Indian Jaguar Upgrade stalled ?

[Kunal Biswas]

Mig27 & Jags should be replaced by dedicated A2G fleet, using MRCAs for that sounds overkill; also note that MRCAs wont be in surplus numbers anytime soon.

There is also scope to strategically involve Army in decision making or appreciate Army's air wing.

MRCA overkill ? MRCA are meant to replace lot other fighters, 126 is the initial number..

Army Air-wing consist of Attack helos, Not combat jets..

 

[nrj]

MRCA overkill ? MRCA are meant to replace lot other fighters, 126 is the initial number..

I am sure that MRCAs can perform CAS duties in peacetime. However, won't it be underreckoning of MRCA capabilities to use it delicately for CAS role during hour of need ?

Army Air-wing consist of Attack helos, Not combat jets..

Cant IA have its own fixed wing aircraft ?

http://defenceforumindia.com/indian-army/1332-should-army-have-own-air-wing-6.html

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I am sure that MRCAs can perform CAS duties in peacetime. However, won't it be underreckoning of MRCA capabilities to use it delicately for CAS role during hour of need ?

Cant IA have its own fixed wing aircraft ?

http://defenceforumindia.com/indian-army/1332-should-army-have-own-air-wing-6.html

Its a multi role, you can use it anyway you like, If CAS occurred, It will do CAS with same type of aircraft will be doing Air-Supremacy role above the CAS wing, It better to have a single Aircraft than many other for different roles, The Aircraft doing CAS can switch from CAS to dogfight if challenged also..

Yes, I am highly pro Army fixed wing program, But that CAS is in limited number with with fixed objective is to provide only CAS not sead or air-supremacy, It is meant to operate under the Umbrella of Air defense provided by IAF, Now what is the reason of the origin of this idea and what advantages IA will have is another issue..

 

[Ray]

Could someone explain how any aircraft can achieve 'air supremacy' or any air force can achieve 'air supremacy' in the sub continental and India Chinese context?

The last was in East Pakistan in 1971.

As I see it, these nomenclature are marketing terms and nothing more!

Maybe I am wrong.

 

[Ray]

Singh,

I have done a GLO cadre with live aircraft long back.

The biggest problem we faced was guiding the aircraft to the target.

They were so fast that before we could explain the target and FLOT when the aircraft was over the Contact Point and on to the target, they were gone!

However, in the modern context we have Laser guidance and we can 'light up' the target!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Could someone explain how any aircraft can achieve 'air supremacy' or any air force can achieve 'air supremacy' in the sub continental and India Chinese context?

Sir, By mean of Word 'air supremacy' is the Air-cover provided by Aircraft, for those Aircraft down below providing CAS or other task..

'air supremacy' is simply terminology for that role..

 

[Armand2REP]

I see no advantage now to upgrade JAGs and MIG-27, MRCA will replace them soon within next 10 years..

It won't have a problem carrying out CAS, but the real issue is squadron numbers. If IAF lets these bombers go into early retirement they are losing 200 aircraft. That isn't mentioning losing another 200 MiGs. MRCA will provide enough capability to replace all that in effectiveness, but India is pretty stuck on numbers.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It won't have a problem carrying out CAS, but the real issue is squadron numbers. If IAF lets these bombers go into early retirement they are losing 200 aircraft. That isn't mentioning losing another 200 MiGs. MRCA will provide enough capability to replace all that in effectiveness, but India is pretty stuck on numbers.

Their is no early retirement but as long as it can go, After that its IAF decision, The newest Jags are procured in 2002..

 

[Armand2REP]

Their is no early retirement but as long as it can go, After that its IAF decision, The newest Jags are procured in 2002..

37 are from 1999-2002... the rest are from 1980s. The fleet as a whole is ready for retirement if it doesn't get a refit.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

37 are from 1999-2002... the rest are from 1980s. The fleet as a whole is ready for retirement if it doesn't get a refit.

The rest of the fleet was upgraded in mid and late 90s, Including the air frame, Avionics etc..

This Upgrade is only for Newer Engines Only in older Air-frames..

 

[Patriot]

MiG-29s, Jaguars and Mirages Upgrades within This Decade

The three aircraft upgrades will be completed only by 2016, 2017 and 2021 respectively, sources told defencenow.com.

India had in July 2011 signed a $2.4-billion contract with French firms Thales and Dassault for the upgrade of 51 Mirage-2000 from three Indian Air Force (IAF) squadrons and another contract has been signed with Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for another $500 million for setting up an upgrade line at its facilities. Of the $2.4 billion to the two French firms, $1.9 billion alone will go to Thales alone.

Among the upgrades planned for Mirage-2000, inducted in to the IAF between 1982 and 1986, are a night vision goggle-compatible glass cockpit, advanced navigational systems, advanced Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system, advanced multi-mode multi-layered radar, fully integrated electronic warfare suite and advanced beyond visual range (BVR) capability. The new weapons include 450 MICA interception and aerial combat missiles, for which a contract is awaited with another French firm MBDA.......
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In the case of the Jaguars, India is already in the process of upgrading its 100-odd planes in the IAF fleet under a 2008 contract signed with HAL for upgrading the deep penetration planes with modern avionics Display Attack Ranging Inertial Navigation (DARIN-3) by replacing the initial version of the system called DARIN-1. It is looking to sign a deal with the US for re-engining of Jaguar fleet whereby Jaguars will get Honeywell's F125IN 43.8 kilo Newton (KN) thrust turbofan engine.

The cost of upgrade of Jaguar, inducted first in 1979, is Rs.3,113.02 crore (about $700 million) and the aircraft is expected to be upgraded by December 2017.

With regard to the 60-odd MiG-29 that IAF has in its three squadrons, the planes are going through the process of upgrade already in Russia with RAC-MiG. The cost of this upgrade works out to $964 million and it is expected to be completed by 2016......

 

[Yawn]

AFAIK, Jags are good enough even now..

MRCA will replace most by 2020 with logistic online, But how come the initial operating cost going to be higher when the spares are available via HAL..

Its operational cost is higher than MIG-21/27..

Kunal, the question is how many MMRCAs will be online by 2020. If we assume that there are no delays (a bit rich given our way of doing things), the first aircraft will enter service in 2015-it will take time to ramp up squadrons and logistics units to full readiness.

I mentioned the initial costs given the time need to build up a logistics train. All aircraft typically start with higher operational costs and lower readiness rates as a support infrastructure is being built.