over its operational life in the IN and is now left with 10 old sea harriers with no spares..
I get that you're nationalistic, but now you're just being ridiculous. How can the navy with the least ships, the least com sat s, the SMALLEST BUDGET, the fewer trained personal, and the fewer graduates be the better navy?

The JMSDF is a much better navy than the IN yet the last war they fought was WW2 and haven't had an aircraft carrier with fixed wing aircraft since WW2. It has better ships, it has some of the best AAD destroyers in the world in the Atago's, a much better SSK force with AIP capability, better communication networks, better educated officers and sailors and a much more advanced and much larger surveillance network. Yet even the JMSDF isn't considered a blue water navy and you want to tell me the inferior IN is a blue water navy?

Cite a naval expert who ranks the IN over the PLAN. Just one. Otherwise, keep on dreaming buddy...

 

[p2prada]

I don't disagree with J-20. In the last 5 years, China has progressed by leaps and bounds while India has lagged due to delays.

While Arihant and Nerpa are feathers in IN's cap, the Gorky, Kolkata class and Scorpenes aren't.

All the while our plans since 2003 were ahead compared to PLAN, but fell short of achieving goals. Had we received Gorky by 2010 and Kolkatas and Scorpenes this year we could have claimed to be ahead of PLAN by a long shot. Now we just have to play catch up.

 

[vishwaprasad]

I don't disagree with J-20. In the last 5 years, China has progressed by leaps and bounds while India has lagged due to delays.

While Arihant and Nerpa are feathers in IN's cap, the Gorky, Kolkata class and Scorpenes aren't.

All the while our plans since 2003 were ahead compared to PLAN, but fell short of achieving goals. Had we received Gorky by 2010 and Kolkatas and Scorpenes this year we could have claimed to be ahead of PLAN by a long shot. Now we just have to play catch up.

Thats true...actually its because of the troll called winton that senior members like KB and J-20 got into arguments with

....I request J-20 and KB to calm down...we both are among the most fearsome navies in the world...we both have our pros and cons.....so lets cheers