Indian Mig 21 BISON v/s PAF JF 17 , who has an edge.

sayareakd

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sir age is having its effect over you!
well as layman for plane i read so many times from Pakistani that plane or aircraft with BVR and aesa can take down any fighter that is why the question. Yeah i am growing old.
 

agentperry

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well as layman for plane i read so many times from Pakistani that plane or aircraft with BVR and aesa can take down any fighter that is why the question. Yeah i am growing old.
well bvr and aesa gives an aircraft what a sniper rifle gives to a soldier. far off, if aesa is long range and missile is of latest tech then enemy with average protection suite wont stand a chance. in close range its again wvr and combat skills of pilot and not to forget plane's dynamics.
 

ace009

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But it takes a $100Million aircraft to find a target.

No aircraft will present itself to be shot. The JF-17 cannot be compared at all to the big ones out there. However it will be better than the Mig-21 in a lot of respects.
When you have ground based interception and over the horizon radars (L, S and X band radars) looking up into the sky, detection might be achieved in other ways.
Use of AWACS in an airspace will also enable you to identify enemy aircraft - one AWACS can feed a hundred of your fighters. So, You do not need a $100 million aircraft to fight another.
Just like
 

p2prada

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When you have ground based interception and over the horizon radars (L, S and X band radars) looking up into the sky, detection might be achieved in other ways.
Use of AWACS in an airspace will also enable you to identify enemy aircraft - one AWACS can feed a hundred of your fighters. So, You do not need a $100 million aircraft to fight another.
Just like
Not as simple. Ground based radars, maybe, but a link between the aircraft and radar can be jammed. NCW is very fickle.

Personally I doubt any of their AWACS will survive in the first place. They don't have any dedicated air superiority aircraft like a Flanker.

But yeah! Technically you are right. An AWACS or even GCI will help the JF better than going it alone.
 

fulcrum

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Interception:
Mig-21Bis(Bison now) was built for interception. If both Bison and the Junk Fighter were loaded with similar amount of fuel and weapons, say 3505kgs, and asked to take-off to intercept incoming bogies, Mig-21Bison will leave Blunder in the dust. The TWR of both the planes under those loaded conditions, and both Tumansky and RD-93 employing emergency thrust is 1.11 and 0.86 respectively. The Mig can accelerate and climb faster than Blunder. If the attack is a large scale one on an airfield, apart from the couple of JF-17s on stand-by, subsequent JF-17s deployed to meet the threat will most likely be caught on the runway or huffing and puffing to gain altitude. Now that's what is called a sitting duck

Also already airborne if the task is to intercept an enemy bombing vital installations, the Mig has more chance of reaching it's target with it's 2.1 Mach speed compared to 1.6 for JF-17.

In interception Bison is the clear winner.

BVR Combat:
As of now JF-17 still is not yet a BVR fighter. So Mig wins this one as well. What about the future? Chinese BVR over R-77, I'd take R-77 any day. And so would any sensible pilot, unless the chinese can bring about a miracle and make their brand new AAM as good as R-77, I'd like to think otherwise. As for the radar, some Bisons are equipped with Kopyo-M and some with Kopyo-21i.

Kopyo-21i
Can Track- 8 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 2 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 57 km


Kopyo-M
Can Track- 10 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 2 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 80 km

KLJ-7
Can Track- 10 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 2 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 105 km

I really really would like to believe that the 105km figure is accurate, but given the chinese ego and not to mention the lack of transparency, some part of me is still in doubt.

What about western radar and weapons? Lets analyse on that if that dream of theirs becomes reality.

Now throw in Israeli jamming pods on the migs, and not so state-of-the-art chinese pods on their Blunder, RCS of the smaller Mig and the bigger JF-17(RCS for JF-17 is not known, all that is known is that it is bigger and heavier than the Mig, and Mig's UNOFFICIAL RCS is said to be 3m2), into the mix... the conclusion is hard to get. Lets just say they have a 50-50 chance for conclusion sake.

WVR Combat:
Mig-21Bis(or Bison now), is notorious for having a poor low speed handling. The earlier 21's were decent in this department, however Bis was made to be more in tune with a 3rd generation fighter, which means focusing more on missiles and speed, rather than dogfighting capabilities.So Jf-17 wins in this department. However as with all 3rd Gen fighters, Mig-21 can simply wish whether it wants to enter the WVR envelop or not, given its higher TWR/acceleration and speed it can leave JF-17 to eat it's exhaust fumes. So most probably the chances of a -21 entering turn-dogfight is remote at best. But if it does and is forced to enter into a turn fight, Bison won't stand a chance, if assuming even the JF-17 has helmet mounted targeting like the Mig.


That's it! Given the fact the Mig-21 is decades old, costs around $2mil back in the early 80's(4-5mil adjusted to 2011 inflation) and even lower if mass produced under license, and we bought it under most generous conditions(we paid the Soviets in Tea!, Coffee!, and Indian rupees, as opposed to foreign reserves), this plane served this country well, as opposed to Junk Fighter - 17 paid by the pakis at an interest of 7-8% with precious foreign reserves no less costing anywhere between $15 to $25 mil a piece.
 
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p2prada

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The JF will be better in terms of air interdiction and close air support as well. Perhaps even Deep penetration strike because the Mirage-IIIs are very old now. All 3 require low altitude and low speed handling as compared to interception or air dominance roles.
 

Eiffe

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hmmm Mig 21 is at the extreme end of its life. I would say Jf 17 will have advantage over it.
 

JBH22

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by saying that Mig-21 is better than JF-17 are we deluding ourselves that the IAF backbone is mainly made of vintage planes?
The Mig-21 served well its already a burden for throwing young pilot lives away hopefully the usual incompetence of our decision makers don't delay the MMRCA selection given that Tejas is for induction in 2014 in world where others are inducting 5th gen and are planning with 6th gen UCAV we are still stucked with these relics.
 

fulcrum

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I really really would like to believe that the 105km figure is accurate, but given the chinese ego and not to mention the lack of transparency, some part of me is still in doubt.
I knew there was something fishy. My hunch wasn't wrong afterall! Janes reports that KLJ-7's range is 75km for 3m2 target. http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/8879/klj7st5.jpg . Invoking the Radar-Range-RCS equation the calculated range for 5m2 target is 85km. Only a 5 km advantage over the MiG-21 Bison Kopyo-M radar. After the Rafale acquisition, RC-400 and other french avionics on their JF-17 is effectively ruled out. lol I really feel sorry for the pakistanis now. Their new frontline fighter is only as good as our MiG-21 Bisons. Now add the israeli jammers on the Bisons, then the MiG-21 will have the clear edge in BVR.
 
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fulcrum

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Point to note that, the KLJ-7, if closed-to-scrutiny Chinese defence establishment CETC had to be believed, has the same range as the APG-68(V)9 on F-16block52 & RDY-2 on Mirage-2000-5/-9, & less range than RC-400 radar. Even in its most powerful form(meaning the version with the largest antennae, which the JF-17 cannot house due to its relatively small nose), the RC400 has 20% less range than the RDY radar. RC-400 is the radar which the PAF are planning to equip their second block of JF-17 according to reports. The APG-68(V)9 has a bigger antenna(bigger radar-dish/bigger antenna gives more range) than the KLJ-7, plus it is manufactured by Northrop Grumman, a more mature and advanced Military-Industrial complex than CETC by a large margin. So the claim that the KLJ-7 has the same range as APG-68(V)9 seems more unlikely. Also is the fact that the PAF preferred a far lesser ranged RC-400 over the KLJ-7 radar.
 
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SPIEZ

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We are talking about the largest produced and the longest serving fighter aircraft and the aircraft which is not going to be the main stay of the Air force of the country in which it was developed.
That should give a clear view as to which one is better.
 

pankaj nema

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And how much thrust can a single engine RD 93 generate

Mig 21 is a small sized but Mach 2 interceptor having HMS and R 77 BVRAAM

It might be recalled that in India US Cope 2004 and 2005 exercise MIg
caused a lot of trouble to F 16 s

USAF was highly impressed by the Mig 21 bison; it was called as being nearly invisible by US pilots
 

fulcrum

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^ F-15's bro. It caused a lot of trouble for the F-15C.

and the aircraft which is not going to be the main stay of the Air force of the country in which it was developed.
Yea. Also as long as China doesn't induct it in it's own force, JF-17 will be looked with suspicion by potential buyers. But who knows, the chinese with their track record of giving generous kickbacks to their customers(ZDK-03 - Musharaff - PAF Air Chief Saga), JF-17 may get one or 2 buyers from Africa.
 

Blackwater

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Mig 21 is proven machine where as Jf-17 still have to prove its metal. Interesting to know pak is not using JF-17 in FATA,north and south waziristan..

JF-17 is just a hype
 

laughingbuddha

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By the time they have the JF-17 properly configured, we'd have phased out our Bisons..so no contest. They'll have to contend with the Rafale.
 

Bheeshma

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JF-17 is garbage that only desperate nations would look at. But US would shut off that avenue with used F-16's,. Maybe African nations for ceremonial parades.
 

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