Indian Army wants futuristic vehicle for its Armoured corps

[ersakthivel]

When you get a chance to meet somebody from the Armoured Corp you speak to him and will get an idea about the perspective of the IA about Russian T 90 and Arjun.

And do not twist words here. Army cannot be bound by a GSQR which is 3 decades old. do not keep on harping that Army keeps on changing specs. See the time line also and then comment on this.

The design of Arjun was accepted and frozen in 1998 by IA, irrespective of which GSQR was issued when.Even after that they kept on giving modifications which further delayed induction as pointed out by CAG report. Why?

Through out Arjun program a an IA guy should have been the pointsman on the program who should have cleared all the weight inducing specs like weight , auto loader, safe ammo storage, 4 men crew . What was the motive behind it?

if the IA did not want a 60 ton safe ammo storage, no auto loader, 4 men crew Arjun ,, why did they accept and freeze Arjun design in 1998 as pointed out by CAG report?

And why did they keep on giving 93 more modifications in the form of Arjun mk2, which further added to weight?They could have asked for a three men crew auto loader no safe ammo t-90 type tank fro immediate induction needs. It could have easily been developed and fielded by now.


It was eminently doable in double quick time, since the gun , FCS tech, composite armor tech, suspension tech were all mastered on Arjun. Why IA which bought T-90 in thousands did not ask CVRDE to develop a similar one in 1998?

 

[pmaitra]

The design of Arjun was accepted and frozen in 1998 by IA, irrespective of which GSQR was issued when.Even after that they kept on giving modifications which further delayed induction as pointed out by CAG report. Why?

Through out Arjun program a an IA guy should have been the pointsman on the program who should have cleared all the weight inducing specs like weight , auto loader, safe ammo storage, 4 men crew . What was the motive behind it?

if the IA did not want a 60 ton safe ammo storage, no auto loader, 4 men crew Arjun ,, why did they accept and freeze Arjun design in 1998 as pointed out by CAG report?

And why did they keep on giving 93 more modifications in the form of Arjun mk2, which further added to weight?They could have asked for a three men crew auto loader no safe ammo t-90 type tank fro immediate induction needs. It could have easily been developed and fielded by now.


It was eminently doable in double quick time, since the gun , FCS tech, composite armor tech, suspension tech were all mastered on Arjun. Why IA which bought T-90 in thousands did not ask CVRDE to develop a similar one in 1998?

The design might have been frozen in 1998, but the trend in tank development moved towards heavy tanks with priority on crew survivability, and it would not have been wise to ignore it. There is nothing wrong with the Army changing its requirements to keep up with the global trend. What is wrong is when someone claims that DRDO took 30 years to make one tank, when in reality they have been making different tanks.

One thing that I pointed out earlier is, DRDO should simply issue a project number or object number. Every time there is a requirement agreed to by both DRDO and the Army, they should call it Object <some number x>. If there is significant change in requirements, then Object <some number x> should be scrapped, and a new Object <some number y> initiated. Now, what is "significant" change? That is subjective. This is something that should be left to the discretion of DRDO, because, if there is a delay, ultimately, they are the ones who will get the blame.

Now, once a certain Object <some number z> is accepted after user trails, it should be christened, and given a name.

 

[Bhadra]

What has been the global trend in Tank technology development ?

After development of Abrams - virtually nothing. This is fallacy that the world inched towards heavy tanks. The world of Tanks is stuck at Leopard, Abrams, Merkava and T-90 ranging from heavy to medium tanks. It is another thing altogether the world has indeed witnessed a new scenario for employment of tanks - the built up areas - such as Chechnya, Georgia, Iraq, Syria and by the Israelis. That did necessitate adding weight to the tanks. Does it mean Indians need a tank to be employed like that ? Are we USA, Russia, Iraq or Syria ?

Things remained frozen there on design and development front. Only one new design Armata has appeared on the world scene . Nothing more. And that also needs to prove itself.

US Stryker concept has also not progressed beyond limited quantities required by US forces.

It is fallacy to keep harping that the world trend is heavy tanks just to give rationale to heavy Arjun. This is what happens when one tries to ape the West without realistically evaluating ones own requirements. DGMF and DRDO both are guilty of that aping without consideration of own conditions and employment of tanks.

Now the DGMF desire to evaluate a design for Meduim Tank for 2030s ... so be it. Give the design rather cry rivers.

Arjun lost a golden chance of being inducted before T-90 as those were not ready by 2000 nor were likely to be ready in short period. I place you in the shoes of Def Secy and RM and ask you what could have done when no tank design has been produces from 1974 upto 1998 and the production of that design will take another 20 years and countries tank fleet is obsolete - country has just escaped a full blown war and situation is rather volatile. To hell with DGMF and DRDO - country need tanks - and that is it !!

As the situation now, in terms of holding and numbers of tanks , vintage and life span of tanks, suggests that there is no chance for Arjun. It is good experimental tank and DRDO should develop further on what ever has been learnt. If they learnt any thing at all with more than 70 per cent import. It is an absolute fallacy to say import was necessary due to lack of orders. No, tank has technology that is multi users - engine technology, suspension technology, armour, gunnery, electronics, night vision, fire control, Lasers, etc is not specific to tanks but has multiple application in the defence. Infantry itself needs thousands of night devices. To say these were not developed due to lack of orders is plain bullshit.

Even if one cries hoarse and keep repeating Arjun in every thread, day and night.. it is not going to be there.

Period.

 

[ersakthivel]

What has been the global trend in Tank technology development ?

After development of Abrams - virtually nothing. This is fallacy that the world inched towards heavy tanks. The world of Tanks is stuck at Leopard, Abrams, Merkava and T-90 ranging from heavy to medium tanks. It is another thing altogether the world has indeed witnessed a new scenario for employment of tanks - the built up areas - such as Chechnya, Georgia, Iraq, Syria and by the Israelis. That did necessitate adding weight to the tanks. Does it mean Indians need a tank to be employed like that ? Are we USA, Russia, Iraq or Syria ?

Things remained frozen there on design and development front. Only one new design Armata has appeared on the world scene . Nothing more. And that also needs to prove itself.

US Stryker concept has also not progressed beyond limited quantities required by US forces.

It is fallacy to keep harping that the world trend is heavy tanks just to give rationale to heavy Arjun. This is what happens when one tries to ape the West without realistically evaluating ones own requirements. DGMF and DRDO both are guilty of that aping without consideration of own conditions and employment of tanks.

Now the DGMF desire to evaluate a design for Meduim Tank for 2030s ... so be it. Give the design rather cry rivers.

Arjun lost a golden chance of being inducted before T-90 as those were not ready by 2000 nor were likely to be ready in short period. I place you in the shoes of Def Secy and RM and ask you what could have done when no tank design has been produces from 1974 upto 1998 and the production of that design will take another 20 years and countries tank fleet is obsolete - country has just escaped a full blown war and situation is rather volatile. To hell with DGMF and DRDO - country need tanks - and that is it !!

As the situation now, in terms of holding and numbers of tanks , vintage and life span of tanks, suggests that there is no chance for Arjun. It is good experimental tank and DRDO should develop further on what ever has been learnt. If they learnt any thing at all with more than 70 per cent import. It is an absolute fallacy to say import was necessary due to lack of orders. No, tank has technology that is multi users - engine technology, suspension technology, armour, gunnery, electronics, night vision, fire control, Lasers, etc is not specific to tanks but has multiple application in the defence. Infantry itself needs thousands of night devices. To say these were not developed due to lack of orders is plain bullshit.

Even if one cries hoarse and keep repeating Arjun in every thread, day and night.. it is not going to be there.

Period.

After development of Abrams - virtually nothing. This is fallacy that the world inched towards heavy tanks. The world of Tanks is stuck at Leopard, Abrams, Merkava and T-90 ranging from heavy to medium tanks. It is another thing altogether the world has indeed witnessed a new scenario for employment of tanks - the built up areas - such as Chechnya, Georgia, Iraq, Syria and by the Israelis. That did necessitate adding weight to the tanks. Does it mean Indians need a tank to be employed like that ? Are we USA, Russia, Iraq or Syria ?

Wrong argument, Why/

Western nations started with heavy tanks, stayed with heavy tanks and will stay with heavy tanks , because battle winning and crew safety is their core concern from the first day itself, which led to 50 plus ton weight tanks from the days of Centurians. As the penetration level for Anti tank rounds kept on improving they kept improving their armor and gun tech and didn't change their weight.IA too has used the same 52 tons centurains very successfully in Khemkaran well before the 1970s induction of T-72.So it is a bogus argument to say border infra is fit only for 40 ton T series tanks!!!

Questioning this is as illogical as asking,"why a tree is staying in the same place"



"Arjun lost a golden chance of being inducted before T-90 as those were not ready by 2000 nor were likely to be ready in short period. I place you in the shoes of Def Secy and RM and ask you what could have done when no tank design has been produces from 1974 upto 1998 and the production of that design will take another 20 years and countries tank fleet is obsolete - country has just escaped a full blown war and situation is rather volatile. To hell with DGMF and DRDO - country need tanks - and that is it !!"

many tank designs were produced from 1974 to 1998 and nothing could be finalized , only because IA changed the basic fundamental specs of its GSQR may times. SO IA made it impossible for a single tank design to be finished , knowing fully well that their continued alterations will stall the program. IA as it is showing to the world today with RFI for FRCV, was as clueless about which tank will fit in india even in the 1974 to 1994 period.

think how could have Kochin shipyard built an indigenous Carrier if IN changed the, weight , runway length and breadth of it every three years.

As per the CAG report it was army's insistence on 0 liter water ingress for medium fording which led to already assembled 50 odd Arjuns to be dismantled and delayed the project, But at the same time IA though nothing about 2.5 liter water ingress while fording for T-90, which is still the norm!!!

If at all IA conducted a comparison for Arjun trial with T-90 before they ordered 1000s of T-90 they would have found out that Arjun was at a much better battle readiness than T-90. it is a fact that T-90 still cant fight prolonged battles in summer indian climate with out Ac and fitting Ac will compromise its ruggedness many folds.Add to that the Invar missiles which arrived with t-90 were also fully non functional.

As the situation now, in terms of holding and numbers of tanks , vintage and life span of tanks, suggests that there is no chance for Arjun. It is good experimental tank and DRDO should develop further on what ever has been learnt. If they learnt any thing at all with more than 70 per cent import. It is an absolute fallacy to say import was necessary due to lack of orders. No, tank has technology that is multi users - engine technology, suspension technology, armour, gunnery, electronics, night vision, fire control, Lasers, etc is not specific to tanks but has multiple application in the defence. Infantry itself needs thousands of night devices. To say these were not developed due to lack of orders is plain bullshit.

If it is so why has IA ordered 124 Arjun mk2s?

Once again 70 percent import is another illogical piece of argument used by import lobby to justify their false claims. Low order lots preclude developing everything in house. How many times we have to say that? Who will develop everything in house for a production order of just 124 tanks?

Peddlers of this argument betray even basic lack of understanding of any simple engineering R&D. Often these guys dont know anything about how a technological product development is envisaged and how R&D goes on to field a prototype and then how various subsystems are developed as the product is given a huge order.

It is like saying that Toyato is unfit to be called a global auto giant because they dont even produce tyres, windshield, fuel injection systems, headlamps, tail light, horns , Ac, and paints for their cars!!! Hell many car makers still use other brand engine in their cars!!!


Even the rafale has many US imported parts and its USP meteor Air to Air missile is not developed by French!!! In gripen engines , radar, air to air missiles, even bombs are from US and other European countries.

Does this mean these products are failures? For Gods sake even the US army Abrams have German guns!!! The J-20 and J-31 both are flying on Al-31 engines from Russia!!!

Without even understanding this basic stuff, writing stuff like this is Pure BS!!!------No, tank has technology that is multi users - engine technology, suspension technology, armour, gunnery, electronics, night vision, fire control, Lasers, etc is not specific to tanks but has multiple application in the defence. Infantry itself needs thousands of night devices. To say these were not developed due to lack of orders is plain bullshit."

First you dont even accept Arjun which would have formed the back bone of the mil industry which would have mastered the techs mentioned above , and then go lambasting that DRDO should have developed those tech without orders for Arjun!!!

It is a deceptive argument to conceal the fact that DRDO gets its funds sanctioned only by specifying a concrete end product to IA. otherwise Finance Ministry has no mandate to fund these technological expeditions of DRDO with no end product in mind.

 

[ezsasa]

Going by RFI, since the last date is 31st july atleast by Aug/Sep we will know which companies have been shortlisted for design. Atleast that should narrow our guess work.

RFI last date of submission moved to 31st Aug from 31st Jul, Looks like MoD did not get a enthusiastic response from multiple vendors.

 

[pmaitra]

RFI last date of submission moved to 31st Aug from 31st Jul, Looks like MoD did not get a enthusiastic response from multiple vendors.

Ah, thanks for posting this. I almost forgot that the RFI deadline was end of July.

 

[sayareakd]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...and-futuristic-tanks/articleshow/48355161.cms

Army, DRDO fight it out again over Arjun and futuristic tanks
Rajat Pandit,TNN | Aug 5, 2015, 10.55 AM IST

NEW DELHI: Yet another battle has erupted between the Army and DRDO in their long-running feud over the indigenous Arjun main-battle tank. Unhappy at being saddled with 122 Arjun Mark-I tanks, the force has refused to order its Mark-II variant till the prototypes perform satisfactorily.

The Army has also kicked off a global hunt for a "future ready combat vehicle (FRCV)", asking foreign and domestic companies to submit design proposals by August 31 to build "a new-generation, state-of-the-art combat vehicle platform".

This, in effect, will scuttle DRDO's attempt to build a futuristic main-battle tank (FMBT). Clearly dismayed with the proposed FRCV project, the DRDO has lashed out at the Army for "never really supporting" the indigenous endeavor to build current and next-generation MBTs.

"Arjuns did better than Russian-origin T-90S tanks in comparative trials in 2010. But the Army keeps on changing its technical requirements. If it ordered around 500 Arjuns, it would stabilize production lines. This, in turn, will allow regular upgrades and set the stage for developing the FMBT," said a scientist.

The referee in the raging battle, defence minister Manohar Parrikar, told Parliament on Tuesday that the Army's proposed FRCV project was to meet its "futuristic requirements beyond 2027". It is "not in conflict with the current MBT Arjun programme and its future orders", he added.

But the Army is adamant it will not order 118 Arjun Mark-II tanks, at a cost of Rs 5,745 crore, till they clear all operational trials. The force already has 122 Arjun Mark-I tanks, with the bulk of them being grounded at present due to major technical and maintenance problems.

"The bane of Arjun is its 62-tonne weight and the consequent poor operational mobility," said a top officer. Given its excessive weight and width, the Arjun can't be used in Punjab and northern deserts for armoured thrusts under the "Pro-Active" or "Cold Start" war strategy, which has long rattled Pakistan.

"Many bridges and culverts in Punjab will not be able to take its weight. Moreover, our rail tank transporters will find it tough to carry the Arjuns from one sector to another," he added.

The Arjun Mark-II, in turn, will have 73 technical improvements over the Mark-I. These range from the capability to fire missiles from the main gun and advanced laser warning and control systems to explosive reactive armour plates for better self-protection of the tanks.

Though Parrikar said 53 of the 73 improvement in Arjun Mark-II had been "found successful based on user trials" till now, the Army contends the tank now weighs an alarming 67 tonnes.

"The worry is that DRDO will push an Arjun Mark-III under the FMBT programme. Under the FCRV project in tune with the Make in India policy, we are looking at futuristic combat platform which can multi-task, take on both enemy tanks and attack helicopters," said the Army officer.

any idea if the T90S fulfill GSQR, or it has been tested in the Indian Conditions, with all the GSQR ?
Last they were searching for air conditioner and crying to DRDO for its gun, armor and AC, wounder what happen to that.

Plus T90s fire control cant fire any foreign ammo. I was told that it has system where in only Russian crew can use the tank.........

 

[pmaitra]

Please continue discussion here: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...in-conflict-with-drdo-project-parrikar.69201/

 

[garg_bharat]

There is nothing wrong with T-90. So if Army wants it, I would let Army buy it.

Arjun's import content is more than the price of T-90. So while I can jump about on "indigenous" Arjun, the reality is different.

The problem is more with Army having serious red tape. Army is suffering from very slow decision making.