Indian diplomat arrested, handcuffed in US for visa fraud

sob

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Section 377 applies even today, and I know that. There can be no conviction without evidence beyond reasonable doubt.
Section 377 cannot be applied on a complaint of a 3rd person. So even if we want to do something under this law, the authorities cannot take any action.
 

happy

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sayareakd

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Section 377 cannot be applied on a complaint of a 3rd person. So even if we want to do something under this law, the authorities cannot take any action.
I am sure Chanakya puri police station can find few persons (guys and girls) to make complaint against US diplomats at New Year party. :cool2:
 

roma

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given all that has been written on pages 100 and 101 ,

there seems to be a lot of "evidence!" that the usa has really not done proper homework on the matter -
a characteristic of the usa academic situation too ?

but that means the ball is back in our court ! and that might be somewhat inconvenient
will the present MMS goi take hard action ? ..... unlikely given some in his family are usa citizens
that means this matter will lie hidden somewhere in the background , seen but not heard

the usa has VERY CLEVERLY
allowed DK to leave the usa if she wants and not be required to attend court
but by saying that the case cant proceed without her - they have left open the verdict on her guilt, and not quashed teh charges which will still stand
it is a VERY CLEVER way of saying " we're not holding her back - but neither is she not guilty - and strongly implying her guilt as the reason for taking off, if indeed she did "
and so the need for an apology and compensation from the usa for the ill-treatment would be seriously dampened
if, when NAMO comes to power will he do something, ...he may not
because if the usa makes conciliatory noises to him and "forgives" him
he may take a softer stance on this issues - and really i havent seen him say anything substantial so far

the economic action and preference for purchasing weapons from other nations
may be the best way to go .... i.e no wallmart, no need for F35 etc etc
go slow on joint exercises with them - go more for eastern european joint exercises
keep that up for a year or two and we might get somewhere in getting the message across
that we could have taken stronger action but we have let them off.

this sick condition , where we cant and wont take equal action
is an indictment on OUR entire system
- especially if another similar case were to occur
and i feel that such a possibility cannot be entirely ruled out -
because in future the usa state dept might do its homework better

i sincerely feel the bottom line, the main issue in all this is to get india to behave as a junior partner
regardless of the number of side-shows which have managed to pop up
 
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asianobserve

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here is the funny part






http://www.justice.gov/usao/nys/pre...adeArrestPR/Khobragade, Devyani Complaint.pdf

so in the opinion of special agent she has only limited diplomatic immunity.........:rofl: based on this affidavit she was arrested. Judge was equally stupid to rely on this affidavit. God Save USA.............:taunt1:

You have not completely read the whole complaint. It is stated there that the Special Agent who filed the complaint has verified with the Protocols Section of their Foreign Ministry and knew that Ms. Khobragade only have limited immunity, meaning she only has immunity with respect to her official acts as Deputy COnsul General. And as we have discussed her at length consul officials only have limited immunity according to the VCCR.

And look it up in the website of the American Foreign Office and you will see that their material states that consular officials only have limited immunity. I don't think that a Special Agent of the American Foreign Office will miss out this very important detail or the judge that issued the warrant of arrest against Ms. Khobragade. BTW, right from the start of this issue I have already read that complaint since it is available in the internet. I just don't know how to paste it here.
 

sayareakd

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You have not completely read the whole complaint. It is stated there that the Special Agent who filed the complaint has verified with the Protocols Section of their Foreign Ministry and knew that Ms. Khobragade only have limited immunity, meaning she only has immunity with respect to her official acts as Deputy COnsul General. And as we have discussed her at length consul officials only have limited immunity according to the VCCR.

And look it up in the website of the American Foreign Office and you will see that their material states that consular officials only have limited immunity. I don't think that a Special Agent of the American Foreign Office will miss out this very important detail or the judge that issued the warrant of arrest against Ms. Khobragade. BTW, right from the start of this issue I have already read that complaint since it is available in the internet. I just don't know how to paste it here.
I have read it, he needs to read the International law, as pointed out earlier in the thread. Just because some foreign office staff dont know the law does not mean it changes. Plus it appears he forget the Raymond Davis case where his own countryman was involved and what was the foreign office said about him.
 

happy

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I have read it, he needs to read the International law, as pointed out earlier in the thread. Just because some foreign office staff dont know the law does not mean it changes. Plus it appears he forget the Raymond Davis case where his own countryman was involved and what was the foreign office said about him.
@asianobserve

I even doubt that, in all their hurry to arrest, strip and cavity search her they have even lost the fact that she was under UN immunity !!! I don't know what they found in her cavities but your cavities (read US State Dept and preet bharara) have been exposed !! :facepalm:
 
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asianobserve

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I have read it, he needs to read the International law, as pointed out earlier in the thread. Just because some foreign office staff dont know the law does not mean it changes. Plus it appears he forget the Raymond Davis case where his own countryman was involved and what was the foreign office said about him.

What international did you read in relations to the Khobragade case? What international law applies to Davies? You seem to know about international more than the entire American State Department that put up the syllabus...
 

asianobserve

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@asianobserve

I even doubt that, in all their hurry to arrest, strip and cavity search her they have even lost the fact that she was under UN immunity !!!

What UN immunity? She is an official of the Indian Consulate in New York not Indian Mission to the UN. The latter is what the Indian GOI is negotiating with the US, to allow her to transfer to the UN Mission of India so that she'll be given full immunity. The Americans agreed in theory but said that there's no rectroactive application of her UN immunity.
 
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sayareakd

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What international did you read in relations to the Khobragade case? What international law applies to Davies? You seem to know about international more than the entire American State Department that put up the syllabus...
At Delhi University they have one complete paper which is mandatory for all students to clear.
 

asianobserve

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At Delhi University they have one complete paper which is mandatory for all students to clear.

Don't you think the lawyers at the American Department of State, a lot of them are products of World famous law schools like Columbia, Harvard, Yale do not study international law that law students from Delhi University can just claim they know better?
 

asianobserve

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Here is an excerpt from the official website of the Department of Foreign Affairs of Australia on the Privileges and Immunities of foreign representatives:

Immunity from jurisdiction of Consular Officers and Consular Employees is limited to those established under Article 43 of the VCCR, that is, in respect of acts performed in the exercise of consular functions.
The attached matrix of immunities of foreign representatives from the same web page expounds on this rule:

Arrest or detention

xxx

Consular officers are exempt from jurisdiction in most matters relating to the exercise of their functions. They are liable for actions taken in a personal capacity. They may be arrested or detained, but only pursuant to a decision by a competent judicial authority with relation to a "grave crime" (an offence punishable on a first conviction by imprisonment for 5 or more years).
Privileges and immunities – Protocol Guidelines – Diplomatic, Consular and Other Representation in Australia – Australian Government Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade
 

sorcerer

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Don't you think the lawyers at the American Department of State, a lot of them are products of World famous law schools like Columbia, Harvard, Yale do not study international law that law students from Delhi University can just claim they know better?
Do you know that no matter where they are from, international school or Local school they are all human beings with vested interests in politics+own career agendas and they are called lawyers for a reason.

So..reality wise there is mucho more than anyone can see. It just got a hue of laws and regulations+arrogance.
 

asianobserve

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@ sayareakd

If as you claim there is in Delhi University the "complete paper" that points to an immunity in favor of Khobragade in the Visa Fraud and False Statement case against her in America then India does seem to have a separate and special Law on Consular Relations...


BTW, here is the Canadian Foreign Affairs' official guidelines on the matter of criminal jurisdiction and immunity for foreign consular officials in Canada, posted in its official website:

Immune from legal process, whether criminal or civil --- (Career Consular Officer) Yes, in respect of acts performed in the exercise of consular functions only
The same web further provides that:

2 Career consular officers cannot be arrested or detained pending trial unless a judicial warrant has been obtained in advance and the charges is for a "grave crime" (one for which the maximum penalty is five years or more), and issues of public safety are involved, in accordance with Art. 41(1) of the VCCR.
Scope of Immunities & Summary of Law Enforcement Measures - Bilateral Postings
 

asianobserve

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So..reality wise there is mucho more than anyone can see. It just got a hue of laws and regulations+arrogance.
...Or is it gullibility on a spectacular level among some (I don't know about the opinion on the matter of majority of Indians) Indians who are merely being duped by Indian politicians to believe that Ms. Khobragade is immune from criminal jurisdiction in America by making bogus immunity claims that they cannot even substantiate with specific provisions in the VCCR (all I've heard from Indian politicians are general statements of alleged immunity of Khobragade). The intention among politicans is clear, to win the Dalit vote bank and nationalistic anti-American swat of the Indian electorate in the coming elections by drumming up unconditional support in behalf of India to Khobragade even if no actual legal justification is being pointed out...
 
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ladder

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What international did you read in relations to the Khobragade case? What international law applies to Davies? You seem to know about international more than the entire American State Department that put up the syllabus...
So, you have started all over again?

Tell me which country has verbally apologized more than once for violation of art 36 of VCCR, at ICJ and who withdrew from option protocol of VCCR in 2005 to avoid further humiliations, Which country dear?

Hint, not India
 

sorcerer

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...Or is it gullibility on a spectacular level among some (I don't know about the opinion on the matter of majority of Indians) Indians who are merely being duped by Indian politicians to believe that Ms. Khobragade is immune from criminal jurisdiction in America by making bogus immunity claims that they cannot even substantiate with specific provisions in the VCCR (all I've heard from Indian politicians are general statements of alleged immunity of Khobragade).
Indian Politicians cannot fool the whole world with bogus claims like what US does best with its arrogance. Cuz if India doesnt play it right she has lots to lose in the international arena. Whatever claims which are put through by India has sufficient support minus the arrogance.
When India shouts "Tiger" there sure is a tiger with teeth, claws and all , not like US shouting WMDs ,Chemical Weapons /Diplomatic Immunity for "supposed" CIA Agent in Pakistan. etc etc

Why just DK? Why not the Moscow Diplomats? Why not the Jordanian Woman?
Unfortunately Indians do read and understand English and they read information from various sources. So they cannot be duped.

US diplomacy is quiet infamous and incapacitated from NOKO all the way to Syria, almost half the world, rest is just oceans and Cubans..

In DK case, US itself has "regretted" twice...already. I dont know how many more persons from the US will have this "regret" delivery days and weeks apart after a pregnant pause.
Nobody regrets if you are so sure of winning.
 
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sorcerer

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India, U.S. in diplomatic stand off | Home | Toronto Sun
The U.S. is playing games with India. But America must understand that the world has changed, times have changed and India has changed."

Those were tough words from India's Parliamentary Affairs Minister Kamal Nath, but they fell on deaf ears in Washington.

At issue is the case of India's deputy consul general in New York, Devyani Khobragade, who was arrested and handcuffed by U.S. marshals as she dropped off her daughter at school on the morning of Dec. 12.

Later, the 39-year old career diplomat was locked up, stripped naked and subjected to a search of her body cavities in what would appear to be a violation of the Vienna Convention that governs diplomats representing their countries in foreign lands. (U.S. authorities say her body cavities were visually inspected, but not searched).

'Visa fraud'

Khobragade was charged with committing "visa fraud" to employ an Indian maid.

Both Khobragade and the Indian government have angrily denied the allegations.

New Delhi has demanded an apology while the United States has said "no" and expressed surprise at India's outrage.

The man behind the arrest of the Indian diplomat is Indian-born Manhattan U.S. Attorney Preetinder Singh Bharara, (who prefers to be addressed as "Preet" or "Pete").

Bharara issued an official press release defending the arrrest, slamming his critics and announcing his office's organized crime unit was handling the case against the Indian diplomat.

While not explaining why the arrest had to take place outside Khobragade's daughter's school, Bharara acknowledged she was stripped naked and searched.

"It is true that she was fully searched by a female Deputy Marshal — in a private setting — when she was brought into the U.S. Marshals' custody," he said.

He added, "this is standard practice for every defendant, rich or poor, American or not, in order to make sure that no prisoner keeps anything on his person that could harm anyone, including himself."

Well, perhaps not always.

Remember the Saudi princess who was holding five maids captive in Irvine, California in July 2013? She was arrested at her home, not on the street, and if there was a strip search, there were no reports of it.

What about the 49 Russian diplomats charged by Bharara with defrauding the U.S. government health care program of $1.5 million? Not one was arrested and most are now back in Russia or out of the country.

Khobragrade could have been asked to leave the United States, or, if arrested, could have been picked up at her home.

This isn't the first time the Americans have publicly humiliated an Indian official.

In 2009, Continental Airlines' staff frisked India's former president A. P. J. Abdul Kalam. In 2011, the 80-year-old scientist had to endure another brush with U.S. security officials after he had boarded a flight at JFK to New Delhi.

Vacuum

This is the year (2014) that Indian and U.S. interests are supposed to converge, considering the vacuum left behind after America's defeat in Afghanistan that has left the Taliban and al-Qaida greatly strengthened.

But all that is now in jeopardy.

An unprecedented standoff has been the result: India cannot, and will not back down; America seems unable to fathom an undaunted and assertive India; and as for Obama-appointee Preetinder Singh Bharara?

Well, "Pete" has a bright political future.
Preter is really trying hard to stay "Americanised" with less calories .:toilet:
 

ladder

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@ sayareakd

If as you claim there is in Delhi University the "complete paper" that points to an immunity in favor of Khobragade in the Visa Fraud and False Statement case against her in America then India does seem to have a separate and special Law on Consular Relations...


BTW, here is the Canadian Foreign Affairs' official guidelines on the matter of criminal jurisdiction and immunity for foreign consular officials in Canada, posted in its official website:



The same web further provides that:



Scope of Immunities & Summary of Law Enforcement Measures - Bilateral Postings
The same page also provides this

4. (1) For the purpose of according to the diplomatic mission and consular posts of any foreign state, and persons connected therewith, treatment that is comparable to the treatment accorded to the Canadian diplomatic mission and Canadian consular posts in that foreign state, and persons connected therewith, the Minister of Foreign Affairs may, by order, with respect to that state's diplomatic mission and any of its consular posts, and any person connected therewith,
(a) extend any of the privileges and immunities accorded thereto under section 3, other than duty and tax relief privileges;
(b) grant thereto any of the benefits set out in the regulations;
(c) withdraw any of the privileges, immunities and benefits accorded or granted thereto; and
(d) restore any privilege, immunity or benefit withdrawn pursuant to paragraph (c).
Foreign Missions and International Organizations Act

================
Care to read in full.
 

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