Indian Navy Playing Catch-up with China

[Bheeshma]

Pakistan did not give up on German SSK. Germans refused to sell them any submarines. The chinese subs are a last resort for pakistan which would gladly accept second hand german subs if they could get their hands on them..

The F-22p were bought in the hope they would be a decent patrol boats to support 6 second hand OHP frigates if US would give them to PN. That dream went south and Pakis tried to get their hands on Type-23's but Chile grabbed them. Once again PN is forced to look at Type-054 design cause the west will not give them second hand frigates for free and they cannot afford to buy new ones. The F-22p purchase was a deffered loan from china or else even that junk would not have been purchased.

The Chinese frigates are CODAD powered ships and none of them is technically at the same level as Krivak-IV(Talwars) or Shivalik's. Make 4-5 design changes in a decade shows incompetence not design perfection. Maybe China is stupid enough to think people take the ridiculous AEGIS class nonsense they claim about Type-52's seriously. The KDX-III and JMSDF (ATAGO) are the real deal in the region. China has no ability to take on either. They can only try to frighten smaller nation like vietnam, malaysia but would never dare to Sail again JMSDF or USN in that region. China does not have the capability to deploy beyond 100 miles from its coast and hence is pretty much a coastal navy. When was the last time the SSBN's went on a deterrent patrol? The less said about the SSN's the better right.

 

[J20!]

come on mate we all know about the chini quantity and quality theory.just by having a large navy doesn't give you any tactical edge over the IN and remember one thing if a fighting happens between IN and PLAN it will take place in the IOR.in this scenario IN will have an upper edge over PLAN as it has a vast amount of experience in the IOR region!and regarding technology most of IN's tech is either western or russian which is far superior than any the chinese currently have now in their disposal!:cool2:
Weapon systems of the Indian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of active Indian Navy ships - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You're not countering any of the points i've given or even attempting to. You're just saying, "we're superior because I think so". Not a single naval ranking on the net right now puts the IN over the PLAN, there's a reason for that.

Hahaha! We have Russian tech too. Try a better argument. Your biggest surface escort's longest range SAM is the old 32km range Shtil, the IN doesn't have a single dedicated communication's satellite as of yet, and all your major surface vessels still use the old missile launch arm, not a single frigate or destroyer in the IN has a VLS launch system for medium range SAMs, (the PLAN has more than 20), yet you want to tell me the IN is superior? You don't even have a long range SAM in your ENTIRE inventory.

Give me a link to any article written by a naval expert that ranks the IN higher than the PLAN.

 

[mikhail]

You're not countering any of the points i've given or even attempting to. You're just saying, "we're superior because I think so". Not a single naval ranking on the net right now puts the IN over the PLAN, there's a reason for that.

Hahaha! We have Russian tech too. Try a better argument. Your biggest surface escort's longest range SAM is the old 32km range Shtil, the IN doesn't have a single dedicated communication's satellite as of yet, and all your major surface vessels still use the old missile launch arm, not a single frigate or destroyer in the IN has a VLS launch system for medium range SAMs, (the PLAN has more than 20), yet you want to tell me the IN is superior? You don't even have a long range SAM in your ENTIRE inventory.

Give me a link to any article written by a naval expert that ranks the IN higher than the PLAN.

but the difference between India and chin when it comes to using russian weaponry is that our Russian brothers always give us the state of the art equipment and you guys always end up with some second class equipments!and regarding this "so called" superiority of the PLAN over the IN can you point out a single reputed naval expert from a neutral country saying this!and mate we are talking about the IOR region and i don't think your cccp will send its entire PLAN fleet to fight the IN as it will leave you guys toally vunerable to foreign threats(read:-USN and JMSDF)

 

[J20!]

Pakistan did not give up on German SSK. Germans refused to sell them any submarines. The chinese subs are a last resort for pakistan which would gladly accept second hand german subs if they could get their hands on them..

The F-22p were bought in the hope they would be a decent patrol boats to support 6 second hand OHP frigates if US would give them to PN. That dream went south and Pakis tried to get their hands on Type-23's but Chile grabbed them. Once again PN is forced to look at Type-054 design cause the west will not give them second hand frigates for free and they cannot afford to buy new ones. The F-22p purchase was a deffered loan from china or else even that junk would not have been purchased.

The Chinese frigates are CODAD powered ships and none of them is technically at the same level as Krivak-IV(Talwars) or Shivalik's. Make 4-5 design changes in a decade shows incompetence not design perfection. Maybe China is stupid enough to think people take the ridiculous AEGIS class nonsense they claim about Type-52's seriously. The KDX-III and JMSDF (ATAGO) are the real deal in the region. China has no ability to take on either. They can only try to frighten smaller nation like vietnam, malaysia but would never dare to Sail again JMSDF or USN in that region. China does not have the capability to deploy beyond 100 miles from its coast and hence is pretty much a coastal navy. When was the last time the SSBN's went on a deterrent patrol? The less said about the SSN's the better right.

Hahahaha! Now you're just making things up... Give JUST ONE link that says the German's dramatically turned away a multi billion dollar deal for SSK's!! Funniest story I've read in a while.

The Pakistan Navy negotiated for the purchase of 3 Type 214 submarines to be built in Pakistan in 2008. During the IDEAS 2008 exhibition, the HDW chief Walter Freitag told "The commercial contract has been finalised up to 95 per cent," he said. The first submarine would be delivered to the Pakistan Navy in 64 months after signing of the contract while the rest would be completed successively in 12 months.

And what's wrong with CODAD? It is proven to be quieter than COGAG in ASW. Talwars and Shivaliks still use a launch arm for Shtils which reduce engagement angles for SAM's and their ASW weapon's load is nothing but close range torpedoes and ASW rocket launcher, whereas the Type 054A has a 32 cell VLS system capable of launching both 50km range HQ16 SAMs and CY1 ASW missiles. The 054A is better than the Talwar in both air defence and ASW. The shivalik class is more than matched by the similarly armed type 052B, with 24 Shtils and 16 ASM's.

You have no FACTUAL criticisms of the 052C. It has 360 degree AESA coverage backed up with 48 HQ9's which are basically improved S300's. India has no equal for this system right now and we have 3 with three more in various stages of completion vs 2 Kolkata's rotting dockside for how long now?

A long evolutionary design shows a platform's technological maturity. Maybe India should try it and stop taking 7 years to deliver a single surface combatant. Indian shipyards haven't even mastered modular construction yet, with only one vessel so far built in this way. \they're stiil trying to get foreign TOT for the P15B and P17A to be built this way. That's why the poor Kolkata has been rusting in port for 6 years now and was "laid down"(something modern shipyards don't do anymore) 9 years ago. Even with foreign help Indian shipyards haven't been able to deliver a modern AAW destroyer in a a full decade, in that time, Chinese shipyards have delivered 5(2 type 051C's and 3 052C's).

Big talk from someone from a country that cant even develop its own SSK, let alone an SSN. All 4 type 093's all have a new all electric drive systems that's been transferred to the Yuan's and Qing's. Our SSBN's carry 12, 9000km range missiles. Even from dock, a type 094's JL2's could hit anywhere in India, versus 700km range K15's on an SSBN that weighs less than our Type 093 SSN's. The PLAN has 3 active SSBN's versus an IN that hasn't even received its first, whereas the PLAN has been operating them for 2 decades. There have been reports of Chinese nuclear subs deploying much more regularly than in the last decade. No one knows how many patrols Chinese SSBN's have made, unless you have a private yearly report fro the Pentagon we all don't know about.

We have 3 new SSBN's the IN has none in commision.
We have long range area air defence ships, the IN doesnt.
We have 7 AIP subs, the IN has none.
We have two long range naval SAMs in operation, the IN has 0, with the 100km Barak 8 not due for operation in a loooong time.
We have a much larger and better equipped Marine force vs yours tha's fully dependent on an old ex USN ship.
We have more than double the modern escorts you do.
We have more than 5 communication satellites dedicated to the PLAN alone, the IN is yet to get 1.

The title of the Thread is correct, the IN is playing catch up in almost every naval department excluding aircraft carriers.

 

[J20!]

but the difference between India and chin when it comes to using russian weaponry is that our Russian brothers always give us the state of the art equipment and you guys always end up with some second class equipments!and regarding this "so called" superiority of the PLAN over the IN can you point out a single reputed naval expert from a neutral country saying this!and mate we are talking about the IOR region and i don't think your cccp will send its entire PLAN fleet to fight the IN as it will leave you guys toally vunerable to foreign threats(read:-USN and JMSDF)

I'm guessing all that means you cant "Give me a link to any article written by a naval expert that ranks the IN higher than the PLAN." Let me know when you can, I don't need the fanboy talk.

 

[mikhail]

I'm guessing all that means you cant "Give me a link to any article written by a naval expert that ranks the IN higher than the PLAN." Let me know when you can, I don't need the fanboy talk.

can you provide me with a credible link where a western reputed naval expert has rated the PLAN over IN when it comes to a conflict in the IOR region!if you have it then only reply this post because i don't entertain chini fanboys!

 

[J20!]

can you provide me with a credible link where a western reputed naval expert has rated the PLAN over IN when it comes to a conflict in the IOR region!if you have it then only reply this post because i don't entertain chini fanboys!

I love how you always emphasize the IOR because you know toe to toe the IN doesn't have the surface ships, the com satellites, the surveillance satellites, the subs or even the missiles to combat the PLAN:

Don't be lazy, google "world navies ranked" and let me know if you find a single list that places the IN above the PLAN. You've already failed to give me a single one. Let me know when you can.

 

[mikhail]

I love how you always emphasize the IOR because you know toe to toe the IN doesn't have the surface ships, the com satellites, the surveillance satellites, the subs or even the missiles to combat the PLAN:

Don't be lazy, google "world navies ranked" and let me know if you find a single list that places the IN above the PLAN. You've already failed to give me a single one. Let me know when you can.

mate i generally don't believe on those ameteurish world rankings made by some fanboy like you!so the next time you wanna reply my post please provide me with a credible link(which i already know you can't) and regarding the surface to surface missile i think you haven't heard the name of Brahmos which is the only supersonic operational missile which we have

 

[winton]

The F-22p were bought in the hope they would be a decent patrol boats to support 6 second hand OHP frigates if US would give them to PN. That dream went south and Pakis tried to get their hands on Type-23's but Chile grabbed them. Once again PN is forced to look at Type-054 design cause the west will not give them second hand frigates for free and they cannot afford to buy new ones. The F-22p purchase was a deffered loan from china or else even that junk would not have been purchased.

The Chinese frigates are CODAD powered ships and none of them is technically at the same level as Krivak-IV(Talwars) or Shivalik's. Make 4-5 design changes in a decade shows incompetence not design perfection. Maybe China is stupid enough to think people take the ridiculous AEGIS class nonsense they claim about Type-52's seriously. The KDX-III and JMSDF (ATAGO) are the real deal in the region. China has no ability to take on either. They can only try to frighten smaller nation like vietnam, malaysia but would never dare to Sail again JMSDF or USN in that region. China does not have the capability to deploy beyond 100 miles from its coast and hence is pretty much a coastal navy. When was the last time the SSBN's went on a deterrent patrol? The less said about the SSN's the better right.

f22p is a smart ship. It'll do against anything that the IN throws up against it pound for pound. I think both the PN and IN have junk in their arsenal no doubt about that. India has alot of catching up to do and to do it you got to purchase western equipment and fast. that means you got to earn money which is really the bigger issue here.

If a CODAD can give me 30+ knots, give me a CODAD anyday. I don't think it'll be long before the chinese develop their own mass produced gas turbine, but in the mean time india has to buy foreign with money it doesn't have.

most people in the pentagon won't dismiss the chinese aegis as easily as you would, but thats coz indians have been dismissing their enemies too easily far to often. History is replete with this.

IMO china hasn't just got small nations running scared, they have india running equally scared also judging by the fuss that india needs to build up its arms. I would think its a smart thing to do since china will be in Sri lanka and gwadar soon, so long as you have the money and that is where lie the problem.

China has deployed to the somali coast so I think your claim is moot.

It does come down to money which is in short supply in india.

 

[winton]

mate i generally don't believe on those ameteurish world rankings made by some fanboy like you!so the next time you wanna reply my post please provide me with a credible link(which i already know you can't) and regarding the surface to surface missile i think you haven't heard the name of Brahmos which is the only supersonic operational missile which we have

I think what you need to do is add the word "wiki" to your search and you'll see the proper list. It all comes down to budget. India has chosen to not spend as much so its way down the list.

I really question the missiles operational status. India has only just gotten the grasp of rocket technology.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Never mind..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

China is not a blue navy force, But merely a coastal force, Why ?

1. It has no Aircraft carrier in her history, Its a essential part of Blue water force...

2. It have 0 experience conducting a CBG in peace time also in War times..

3. It have no Experience operating Multiple Large task forces thousand miles away from its own coasts during war times..

4. Its operational area is limited to SCS..

5. It have fewer morden resorces to secure vast Chinease coast lines, Most of her vessels are outdated destoryers from late 70 & 80s..

You haven't backed up your coastal claim still or countered any of my arguments...

The PLAN has 16 modern frigates next to the IN's 7 and 3 modern long range AESA equipped AAW destroyers versus the IN's 0, 7 AIP subs versus IN's 0 and 4 modern electric drive SSN's versus the IN's 1, I wont even mention the LPD and Marines department.

We have 3 new SSBN's the IN has none in commision.
We have long range area air defence ships, the IN doesnt.
We have 7 AIP subs, the IN has none.
We have two long range naval SAMs in operation, the IN has 0, with the 100km Barak 8 not due for operation in a loooong time.
We have a much larger and better equipped Marine force vs yours tha's fully dependent on an old ex USN ship.
We have more than double the modern escorts you do.
We have more than 5 communication satellites dedicated to the PLAN alone, the IN is yet to get 1.

Chinese Nuclear Subs rated most noisy among all other Nuclear Subs..
Wont need to comment as too few to count for securing there own vast coastal lines..

 

[Patriot]

China is not a blue navy force, But merely a coastal force, Why ?

1. It has no Aircraft carrier in her history, Its a essential part of Blue water force...

2. It have 0 experience conducting a CBG in peace time also in War times..

3. It have no Experience operating Multiple Large task forces thousand miles away from its own coasts during war times..

4. Its operational area is limited to SCS..

5. It have fewer morden resorces to secure vast Chinease coast lines, Most of her vessels are outdated destoryers from late 70 & 80s..





Chinese Nuclear Subs rated most noisy among all other Nuclear Subs..
Wont need to comment as too few to count for securing there own vast coastal lines..

In addition, no prior Naval War EXPERIENCE

 

[amoy]

China is not a blue navy force, But merely a coastal force, Why ?

1. It has no Aircraft carrier in her history, Its a essential part of Blue water force...

2. It have 0 experience conducting a CBG in peace time also in War times..

3. It have no Experience operating Multiple Large task forces thousand miles away from its own coasts during war times..

4. Its operational area is limited to SCS..

5. It have fewer morden resorces to secure vast Chinease coast lines, Most of her vessels are outdated destoryers from late 70 & 80s..





Chinese Nuclear Subs rated most noisy among all other Nuclear Subs..
Wont need to comment as too few to count for securing there own vast coastal lines..

Mods pls change the subject to China Navy Playing Catch-up with India

 

[Patriot]

Mods pls change the subject to China Navy Playing Catch-up with India

Please get the article re-written by a Chinese journalist in a Chinese Daily before suggesting the change in the Title of the thread.

 

[Defcon 1]

Look man prove your claims. If you continue trolling like this, you will soon get banned.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

edited my post..

 

[Ray]

There was the war with vietnam over the paracel.

I'm guessing india's war experience is with british east india cp ships back in the colonial days? Not even their capital first of the line ships.

You are fascinating.

You have displayed a great knowledge of history.

Now come to present times!

Chinese origin?

China was not good enough for you?

Why is Australia positioning US troops in Australia suddenly after the Chinese Philippines spat?

Do you support that?

 

[Ray]

I think this is where you are wrong. an aircraft carrier does not signify blue water competence. India has proven this. Its carrier has never ventured further than its own coast line even when blockading pakistan.

I don't think china has a blue water navy either but certainly its just as hyped up with india.

The term blue-water navy is a colloquialism used to describe a maritime force capable of operating across the deep waters of open oceans.

While definitions of what actually constitutes such a force vary, there is a requirement for the ability to exercise sea control at wide ranges.
The Defense Security Service of the United States has defined the blue-water navy as, "a maritime force capable of sustained operation across the deep waters of open oceans. A blue-water navy allows a country to project power far from the home country and usually includes one or more aircraft carriers.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Edited..

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