Indian Navy emerging as a major Air Force

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by kseeker, Nov 7, 2013.

  1. kseeker

    kseeker Retired

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    Indian Navy emerging as a major Air Force | defencenews.in

    Wednesday, November 06, 2013

    The Indian Navy is on its way to becoming a major air force, with the fleet air arm having achieved several landmarks this year. In May, the first MiG-29K squadron was commissioned at INS Hansa in Goa, with twenty world-class Russian fighters. In August, the first indigenous aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant was launched at Kochi.

    The Indian Navy is on its way to becoming a major air force, with the fleet air arm having achieved several landmarks this year. In May, the first MiG-29K squadron was commissioned at INS Hansa in Goa, with twenty world-class Russian fighters. In August, the first indigenous aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant was launched at Kochi. Later this month, Russia will hand over the INS Vikramaditya, formerly the Admiral Gorshkov, which will supplement the INS Viraat to become the navy’s second aircraft carrier.

    Today the navy received its first Hawk-132 Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT), on which it will train the pilots that fly its MiG-29Ks and, when cleared to join the fleet, the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is building 17 Hawk AJTs for the navy.

    The navy is on track to operate more than 300 fixed wing and rotary wing aircraft. These including 45 MiG-29K/KUBs; over 50 Tejas LCAs; 8-12 Boeing P8 multi-mission aircraft; 36 Dornier 228 utility aircraft; 36 medium range maritime reconnaissance (MRMR) aircraft; 5-10 long range maritime reconnaissance (LRMR) aircraft; 90 medium helicopters; 59 naval utility helicopters; and more than 30 airborne early warning helicopters.

    The Indian Air Force (IAF) currently gives naval pilots basic training on the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II, along with air force trainee pilots. After that, naval flyers branch off, doing Stage-2 training on the Kiran Mark I; and will now do Stage-3 training on the navy’s own Hawk fleet. Far-sighted naval planners say the day will come when the navy, emerging as a major operator of aircraft, will train all its pilots in-house.

    “The induction of this highly capable (Hawk-132) aircraft will provide the much needed fillip to the training of combat pilots in the Navy by bridging the gap between basic flying training and advanced fighter flying,” said the navy today.

    While Stage-1 and Stage-2 training mainly hone a pilot’s flying skills, Stage-3 training on the Hawk involves combat flying, which includes advanced navigation and the use of airborne weapons.

    The Hawk 132 has an advanced navigation system and can carry air-to-air missiles, air-to-ground rockets, bombs and guns. The trainee pilot learns how to use a HOTAS (Hands on Throttle and Stick) system that allows him to select weapons without removing his hands from the flying controls.

    Capable of carrying two extra fuel tanks under its wings to extend its operating range, the Hawk can even be used in a combat role as a light strike aircraft.

    HAL will deliver five Hawks to the navy this fiscal year, with the remaining 12 delivered over three years. While naval pilots train on these 17 AJTs, the IAF will fly 106 Hawk AJTs, making India the largest operator of Hawks in the world. Currently 18 countries operate almost 1000 Hawk trainers. The US Air Force could soon buy several hundred more under its so-called T-X trainer acquisition programme.

    Meanwhile, BAE Systems, which is the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) of the Hawk, has bid to supply 20 more Hawks for the IAF’s aerobatics team, Surya Kiran. This contract, which should have been a simple “follow on” procurement from the large earlier tenders, has been delayed by the ministry of defence (MoD) which argues that the smoke generators that are fitted on aerobatics aircraft (actually this is merely an external attachment) make these a different aircraft that must go through the whole evaluation procedure afresh. In the case of the Hawk-132, that process took 18 years.

    BAE Systems is putting a brave face on this, with a company release today quoting Guy Griffiths, Group Managing Director --- International as saying, "We have also submitted our response to HAL's Request for Proposal for a potential order to supply products and services for the manufacture of 20 additional Hawk aircraft to the IAF, and are now looking forward to partnering with HAL in providing the Indian Air Force's display team this fantastic aircraft."

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    शं नो वरुणः :namaste:

    Way to go IN :thumb: We are proud of you guys :india:
     
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  3. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    IN will eventually have a fleet of 500 ac with induction of third ac carrier and four LHDs. The fighters will number about 180 including Hawks.
     
  4. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    500 Aircrafts including Choppers etc ?
    How many Hawks out of those 180 fighters ?

    And Tu-142 will continue to serve ?
     
  5. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    IN needs one sqn of fighters with 24 ac for Vikky and two sqn for IAC-1. Which will probably have one sqn of Mig-29Ks and one sqn of LCA Mk-2. The third ac acrrier IAC-2 will need two full sqns of 48 ac. this makes it five sqns of fighters 24x5=120. in addition IN will have one additional sqn of fighters for shore based ops and one sqn in INAS-552 for training purposes plus hawks about 18 ac and later Pilatus to start its own training academy like AFA, dundigal.
    IN needs a very large fleet of Helos. with the induction of more ships and LHDs, IN will need helos not just for ASW/ASM role but also for troop carrying and CAS roles.
     
  6. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    Doesn't it make sense to go for F-35s for the new ACs ?

    F-35Bs for new ACs.

    Naval Tejas if it ends up being developed can be used on Gorshkov alongside Mig29Ks.
     
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  7. kseeker

    kseeker Retired

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    Why F-35s ? Aren't they expensive than Russian jets ?
     
  8. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    F-35s are a generation+ ahead of Mig 29k and n-tejas.

    Iaf is already ordering Rafale (fingers crossed) and NGFA.

    Ex-Adm of IN had already expressed interest in F-35s


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  9. kseeker

    kseeker Retired

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    Why not Su-35 ?

    Su-35 is better than F-35 !

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    Su-35 naval variant doesn't exist.
    F-35 is a 5th gen fighter and has SVTOL capabilities.


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  11. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    Who wud not like to have the best ac in its fleet? But we have to weigh the options w.r.t threat perceptions and budget constraints.
    N-LCA + Mig-29K will be able to operate from Vikky and IAC-1 without any problems.
     
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  12. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    But it makes sense to go for F-35s for iac 2 and 3.

    We also need to rig one of our fighters like ef-18.
    @p2prada can maybe chime in here


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  13. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    Being an ex IN officer, I am for home grown stuff. Maybe AMCA will be a better option as by the time IAC-2 comes around, we wud have learnt a lot from N-LCA.
     
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  14. maitechseo

    maitechseo New Member

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    India getting ready to overtake western nations check datc.in
     
  15. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    AMCA is not happening afaik.

    If we go for F-35 now, will we get deliveries around the time IAC-2 is operational
     
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  16. rugved

    rugved Regular Member

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    For that the American government needs to give a clearance on the sale of F-35Bs. I don't think that is possible till Obama is the president. :p
     
  17. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    I am a huge supporter of a F-35 induction for the navy. Preferably F-35C. A new tender is very, very likely. Perhaps it will be released after the IAF MRCA tender is a done deal. There is still quite some time for the navy to decide, since IAC-2 won't be ready for a decade after construction starts. Their deal will be significantly smaller, so the industrial and ToT requirements will be lesser which will make the F-35 a contender.

    Deliveries will happen only after the F-35 has achieved FOC and production is stabilized, ie, post-2021, which will make it a decent competitor to the Rafale in terms of price. F-35 will have a much lower lifecycle cost compared to Rafale while being significantly more advanced. Current studies reveal that the "preliminary" F-35A costs only 10% more than the F-16C in CPFH(cost per flying hour). Rafale-C costs twice as much compared to the F-16. So you can expect the F-35 to be at the top of the technical rankings while costing lesser (I am opening a can of worms here, but I trust USAF and LM disclosures). While F-35B and C are more expensive than F-35A, Rafale-M is also more expensive than Rafale-C.

    A homegrown 5th gen equivalent version is not possible for the timeline during which Vishal will be inducted. AMCA will not be ready before 2030 for IOC, so it won't be part of any immediate naval plan. 16 years was announced by ADA to be the minimum time period from drawing board to IOC for a new aircraft. So the date is pretty much similar to the official one. To date, IN has not shown any interest in AMCA.

    You know me, I bet on the Rafale back in 2007 on IDF. This time my bets are on the F-35 for N-MRCA. N-MRCA tender is very likely because there have been official noises from MoD sources about a second MRCA tender. MoD will treat any navy fighter requirement as an independent requirement and will ask the navy to hold their own tender. So, this will be independent of the air force deal for Rafales. Meaning, even if IN wants Rafales, MoD will have the navy go through a tendering process and not simply ask for extra aircraft through IAF's MRCA since the MRCA was for an entirely different version (Rafale-B/C) compared to the navy's (Rafale-M). So they can't simply piggyback on the IAF. IN's RFI for MRCA was last sent in 2009.

    We will be lucky if IAF gets a Growler equivalent version flying this decade. MKIs have been tested with a new high power standoff jammer from Knirti called SAP-14<<<link. It is actually supposed to be better than ALQ-99E in many standards. We can't induct hundreds like the US can which makes any such endeavor very, very expensive and not realistic. At best, IAF will have to work at getting some modest capabilities on MKI as compared to the Growler and aim for getting Growler like capabilities on larger aircraft like Gulfstream G500/G550.

    Of course, any IAF success can be used by IN. But for a carrier capable EW aircraft, IN will need an aircraft that can carry that type of hardware. IN has no plans for a Flanker. US won't allow modifications to the F-35 while Dassault won't allow such modifications for Rafale. So it has to be a larger aircraft that can be thrown off a carrier. All I can think of is a C-2/E-2 or a V-22 Osprey or any equivalent Russian carrier design that they may build in the future and modify it with whatever DRDO designed for the IAF's larger EW aircraft. This project has to be homegrown.
     
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  18. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

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    me Too loves to see the F 35 in our Navy

    Once I heard Somewhere here in DFI ..someone said The IAC 2 construction was started So that No way of EMALS on board So it Should be a STOBAR
    maybe the IAC 3 comes with EMALS at 2030+ .

    accompany with 0ne Squad of Mig 29k and LCA MK 2 along with the F 35 should be a Game Changer in any Ranger and The Range of the F 35 is quite bigger than other fighters and the Powerful AESA and Jammer along with the Heavy weapon Load should kick any of the Surface Ships if It's sees ..AS p2prada said we may get the delivery of one or two sqaud of F 35 at the time scale of 2022+ .at that time the IAC 2 completes all sea trails and ready for Battle

    E A 18 Growler , E 2C Hawk eye and the Naval FGFA or the Rafale M should be Present in the IAC 3 must be a EMAL system ..I don't think so the STOBAR can able to launch the NFGFA and the Rafale M because of it's Heavy weight
     
  19. ladder

    ladder Senior Member Senior Member

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    I too heard the same thing ( not at DFI). What I heard was that the construction of second ship of Vikrant class has started.And probably she shall be named VIRAAT after the current ship ( INS Viraat) retires some where around 2020.

    IAC2 shall come latter.
     
  20. Sridhar

    Sridhar House keeper Moderator

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  21. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

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    I don't think The IAC 2 becomes the Flat top deck with CATOBAR or EMALS ..we may go for the Flat top by 2030 ..

    Once the IAC comes to the water again with fully constructed . the next one Goes into the House to Build. One more does we have proper shipyard to construct a flat top carrier weighing around 50000+ Tons .may the the Infrastructure ready by 2025 or later ..until then or we going wait for the Time frame ..No chance

    @Decklander Sir

    is any SSBN being construed in Kolkata named INS Aryamane
     
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