Indian Army not ready for War with China

Yusuf

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If you think India has come to terms with the fact (especially in the last year or so) that there is a extreme possiblity of a two front war, with two nuclear powers!
What do decisions do you think our Strategic Planners would have taken?
That is because India follows the Sundarji's Doctrine.
This is what he had to say back then.

In war-fighting, whether conventional or nuclear, whilst calculating relative strengths, more is always better. But for deterrence, more is not better if less is adequate.

Dreams of 'disarming first strikes' leading to the temptation to 'go first' and the consequent instability of Small Nuclear Power equations are think-tank myths.

I strongly suspect that the genie has already escaped from the bottle, and proliferation has already occurred, making it too late to keep the area nuclear weapon-free. I believe that the emphasis must now shift to keeping the area nuclear weapon-safe.

If a minimum nuclear deterrent is in place, it will act as a stabilizing factor"¦ Why all this fuss about India and Pakistan, while not much is heard about the Israeli nuclear arsenal?

Many arguments"¦ are used to harangue India and Pakistan, pointing out that they are foolish (children) to believe that by going nuclear they are augmenting their national security, when by Western reckoning they are only increasing their vulnerability to nuclear chastisement (by the legitimately nuclear adults of the world, the

For a sober, mature status quo power like India, a unilateral declaration of no first use should be axiomatic.

Possession of nuclear weapons would give Pakistan the confidence to face a larger neighbour with security and honor"¦ This confidence on the part of Pakistan is to be welcomed as it is a positive asset for national sobriety and regional stability.

Why would the Chinese want to fire nuclear weapons at us – just because we are supposed to have deployed some nuclear weapons that have the range to reach China?

India has to maintain a minimum deterrence in respect of both China and Pakistan; the result of this might lead to some apparent imbalance in nuclear weapons and delivery means between Pakistan and India. The fears that this might engender in Pakistan are natural, and India must handle the issue sensibly and with sensitivity.
Sundarji was a great thinker and strategist. He was way ahead in his thought process than others.
 

Yusuf

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Former presdent APJ abdul kalam in an interview had hinted that in our arsenal that we may be having not only nukes but hydrogen bom also..but he refused to validate it and just hinted the possibility.Aren't 100 nukes not sufficient of destroying the whole Asia.
Britain had all its 200 nukes pointed at Moscow to just take care of Moscow.
 

Yusuf

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There is also positive side for the the bad infrastructure we had developed across the border which may help us indirectly if things went out of control ie..Even if an attack occur at the LAC and even if we are pushed back chinese wont be goin to make any deep intrusion thanks to the bad infrastructure we had made in the border areas and even f any fool from across the border dared to cross the border with a brigade or division then they will be slaughtered coz at this time those roads are not favourable fr the movement of heavy armour and infantry without heavy armour support are nothing ...
This is exactly the reason why Indian govt did not make good infra there as it was disclosed recently. Flawed logic but then thats true.
 

ALBY

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My dear ALBY: better NOT think that way. Your assumption will be that Chinese won't be able to fix those "favorable" road in war time. According to Maxwell book about 1962 war, it's the contrary. Chinese fixed the road between Tawang and Se La (forgive me if spelling is wrong) so fast that IA was caught at another surprise.
I only pointed out a pointed a possibility and repairing those roads is not cakewalk which will be completed with in hours or a couple of days that too in a war it will be messy.and in war every hour and minute is crucial.We could stop them for atleast some days and the army could think and formulate a better counter offensive.remember the operation barbarossa which after initial success was blown up due to the huge traffic jams of nazi vehicles in narrow russian roads that longed for many days.
ps:but i woud never wish such a battle in which the chinese will break through our lines instead i wish they all slaghtered at the LAC.
 

Adux

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Yusuf,

We have moved on from that. To be honest, Chinese soldiers in PoK as well as the increasing of Pakistani nukes, would lead us to believe pakistan is not happy with the status quo given to them by minimum deterrence. Today Chinese would want to fire at us, not because we have some missiles pointed a them rather, we will be a global superpower soon. They need to stop us. Today India doesnt look at Pak-china issues with India as two separate issues. There is an alliance being formed.
 

Adux

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China will soon have 500 odd Nukes and Pakistan around 200? How much does India require? I rather India have more than them both combined. A message needs to be send that we are serious about making glass bowls out of them.
 

SHASH2K2

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China will soon have 500 odd Nukes and Pakistan around 200? How much does India require? I rather India have more than them both combined. A message needs to be send that we are serious about making glass bowls out of them.
Adux we have more than enough fissile material to create over thousand bombs. Its better not to make bombs as it will increase unnecessary expenditure. we should have some minimum required numbers and if needed we can easily increase the number .
 

Yusuf

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Adu,

!2 Chinese bombs deterred the mighty Soviets.
 

Galaxy

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We should start developing Hydrogen Bomb like Russian Tsar Bomba. I heard we have capability to make, But ......... :rolleyes:
 

ace009

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We should start developing Hydrogen Bomb like Russian Tsar Bomba. I heard we have capability to make, But ......... :rolleyes:
Why do we need H-bombs? What are we trying to achieve? mutual assured destruction? or minimum deterrence and self defence?
What tactical nukes can achieve, you do not want to use a H-bomb for - right? So, it will be used as a strategic weapon - i.e. to take out industrial centers, military complexes cities etc.Big bombs are useless for self defence and are a drain on your resources. If your enemy is not deterred by tactical nukes which can wipe out whole divisions in one hit, why do you think he will be deterred by a H-bomb? Both sides know that H-bombs are a last resort and will ensure retaliation for sure, So, they can call your bluff (and vice versa).
Also, use of a strategic H-bomb on civilians will call in swift political isolation from the rest of the world. It might even bring in third party players against you.
The defence of a nation is not all about bravado and d1ck measurement. It is about careful and intelligent use of your resources and optimising the amount of force necessary to bring about your desired outcome.

Infrastructure development in the northeast is a key issue for India - not only because infrastructure development will help in troop mobilization and defense against PLA, but also because it will help in local social and economic development, which reduces internal conflicts, terrorism etc.
 

Yusuf

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Why do we need H-bombs? What are we trying to achieve? mutual assured destruction? or minimum deterrence and self defence?
What tactical nukes can achieve, you do not want to use a H-bomb for - right? So, it will be used as a strategic weapon - i.e. to take out industrial centers, military complexes cities etc.Big bombs are useless for self defence and are a drain on your resources. If your enemy is not deterred by tactical nukes which can wipe out whole divisions in one hit, why do you think he will be deterred by a H-bomb? Both sides know that H-bombs are a last resort and will ensure retaliation for sure, So, they can call your bluff (and vice versa).
Also, use of a strategic H-bomb on civilians will call in swift political isolation from the rest of the world. It might even bring in third party players against you.
The defence of a nation is not all about bravado and d1ck measurement. It is about careful and intelligent use of your resources and optimising the amount of force necessary to bring about your desired outcome.

Infrastructure development in the northeast is a key issue for India - not only because infrastructure development will help in troop mobilization and defense against PLA, but also because it will help in local social and economic development, which reduces internal conflicts, terrorism etc.
Not quite. Though we dont need a Tsar Bomba no one is scared of tactical nukes that takes out a whole lot of troops with tanks etc but they are scared of their population centers been taken out. We dont need Megaton bombs for population centers either. Even the primary US arsenal today is based on a avg yield of 250-350 KT. India has a no first use policy so if at all we target any city, it will be after suffering the same so no international opinion will be against us.

Sundarji called for minimum deterrence. Its up to the policy makers to decide what is minimum. I am sure India is not going to make thousands of them even if we have the fissile material for it. But if we are to sum up the delivery systems being developed, tested and acquired which includes ballistic and cruise missiles, fighter aircrafts and add to that the development of nuclear submarines with SLBM capability being developed then it means that our nuclear arsenal will have to be quite a bit more than the 80-100 figure that keeps getting thrown around. i think we may up the arsenal to about 250 warheads which will be equal to what China has today and what Pakistan will also have. The only difference between Paki nukes and ours is that our yield is going to be quite a lot more than Paki ones as we have heard from one of the nuke scientists that India is going to mount 200-250 KT warheads on our missiles.
 

Adux

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Adu,

!2 Chinese bombs deterred the mighty Soviets.
So what does that tell you about Indo-Pak situation, and your contention that we should call the Pakistani nuclear bluff.

Anyways, There is a reason why USA and USSR went into thousands of Nuclear weapons. The same reason holds true for India v/s Pakchin.

It is the same reason we talk about our massive unforgiving nuclear retaliation on somebody who drops a nuke on us! This is our national policy and strategy! Do we have the capacity of the above in terms of Pakchin. Answer is NO. Therefore we dont fulfill our own benchmark for defense.

India has a declared nuclear no-first-use policy and is in the process of developing a nuclear doctrine based on "credible minimum deterrence." In August 1999, the Indian government released a draft of the doctrine[15][dead link] which asserts that nuclear weapons are solely for deterrence and that India will pursue a policy of "retaliation only". The document also maintains that India "will not be the first to initiate a nuclear first strike, but will respond with punitive retaliation should deterrence fail" and that decisions to authorize the use of nuclear weapons would be made by the Prime Minister or his 'designated successor(s).'"[15]
According to the NRDC, despite the escalation of tensions between India and Pakistan in 2001-2002, India remains committed to its nuclear no-first-use policy.
Indian National Security Advisor Shri Shiv Shankar Menon signaled a significant shift from "No first use" to "no first use against non-nuclear weapon states" in a speech on the occasion of Golden Jubilee celebrations of National Defence College in New Delhi on October 21, 2010, a doctrine Menon said reflected India's "strategic culture, with its emphasis on minimal deterrence."[16][17]
 

Adux

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The only difference between Paki nukes and ours is that our yield is going to be quite a lot more than Paki ones as we have heard from one of the nuke scientists that India is going to mount 200-250 KT warheads on our missiles.
So what about Chinese yield.
It is about total destructive power, India should equal or surpass the total destructive power of PakChin.
 

Yusuf

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So what about Chinese yield.It is about total destructive power, India should equal or surpass the total destructive power of PakChin.
Chinese nukes are also avg 250 KT.
 

Yusuf

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So what does that tell you about Indo-Pak situation, and your contention that we should call the Pakistani nuclear bluff. Anyways, There is a reason why USA and USSR went into thousands of Nuclear weapons. The same reason holds true for India v/s Pakchin.It is the same reason we talk about our massive unforgiving nuclear retaliation on somebody who drops a nuke on us! This is our national policy and strategy! Do we have the capacity of the above in terms of Pakchin. Answer is NO. Therefore we dont fulfill our own benchmark for defense.
We are talking about deterrence and yes it's the reason why we didn't go to war post 26/11. The reason why I say call their bluff is that I don't think they are actually going to use nukes at the drop of the hat. Every mad man has a method. Some pretend to be mad.
 

agentperry

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dont know what makes MoD guys sleep without fear. the borders are as lose as state borders. the infra problem will stop all the new 1 lakh soldiers from reaching the battlefield. inducting new soldiers and showy stuff while not preparing the base for them to play their due role is a big mistake and India will suffer big loses because of this shit.
 

ALBY

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dont know what makes MoD guys sleep without fear. the borders are as lose as state borders. the infra problem will stop all the new 1 lakh soldiers from reaching the battlefield. inducting new soldiers and showy stuff while not preparing the base for them to play their due role is a big mistake and India will suffer big loses because of this shit.
MOD will be sleepin coz we had builded worst roads which will not lead chinese army army reach our mainland...that would be thaeir trumpcard..and chinese had built good infrastructure which will help us if we are successfull in counter offensive to reach even shanghai:)
 

nrj

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Why you guys assume Indo-China war will boil down to nukes? Its a possibility but not the only possibility.

Any mushroom cloud in asia will ensure MAD scenario. India will not nuke Bejieng just because PLA invaded AP/JK nor China will launch nukes because India seizes PoK. Both sides have second strike capability.

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Army has very well pointed out its infra/technical/command gaps after Kargil & that is why Cold Start was initiated to plug what is 'not-ready-for-war'.

Rapidly increasing infra on Indian side by GOI without taking care of proper plans to guard will allow PLA to assume control of those bases in emergency & that will only help enemy to use Indian buildup to fight IA. It has been prime reason for delay. This was also one of the pointers after kargil.

No side is ever READY for war. One should read up recent Advanced Cold Start.
 

captonjohn

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Russia were not prepared when Hitler attacked on it, later Russia stormed Berlin.
England were not prepared when WWII broke out, later England were in victorious nations.

India were not prepared for war neither in 1948, 1965, nor 1971 but every time India proved that war is fought by weapons but victory chose the one who use his weapon better, faster, braver.

No country is always fully prepared for war, it time tells that who had real strengths and our strength is our people, our passion.

India is still not prepared for war, we may lag in advanced weaponry, we may lag in numbers but each time we have proved that high moral ground, better training and good strategy makes a war win that's why we survived till date and we will survive forever whether we are prepared or not but we will throw enemy out each time.
 

agentperry

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Russia were not prepared when Hitler attacked on it, later Russia stormed Berlin.
England were not prepared when WWII broke out, later England were in victorious nations.

India were not prepared for war neither in 1948, 1965, nor 1971 but every time India proved that war is fought by weapons but victory chose the one who use his weapon better, faster, braver.

No country is always fully prepared for war, it time tells that who had real strengths and our strength is our people, our passion.

India is still not prepared for war, we may lag in advanced weaponry, we may lag in numbers but each time we have proved that high moral ground, better training and good strategy makes a war win that's why we survived till date and we will survive forever whether we are prepared or not but we will throw enemy out each time.
in every case you specified there was a big guy out there to bail us or brits out. now every big guy is halal-ed and next big guys is our enemy.
 

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