Indian Government Ready to talk on Demilitarization of Siachen ?

[blank_quest]

India's interest compromised in Siachen

At a recent meeting in Lahore, Pakistan, a group of retired senior officials, military officers and diplomats have reached a consensus on a number of Confidence-Building Measures (CBMs). More specifically, they have agreed on a proposal regarding the demilitarisation of the Siachen area, which has been a potential flashpoint between the two countries for many years. The participants in the process adopted by consensus a general report on their work and the specific proposal on the Siachen issue.

India is committing a strategic blunder by quietly agreeing to Pakistan's demand for withdrawing from Saltoro Ridge in Siachen glacier. The Indian public and Parliament have been kept in the dark. A backroom deal has been concluded through questionable intermediaries with close ties to Pakistan.

:shocked:
India's interest compromised in Siachen | Niti Central

 

[Yusuf]

Re: India's interest compromised in Siachen

BS. It will not be allowed.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Re: India's interest compromised in Siachen

This article from 5 months ago.

..:: India Strategic ::. Army: Demilitarisation of Siachen

Last fortnight when Gen Kayani, the Pakistan Army chief made the statement that Pakistan was ready for demilitarisation of Siachen, peaceniks from both sides enthusiastically took up the refrain, looking at it as an opportunity to settle a major bone of contention, reduce tension and improve relations between the two countries. Shortly after, Gen Kayani again talked about resolving the Siachen issue and blamed India for hardening its stand.

 

[Ankit Purohit]

Re: India's interest compromised in Siachen

 

[Tolaha]

Re: India's interest compromised in Siachen

Agree with Yusuf's remark. It has to be BS!

I think articles like these are posted by "concerned parties" just to highlight to the decision making political setup as to the number of body bags they will be held responsible to, if the army is withdrawn from Siachen.

 

[Virendra]

Re: India's interest compromised in Siachen

The Army itself doesn't agree to withdrawing. Army cannot fight the war if we ask them to stand naked.
Because they know that for Siachen and in the bigger picture Kashmir itself, bucks stops at them.
Pulling down from there, will only come back to bite them. Foolish.

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

Re: India's interest compromised in Siachen

Hey hey hey, HISTORY repeats it self and again pakistan attacks INDIA and INDIA get the siachen glacier........

 

[datguy79]

Re: India's interest compromised in Siachen

What is the advantage of having several thousand troops on Siachen as opposed to a few troops coupled with an air blockade?

 

[mayfair]

Re: India's interest compromised in Siachen

What is the advantage of having several thousand troops on Siachen as opposed to a few troops coupled with an air blockade?

There are no "several thousand troops" in Siachen.

Air blockade?

Are you familiar with the topography of the area?

 

[afako]

These discussions are undertaken as part of a project on conventional confidence-building, which is jointly organized by the University of Ottawa and the South Asia Centre at the Atlantic Council. The project is supported by the Near East and South Asia Centre for Strategic Studies at the National Defence University and the United States Institute of Peace, with additional support from Stanford University. The participants in this process have decided to continue their work on these matters, and have accordingly asked the organizers to prepare a new round of meetings.

India-Pakistan Experts Agree on Confidence-building Measures at Lahore Meeting | Atlantic Council

India's interest compromised in Siachen | Niti Central

 

[nrj]

At a recent meeting in Lahore, Pakistan, a group of retired senior officials, military officers and diplomats have reached a consensus on a number of Confidence-Building Measures (CBMs). More specifically, they have agreed on a proposal regarding the demilitarisation of the Siachen area

So Pakistan is ready for demilitarization ?

 

[afako]

So Pakistan is ready for demilitarization ?

Indian Army is the only one present on Siachen.

Any withdrawal will be by Indian Army only.

Napaks are getting a Free Lunch. They do not have to do anything, neither have to loose anything.

Only Congress will do everything, India will Loose everything!

 

[nrj]

This is not official position of Government of India.

Some retired arses farting, thats it.

General Jehangir Karamat (Pakistan Army Retd)
Air Chief Marshal Shashi Tyagi (Indian Air Force Retd)
Lieutenant General Sikander Afzal (Pakistan Army, Retd)
Rana Banerji (former Special Secretary, Cabinet Secretariat, India)
Air Vice Marshal Shahzad Chaudhry (Pakistan Air Force, Retd)
Lieutenant General (Retd) Tariq Ghazi (former Defense Secretary of Pakistan)
Ambassador Maleeha Lodhi (Pakistan Foreign Service, Retd)
Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal (Indian Army, Retd)8
Ambassador Vivek Katju (Indian Foreign Service, Retd)
Ambassador Aziz Khan (Pakistan Foreign Service, Retd)
Admiral Tariq Khan (Pakistan Navy, Retd)
Ambassador Riaz Khan (former Foreign Secretary of Pakistan)
General Tariq Majid (Pakistan Army, Retd)
Ambassador Lalit Mansingh (former Foreign Secretary of India)
Lieutenant General BS Pawar (Indian Army, Retd)
Major General Qasim Qureshi (Pakistan Army, Retd)
Brigadier Arun Sahgal (Indian Army, Retd)
Ajai Shukla (Journalist)
Vice Admiral A.K. Singh (Indian Navy, Retd)
Lieutenant General Aditya Singh (Indian Army, Retd)
Lieutenant General Arvinder Singh Lamba (Indian Army, Retd)

 

[afako]

That Airforce guy is part of a Committie selected by GOI.

Everything is happening, only not to be reported by media.

 

[nrj]

Give credible source.

Title of the thread is also misleading.

 

[hit&run]

I wouldn't be surprised at all. GoI has the mandate of people of India to do it, GoI has made decisions post 65,71 wars and other strategic decisions/deals with Pakistan regardless of what we may be thinking or debating about them afterwards.

I wish there should be provision of referendum when making decisions on such issues.

 

[mayfair]

Give credible source.

Title of the thread is also misleading.

Misleading eh??

India-Pakistan Experts Agree on Confidence-building Measures at Lahore Meeting

OTTAWA, October 2, 2012 - At a recent meeting in Lahore, Pakistan, a group of retired senior officials, military officers and diplomats have reached a consensus on a number of Confidence-Building Measures (CBMs). More specifically, they have agreed on a proposal regarding the demilitarisation of the Siachen area, which has been a potential flashpoint between the two countries for many years. The participants in the process adopted by consensus a general report on their work and the specific proposal on the Siachen issue.

These discussions are undertaken as part of a project on conventional confidence-building, which is jointly organized by the University of Ottawa and the South Asia Centre at the Atlantic Council. The project is supported by the Near East and South Asia Centre for Strategic Studies at the National Defence University and the United States Institute of Peace, with additional support from Stanford University.

The participants in this process have decided to continue their work on these matters, and have accordingly asked the organizers to prepare a new round of meetings.

For further information on this process, please contact the two co-chairs of the discussions:
General Jehangir Karamat (Pakistan Army, retired) [email protected] or Air Chief Marshal Shashi Tyagi (Indian Air Force, retired) [email protected].

List of delegates from both the sides:

India

Air Chief Marshal Shashi Tyagi (Indian Air Force Retd), CHAIR
Lieutenant General BS Pawar (Indian Army, Retd)
Vice Admiral A.K. Singh (Indian Navy, Retd)
Lieutenant General Aditya Singh (Indian Army, Retd)
Lieutenant General Arvinder Singh Lamba (Indian Army, Retd)
Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal (Indian Army, Retd)
Brigadier Arun Sahgal (Indian Army, Retd)
Col Ajai Shukla (Journalist)
Rana Banerji (former Special Secretary, Cabinet Secretariat, India)
Ambassador Vivek Katju (Indian Foreign Service, Retd)
Ambassador Lalit Mansingh (former Foreign Secretary of India)


Pakistan

General Jehangir Karamat (Pakistan Army Retd), CHAIR
Admiral Tariq Khan (Pakistan Navy, Retd)
General Tariq Majid (Pakistan Army, Retd)
Lieutenant General Sikander Afzal (Pakistan Army, Retd)
Lieutenant General (Retd) Tariq Ghazi (former Defense Secretary of Pakistan)
Major General Qasim Qureshi (Pakistan Army, Retd)
Air Vice Marshal Shahzad Chaudhry (Pakistan Air Force, Retd)
Ambassador Maleeha Lodhi (Pakistan Foreign Service, Retd)
Ambassador Aziz Khan (Pakistan Foreign Service, Retd)
Ambassador Riaz Khan (former Foreign Secretary of Pakistan)

The Siachen Proposal

http://www.acus.org/files/Siachen Proposal - Lahore September 2012.pdf

India-Pakistan CBMs Project

Siachen Proposal

There was further discussion on the proposal for the demilitarisation of the region and for stringent and cooperative monitoring and verification of this.

After considerable discussion a suggestion achieved consensus which seeks to have these activities occur as part of an overall package. Recognising that both countries have a divergence of views, it was felt that such an approach is more likely to create forward movement.

Accordingly, as a part of the comprehensive resolution of the Siachen dispute, and notwithstanding the claims of each country, both sides should agree to withdraw from the conflict area while retaining the option of punitive action should the other side renege on the commitments. The following clear package of integrated and inter-linked stipulations were laid down for the demilitarisation of the area and delineation of the line:

-Set up a joint commission to delineate the line beyond NJ 9842, consistent with existing Agreements;

-The present ground positions would be jointly recorded and the records exchanged;

-The determination of the places to which redeployment will be affected would be jointly agreed;

-Disengagement and demilitarization would occur in accordance with a mutually acceptable time frame to be agreed (see Annex 1);

-Prior to withdrawal, each side will undertake to remove munitions and other military equipment and waste from areas of its control; and

-Ongoing cooperative monitoring of these activities and the resulting demilitarized zone would be agreed to ensure/assure transparency (see Annex 2).

In keeping with the Simla Agreement and the Lahore Declaration both sides should undertake that resolution of this issue is a bilateral matter and that there will be no change in the status of the area and also that no personnel of any third country will be permitted
within it unless cleared by the two countries jointly.

Annex 1

Suggested Time Frame for Demilitarisation

Schedule for Demilitarisation

Operational principles:

"¢ Establish a Joint Working Group to recommend detailed re-deployment and oversee implementation of the process.
"¢ Variability in process is likely due to frequently changing weather conditions.

Weather forces disengagement to be conducted during the summer season (May –
September)

Determination of the place (s) to which redeployment will be effected and the time frame to be recommended by the Joint Working Group.

Mechanism for joint management of the demilitarized zone to be recommended by the Joint Working Group.

Possible Phases of Demilitarisation (with appropriate waste and munitions removal at each phase)

Phase 1: Withdraw medium artillery located near Base Camps (e.g., Dzingrulma, Gyari)

Phase 2: Withdraw troops and field artillery from Northern, Central, and Southern battalion sub-sectors
"¢ Forward posts, including crew-served weapons posts
"¢ Declare staging camps where troops from forward positions will transit through in the process of re-deployment
"¢ Dismantle camps after withdrawal

Phase 3: Withdraw from forward logistics camps on or near the Glacier
Phase 4: Dismantle remaining logistics camps
Phase 5: Withdraw from base camps
Phase 6: Dismantle or convert base camps to scientific/civil use

Ongoing: Cooperative monitoring and verification of demilitarization (see Annex 3)

Annex 2

Monitoring and Verification of the Demilitarisation

Overall Concept

"¢ Monitoring initially, by national technical means

"¢ Phase 1: Monitoring and verification of disengagement during the establishment of the DMZ
o Verify that posts, logistics centers, and base camps vacated

"¢ Phase 2: Post-disengagement monitoring of the DMZ
o Verify that military personnel and equipment do not re-enter the DMZ

"¢ On an ongoing basis, the primary monitoring and verification mechanisms will be both bilateral and cooperative

Goal is to verify withdrawal and dismantlement of military facilities

"¢ Visual: The withdrawal from Indian and Pakistani posts within line of sight of each other is to be coordinated so each side can observe the activities of the other. Ammunition and heavy weapons which cannot be moved immediately will be temporarily stored in-place and subject to joint verification and monitoring.

"¢ Joint Aerial Reconnaissance: A pair of Indian and Pakistani helicopters will rendezvous at an agreed location and then fly together along the Forward Battle Positions in the agreed sector to visually verify and photographically record
withdrawal and dismantlement of post or logistics camp.

"¢ On-site inspection: Both sides have the right to request that its representative land by helicopter at a location to confirm withdrawal and dismantlement.

"¢ Unilateral activities: Both sides should agree not to interfere with the other's national technical means Goal of detecting illicit re-occupation of positions within the DMZ

"¢ Monitoring and verification considerations:
o Nothing happens quickly on Siachen; logistics and weather drive all
o The possibility of a quick, stealthy reoccupation, without an air bridge, is remote
o Aerial operations are obvious
o Small-scale intrusions are neither significant nor sustainable

o Monitoring and verification should focus on logistics
o All Indian logistics flows through Dzingrulma
o Pakistan has multiple logistics routes through civilian villages

If that ain't a sell out I wonder what is

 

[mayfair]

Here's more.

Originally posted by the highly informed and knowledgeable poster Rohitvats on BRF

There has been an exchange of e-mails between Lt. General Katoch and one of the senior delegates in the Indian group which agreed on the Siachen CBM. I was made privy to the same courtesy an acquaintance in the loop.

To ensure that this critical matter reaches larger public, I'm providing a summary of the exchange. People need to read this to understand the level of shenanigans involved. Rest assured, I've permission to post this.

Summary of explanation given by the delegation member to Lt. General Katoch (retd.):

1.The delegation never said that India should vacate Siachen now but only suggested that SHOULD the two sides ever agree to demilitarize then this could possibly be a way

2. We were not appointed by any Government Agency nor do we have anything do with the Government of India. While it is true that we did meet several Government functionaries to keep us up to date, we take full responsibility for what we say and do.

3.We have also informed the Service Chiefs and many Very Senior Officers in the establishment dealing with Indo Pak issues

4.You (referring here to Lt. General Katoch) did mention that you had volunteered to brief the Group on Siachen and had made this offer to Admiral AK Singh. I am sorry we did not get to listen to you. But pleases be assured that we had inputs from many sources including the Service Headquarters.

Summary of response by Lt. General Katoch (retd.):

1.The Atlantic Council of Ottawa bulletin does not convey an agreement has been signed with the proviso that "SHOULD both parties agree to demilitarize" and that too without going into the why, when, the fall back line and its implications.

2.Why make a plan for withdrawing from your own territory and does it not militate against the Indian Parliament resolution that J&K is an integral part of India?

3.Pakistan for sure will continue to cite this agreement for eternity saying it had so many former military officers. The fact that government officials briefed the Track II does not make it any lesser official.[/B]

4.You made the assertion that "We were not appointed by any Government Agency nor do we have anything do with the Government of India." You imply that yours was a private body, which cannot be digested.

5. However, if for a moment one assumes that it indeed was a 'private body' then I hope you realize that discussing and agreeing to withdraw from Indian Territory amounts to treason and violation of both the Constitution of India and the 1994 Resolution of Indian Parliament declaring the whole of J&K is integral part of India.

6.Any citizen of India would be within his / her rights to serve you a legal notice on that count including an RTI asking which government officials briefed you / you and your team interacted with.

 

[mayfair]

And yet some folks refuse to see a priest on a mountain of sugar.

 

[spikey360]

This Government is hell bent on destroying India by any and every means possible. Ever since it took office, it has been sending wrong signals to Pakistan and the whole world.
>> It all started with the repealment of POTA, which is like stripping down before rapists.
>> Zero military retaliation after 26/11
>> Repeated protection of Afzal Guru from the noose.
>> Showing more concern for terrorists and terror suspects than victims of terror.
>> The shameful decapitulation at Sharm el Sheik.
>> Exchanging innumerable dossiers with Pakistan instead of gunfire who are then doing everything to discredit the material inside.
>> Appointing Kashmir 'interlocutors' whose final suggestion is something as unacceptable and anti national as giving 'independence' to Kashmir.
>> Agreeing on CBM and NCBMs while the sabre rattling continues from other side.
>> Suggesting anti national and anti military ideas like coming down from Siachen because the Pakis have died in an avalanche.

UPA has done everything in its power to weaken India and her stance against Pakistan. This is an anti national, anti social, minority government which deserves to be ousted by a military coup or better still, an early election.