Indian defence industry exports watch

[Johny_Baba]

Can you tell me who is that man in photo

Ho boy you don't know about our revolutionary leader who has won hearts and minds of millions of Internet Bakchods ?

Anyway,Meet 'Gormint Aunty',the eminent personality from Porkistan who clearly shows her desperation about porki 'gormint' in such a way...mashallah..

 

[tharun]

Made in India .................................................

I posted a couple of notifications can you please confirm them.........

 

[Prayash]

Ho boy you don't know about our revolutionary leader who has won hearts and minds of millions of Internet Bakchods ?

Anyway,Meet 'Gormint Aunty',the eminent personality from Porkistan who clearly shows her desperation about porki 'gormint' in such a way...mashallah..

Thx man,I hadn't seen it.
LOL

 

[Kay]

I would like Indian private startups and companies to take up these projects..but that is not how things work in India yet...you have to have Tatas, Ambanis and Adanis in the mix. Foreign players like to JV with them to get access to key government personnel and get files and proposals cleared without hassle. This is like paying facilitation fees at a much larger scale.
The nation definitely does not benefit from Ambani and Adanis doing screwdricergiri of imported knocked down jet kits. If they are doing the same for Tejas, at least that makes sense.
I am rooting for Baba Kalyani. He is like the Howard Hughes of India, rest all are there for the money.

 

[Moroboshi]

Notwithstanding this shitty title, care to enlighten us who apart from private sector behemoths will be able to implement a project of this magnitude? Care to tell us which type of company should get the contract to avoid your lazy "crony capitalist hurr durr" accusation?

 

[Kay]

Notwithstanding this shitty title, care to enlighten us who apart from private sector behemoths will be able to implement a project of this magnitude? Care to tell us which type of company should get the contract to avoid your lazy "crony capitalist hurr durr" accusation?

I would like companies with proven defence expertise preferably led by people who have passion in defence related research and development - but that's just me.
I don't see the need to buy foreign aircrafts in JVs with private companies with zero experience and expertise in jet development. If you are entering jet development, best to team up with Indian government agencies.

 

[Moroboshi]

I would like companies with proven defence expertise preferably led by people who have passion in defence related research and development - but that's just me.

Yeah... we don't have those on india in the private sector. neither will they pop up overnight. We got to work with what we have and major private firms are the only ones with the money out expertise to get started on this.

I don't see the need to buy foreign aircrafts in JVs with private companies with zero experience and expertise in jet development.

The jet is already developed. They JVs aren't building one from scratch. These companies have engineering experience and capital to set up factories and hire the right people to get the job done.

All companies have to start from somewhere. Your "companies with proven defence expertise" wouldn't materialize from thin air now , would it?

If you are entering jet development, best to team up with Indian government agencies.

And forever languish as an assembler of jets rather than a developer of one. Our sarkari babuas have had decades to pick up the slack. Let the private sector have a stab.

 

[Kay]

Yeah... we don't have those on india in the private sector. neither will they pop up overnight. We got to work with what we have and major private firms are the only ones with the money out expertise to get started on this.



The jet is already developed. They JVs aren't building one from scratch. These companies have engineering experience and capital to set up factories and hire the right people to get the job done.

All companies have to start from somewhere. Your "companies with proven defence expertise" wouldn't materialize from thin air now , would it?



And forever languish as an assembler of jets rather than a developer of one. Our sarkari babuas have had decades to pick up the slack. Let the private sector have a stab.

So our defence sceintists are your "Sarkari babuas"? Does the same apply for ISRO scientists - or you can pick and choose who you are calling names?
What is stopping our private defence aviation companies from building a jet or even a drone for that matter? What has been their contribution to aviation?
How is assembling kits for foreign companies any different from assembling kits for Indian public sector companies?

Companies like L&T, Bharat Forge and Mahindra and even Tatas trying to diversify in defence is understandable as they have related experience. But the case for companies tying up with foreign jet manufacturers is not strong. Foreign companies are only roping them in to lobby the government.

 

[Moroboshi]

our defence sceintists are your "Sarkari babuas"? Does the same apply for ISRO scientists - or you can pick and choose who you are calling names?

I can jolly well pick and choose there. Our ordinance factory fatcats and drdo have miserably failed in developing a domestic industry to cater to our needs. You can't invoke isro's stellar performance and give a free pass to these NPEs. Just because a single bureaucrat is good do you stop complaining about red tape too? Are you not picking and choosing there? What BS logic.

What is stopping our private defence aviation companies from building a jet or even a drone for that matter? What has been their contribution to aviation?
How is assembling kits for foreign companies any different from assembling kits for Indian public sector companies?

Yeah..i don't think allowing private sector defence manufacturing capabilities was on the list of government prioritiesat all. On the contrary we have successfully ensured a restrictive environment for such endaevors in typical socialist fashion.

Assembling kits should allow your firms to get at least a headstart on defence manufacturing and even absorb some technology. Of course they can go ahead and start trying to design something from scratch but tying up with foreign experts even if for license manufacture should provide a pathway to more independence in future. There is no one way to establishing a weapons industry.

 

[Kay]

@Moroboshi The DRDO' s achievements have not been any less stellar. Please go through the DRDO and PSU news thread. ISRO is not the target of negative PR campaigns by foreign lobbyists as well as backstabbing by our corrupt armed forces, beaurocrats and politicians for meeting personal ends. There have been missed timelines with ISRO as well, but goalposts have not been constantly moved.

Assembling kits do not give expertise to develop technology. You have to spend on RnD. By assembling a PC, you do not learn to develop a processor. Instead of assembling foreign kits, it makes much more sense to assemble Indian kits as technology (which is Indian) can be passed on to private companies. With foreign companies, no one can even verify if correct TOT is happening, let alone absorb that.

 

[Moroboshi]

@Moroboshi The DRDO' s achievements have not been any less stellar. Please go through the DRDO and PSU news thread. ISRO is not the target of negative PR campaigns by foreign lobbyists as well as backstabbing by our corrupt armed forces, beaurocrats and politicians for meeting personal ends. There have been missed timelines with ISRO as well, but goalposts have not been constantly moved.

Assembling kits do not give expertise to develop technology. You have to spend on RnD. By assembling a PC, you do not learn to develop a processor. Instead of assembling foreign kits, it makes much more sense to assemble Indian kits as technology (which is Indian) can be passed on to private companies. With foreign companies, no one can even verify if correct TOT is happening, let alone absorb that.

I do agree that DRDO has had some success stories, but foreign interference can't surely account for all of its failures! DRDO has been stretched too thin and needs a systemic overhaul. Surely we can use resources available to the private sector to offload the responsibility to some extent.

Even with assembling kits, let me rephrase my previous argument. Doesn't the fighter jet contract have offset clauses too? So at least some parts of the kit would be made here one would hope.

 

[Kay]

Until recently, Dassault was saying that they are ready to transfer technology but apparently HAL is not ready to absorb it. But apparently, private aviation companies with zero experience are equipped to absorb that.
They are openly mocking our collective intelligence and we have decided not to speak up against this travesty.

 

[Kay]

I do agree that DRDO has had some success stories, but foreign interference can't surely account for all of its failures! DRDO has been stretched too thin and needs a systemic overhaul. Surely we can use resources available to the private sector to offload the responsibility to some extent.

Even with assembling kits, let me rephrase my previous argument. Doesn't the fighter jet contract have offset clauses too? So at least some parts of the kit would be made here one would hope.

DRDO has administrative and management problems - but mostly they lack a PR arm.

Regarding the JVs with private companies, at the minimum, there should be some government oversight on what TOT is going on - otherwise we will be fooled - and ToT should be provided to GOI, not private companies.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

And forever languish as an assembler of jets rather than a developer of one. Our sarkari babuas have had decades to pick up the slack. Let the private sector have a stab.

LOL,
Ya finding it so easy? What government couldn't do with decades of R&D, so that primitive private sector got alien tech?

Be at the place of those babuas once and see what's the problem, making a jet engine is a far more difficult job than making a rocket engine.

 

[Moroboshi]

LOL,
Ya finding it so easy? What government couldn't do with decades of R&D, so that primitive private sector got alien tech?

Be at the place of those babuas once and see what's the problem, making a jet engine is a far more difficult job than making a rocket engine.

Lol. Decades of r and d with not much to show about. Give me a break. Having the human and natural resources of a country the size of India and we are importing even some of the most basic stuff. And apparently I shouldn't talk shit because their feelings would get hurt. All I am saying is given the time and resources pressed into these white elephants we are better off with expanding our avenues for production and not just getting stuck in an infinite loop of hoping they will improve. They may, but what's wrong with exploring alternatives if things aren't working to our favor.

And I love that any criticism of government babus invokes a lecture of how hard a jet engine is to make. There is a whole line of technologies between a 9mm bullet and a turbofan. How many truly competitive world class products have they come up with that justifies your deference to them?

 

[Kay]

Lol. Decades of r and d with not much to show about. Give me a break. Having the human and natural resources of a country the size of India and we are importing even some of the most basic stuff. And apparently I shouldn't talk shit because their feelings would get hurt. All I am saying is given the time and resources pressed into these white elephants we are better off with expanding our avenues for production and not just getting stuck in an infinite loop of hoping they will improve. They may, but what's wrong with exploring alternatives if things aren't working to our favor.

And I love that any criticism of government babus invokes a lecture of how hard a jet engine is to make. There is a whole line of technologies between a 9mm bullet and a turbofan. How many truly competitive world class products have they come up with that justifies your deference to them?

You are free to criticize, but criticism should be justified.

 

[Moroboshi]

You are free to criticize, but criticism should be justified.

I agree and nothing would make me happier than to see our government agencies coming up to scratch with the responsibilities laid out to them. But how can one look at the lopsided performance of the institutions (we still import about 70% of all defence acquisitions, 70%!) and make a case for status quo? Surely not all of it is high tech stuff? Clearly things are not working as they should and I see no fault on trying to bring more resources from the private sectors to deal with this.

The inability of government agencies to address defence needs goes deeper than a corrupt acquisitions process and we should realize that.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Lol. Decades of r and d with not much to show about. Give me a break. Having the human and natural resources of a country the size of India and we are importing even some of the most basic stuff.

Having size only doesn't matter, Human Resources must be well developed where we suck mate, saying again,
India's social progress started literally after 90s, there's been negligible social progress before and skills aren't developed in a day.

And I love that any criticism of government babus invokes a lecture of how hard a jet engine is to make.

Okay, as per you it's pretty easy, metallurgical expertise of centuries isn't required (clue why limited to a specific group of country).

I'm wondering why all of those losers were sitting there in chairs and experts like you are wasting time with us keyboard warriors.
For rest, problem occurs above a certain class of thrust only.
Go and educate them for educate us about that. You think it's that easy but lot of dimensions are there.

How many truly competitive world class products have they come up with that justifies your deference to them?

I don't count, will select and list them up but I'm cautious about your definition of world class.

we still import about 70% of all defence acquisitions, 70%!

Around 45, much depends upon basis you choose.

Just calling them babus and trolling in name of criticism won't improve anything either. Any system could run if had enough developed human resources which we don't. Yet demeaning the achievements yet made isn't very good either.

 

[Kshithij]

I agree and nothing would make me happier than to see our government agencies coming up to scratch with the responsibilities laid out to them. But how can one look at the lopsided performance of the institutions (we still import about 70% of all defence acquisitions, 70%!) and make a case for status quo? Surely not all of it is high tech stuff? Clearly things are not working as they should and I see no fault on trying to bring more resources from the private sectors to deal with this.

The inability of government agencies to address defence needs goes deeper than a corrupt acquisitions process and we should realize that.

We don't import 70%. We import 50% as of now and that is going to go down severely by 2025.

We import heavily because of traitorous people in the politics funded by foreign government which has now been taken care of.

Our scientists have developed a lot of things against all odds and severe restrictions from the government which has to be lauded.

We have developed or are in upper stages of develop in almost everything except for turbofan engine, ramjet, and 5th generation fighter capabilities.

Several items of high end technology are-

PINAKA
Akash SAM
QR SAM
Astra missile
Nuclear submarine
Diesel submarine (though scorpene is designed by MBDA, it has been purchased)
Sonars
Torpedos
Radars
Seekers for Astra
Technology for ship building and aircraft carrier
Satellite surveillance
Ballistic missiles
ATGM - NAG and ToT for Spike
Artillery
LCH

What we are about to complete -
Engine for tanks and complete MBT
Basic Drones
Seekers for Brahmos and Barak-8
UTTAM AESA
Subsonic cruise missile

What critical technology is left to acquire -
Transport planes
Turbofan engine
Turboshaft engine
5th generation capability
Ramjet
High end drones

 

[Moroboshi]

Having size only doesn't matter, Human Resources must be well developed where we suck mate, saying again,
India's social progress started literally after 90s, there's been negligible social progress before and skills aren't developed in a day.

Agree entirely.

Okay, as per you it's pretty easy, metallurgical expertise of centuries isn't required (clue why limited to a specific group of country).

I'm wondering why all of those losers were sitting there in chairs and experts like you are wasting time with us keyboard warriors.
For rest, problem occurs above a certain class of thrust only.
Go and educate them for educate us about that. You think it's that easy but lot of dimensions are there.

Read my comment again. Nowhere have I belittled the development required to make technologies like a jet engine. Complexity of developing a jet engine is used way too often as an excuse on how tough anything defense related is.

Surely multiple technologies are less complex and more easily replicated than a gas turbine blade!

Around 45, much depends upon basis you choose.

I stand corrected if true.

Just calling them babus and trolling in name of criticism won't improve anything either. Any system could run if had enough developed human resources which we don't. Yet demeaning the achievements yet made isn't very good either.

I am only demeaning their lack of performance in many areas. Not just for the heck of it. Funny how I am trolling merely because I disagree with you.

You yourself admit to a lack of developed human resources. All I am saying it is that it is shows in the manner we deal with defense procurement.