Indian Army Looking for New Assualt Rifle!!!

[pmaitra]

Its a new derivative of the INSAS. 5.56 mm micro assault rifle, an automatic assault weapon designed for tactical response squads.

If I may add, it also has a shorter barrel as it is not intended for long range sniping but short range combat where lesser accuracy due to the shorter barrel is acceptable.

Another thing my 'friend', an employee at RFI, and I liked was the absence of the 'suitcase' carrying handle.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If IA going to replace INSAS by some other than, this is something i wish for..

SAR-21 P-RAIL

If I may add, it also has a shorter barrel as it is not intended for long range sniping but short range combat where lesser accuracy due to the shorter barrel is acceptable.

Another thing my 'friend', an employee at RFI, and I liked was the absence of the 'suitcase' carrying handle.

KALANTAK was meant to replace 9mm carbine from army,

KALANTAK was failed during tests, it get hot quickly and accuracy is poor compare to existing 9mm carbine in army..

Its not a PDW, MSMG is a PDW..

 

[Yatharth Singh]

If IA going to replace INSAS by some other than, this is something i wish for..

KALANTAK was meant to replace 9mm carbine from army,

KALANTAK was failed during tests, it get hot quickly and accuracy is poor compare to existing 9mm carbine in army..

Its not a PDW, MSMG is a PDW..

Sorry too interrupt sir but as far as i know then it was not Kalantak which failed during the test but it was Amogh and Ex-Caliber which failed during the tests. But still i would agree to you if you can clearify this by any reference.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sorry too interrupt sir but as far as i know then it was not Kalantak which failed during the test but it was Amogh and Ex-Caliber which failed during the tests. But still i would agree to you if you can clearify this by any reference.

Than i guess they are working on a newer version of KALANTAK..

 

[Logan]

If IA going to replace INSAS by some other than, this is something i wish for..

KALANTAK was meant to replace 9mm carbine from army,

KALANTAK was failed during tests, it get hot quickly and accuracy is poor compare to existing 9mm carbine in army..

Its not a PDW, MSMG is a PDW..

Kunal sir, would you please elaborate, why would you prefer a bullpup like SAR 21 because i think the HK416 and the Bushmaster ACR are better products though of a conventional design.
I guess i read somewhere the Kalantak was dropped as the bullet was too powerful for it's short barrel,over heating of the weapon & huge muzzle flash.The new weapon has been named as Multi Caliber Weapon as we all know,but i don't think it is an improvement over the Kalantak as kalantak did not have long range capabilities also i doubt that it could take a grenade launcher.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Kunal sir, would you please elaborate, why would you prefer a bullpup like SAR 21 because i think the HK416 and the Bushmaster ACR are better products though of a conventional design.

A Infantry Rifle is always consider better with longest barrel which gives better penetration and range..
SAR-21 PRAIL have more barrel length within small size of the rifle (Bull pup ) heres a comparision:

Heckler & Koch HK416:
D20RS: 1,037 mm (40.8 in) stock extended with full barrel length of 505mm..


Bushmaster ACR:
with stock deployed (mid) 40.8 in ( +1000mm ) with full barrel length of 508mm..

INSAS:
960 mm (37.8 in),464 mm (18.3 in)


Sar-21PRAIL:
805 mm (31.7 in) ( SAR 21 P-Rail), Barrel length 508 mm (20.0 in)


All of these rifle are rugged in rough different terrains, here COST analysis:

INSAS: 450USD
Bushmaster ACR: $2,685–$3,061.00
Heckler & Koch HK416: $1425
SAR-21:$991 ( 1/3 of TAR-21 unit price )

Buying in mass reduce price per unit..

I guess i read somewhere the Kalantak was dropped as the bullet was too powerful for it's short barrel,over heating of the weapon & huge muzzle flash.The new weapon has been named as Multi Caliber Weapon as we all know,but i don't think it is an improvement over the Kalantak as kalantak did not have long range capabilities also i doubt that it could take a grenade launcher.

As i mentioned before Kalantak was meant to replace 9mm carbine from army..
The Idea was is 5.56x45 round in both sub-machine gun and rifle and LMG..
GL can be mounted as the lower-grip is same as regular Insas..

 

[Logan]

@Kunal Sir - Would you please tell how the CZ 805 Bren A1 would compare against the other rifles,will it be a good choice and what is the cost per unit.It seems to be a descent gun but i think the barrel is much shorter.Also why not consider the SIG 556,it seems to be good enough although you would know well as you are a professional.

 

[Yatharth Singh]

I guess i read somewhere the Kalantak was dropped as the bullet was too powerful for it's short barrel,over heating of the weapon & huge muzzle flash.The new weapon has been named as Multi Caliber Weapon as we all know,but i don't think it is an improvement over the Kalantak as kalantak did not have long range capabilities also i doubt that it could take a grenade launcher.

Again it wasnt about Kalantak but it was about Amogh dear. Kalantak`s journey is going very well and it is undergoing through final trials.

 

[Yatharth Singh]

Guys why dont you understand that bullpups are not inferior in range or accuracy than the longer barrel rifles.
I know that longer barrel means longer accuracy but bullpups also have longer barrels which are extended till the end of rifle thus increasing the weight o rifle towards the butt.

Barrel length of Insas =462 mm
Barrel Length of Tavor = 460 mm

Effective range of Insas=450 m
Effective range of Tavor=550 m.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Kunal Sir - Would you please tell how the CZ 805 Bren A1 would compare against the other rifles,will it be a good choice and what is the cost per unit.It seems to be a descent gun but i think the barrel is much shorter.Also why not consider the SIG 556,it seems to be good enough although you would know well as you are a professional.

CZ have good impression on IA..

CZ-58 is famous in IA, CZ wepionary is cheap and relaibale..

Lets see how it will preform in tests, the test will be through out this year the winner will be chose at the end of 2011 more likely..

 

[Raj Malhotra]

IIRC the Amogh=MINSAS firing 5.56x30 failed the trials and has been rejected. More advanced design MSMC is being improved by DRDO and OFB for further evaluation by Army. This rifle falls under the category of close quater defensive carbines. It is likely to be adopted, me thinks.

As regards the offer for FINSAS. Army wants imported rifle/carbine/IAR=LMG. Army stopped DRDO from starting indigenous programme for almost 5-10 years but it seems to have been started now. The OFB offer seems to be Kalantak which seems like improved INSAS/Excaliber/Original INSAS carbine. I think it is doomed to rejection by the Army. DRDO has also launched its own programme whose information in public arena is still limited. Refer Ajai Shukla pics with posters behind him posted on this forum.


Added later- One of the major reasons for failure of INSAS carbine was burn profile of propellant for Indian 5.56x45 round. The propellant used to burn outside the short barrel producing barrel jump and flash. It is possible that new faster propellant has been development allowed the INSAS carbine to make a come back in the form of Kalantak.

 

[Neil]

@ Kunal sir...:: sir you have been saying that if we buy en mass than per unit price will come down.....but sir how can we buy en mass when are own indigenous rifle will arrive by 2011 i guess....??

also if we buy massive quantity of rifles than what guarantee we have that price will be reduced....??was TAR-21 price was reduced....??

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@ Kunal sir...:: sir you have been saying that if we buy en mass than per unit price will come down.....but sir how can we buy en mass when are own indigenous rifle will arrive by 2011 i guess....??

also if we buy massive quantity of rifles than what guarantee we have that price will be reduced....??was TAR-21 price was reduced....??

TAR-21 is a very expensive rifle its abt 1600usd or more as per Internet sources , I am sure the Cost must have negotiated before buying..

I know some thing abt F-INSAS rifle and i hope its better, Most probably it will be competing with other rifles in RFI, today is 1/1/2011, last date was yesterday..

 

[Logan]

Indian Army looks for multi caliber Infantry Assault Rifles for FINSAS


By 31 Dec 2010, Indian Army is expecting information on Infantry Assault Rifles from manufacturers. Indian Army is looking for a modern rifle for its F-INSAS programme. For the Integrated Sighting System, it is looking at the options of luminous tipped Flip-up iron sights, Holographic Sight / Reflex Sight, Visible Laser Target Pointer / Laser Illuminator and Telescopic Sight.

The rifle is expected to be required with Under Barrel Grenade Launcher (UBGL).

For keeping it light for the soldier, the rifle required is modular and should facilitate replacement of sub assemblies without the use of any specialist tools. IA is also asking is it can have multi caliber barrel change capability. The calibers it is looking at is (aa) 5.56 X 45mm, (ab) 7.62 X 39mm, (ac) 7.62 X 51mm, (ad) 6.8 X 43mm and (ae) 6.5 Grendel.

The rifle should be ambidextrous. It will make the weapon easy to use with either hands. The Picatinny Rails is being sought at 3 O'clock, 6 O'clock and 9 O'clock position in addition to the regular 12 O'clock position.

Other important aspects are flash suppressor, multipurpose bayonet attachment, trigger compatibility with cold climate gloves, types of butt stock, sling attachment points, multi point vertical forehand grip, construction, maintainability, range and safety.
http://frontierindia.net/indian-army-looks-for-multi-caliber-infantry-assault-rifles

 

[Logan]

I think this rules out the possibilities of most bullpup rifles as most of them do not have 3 O'clock & 9 O'clock pictanny rails.SAR 21 PRAIL or MMS(Modular Mounting System) do have 3 O'clock & 9 O'clock pictanny rails but does not have the grenade launcher option as the lower grip is not the same as SAR 21 standard version.Also i don't know of any modern bullpup rifle that has flip up iron sights,and most of them uses reflex sights or integrated 1.5x optical sight,pardon me if i am wrong.So i guess the army is considering a conventional design.
Also the DRDO bullpup rifle developed on the lines of FN F2000 does not provide pictanny rails on all positions as is apparent from the vague image.This brings me to think about another pic of a conventional rifle being developed by DRDO which hasn't been much talked about.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I think this rules out the possibilities of most bullpup rifles as most of them do not have 3 O'clock & 9 O'clock pictanny rails.SAR 21 PRAIL or MMS(Modular Mounting System) do have 3 O'clock & 9 O'clock pictanny rails but does not have the grenade launcher option as the lower grip is not the same as SAR 21 standard version.Also i don't know of any modern bullpup rifle that has flip up iron sights,and most of them uses reflex sights or integrated 1.5x optical sight,pardon me if i am wrong.So i guess the army is considering a conventional design.
Also the DRDO bullpup rifle developed on the lines of FN F2000 does not provide pictanny rails on all positions as is apparent from the vague image.This brings me to think about another pic of a conventional rifle being developed by DRDO which hasn't been much talked about.

Its strange that army is looking for FINSAS rifle?
Its the regular soldiers need better rifle..
their must be something wrong with the news or they assume its abt F-INSAS by reading only the barrel changing specifications..


SAR-21 PRAIL have every thing needed for user use, Its can be applied to any rifle with P-RAIL..

Flip up sights on FN-2000

Yes, Army can go for traditional deign as it used since 70s, But also bull-pup have a good chance as IA is still counts Tar-21 as the best assault rifle for its elites..

 

[Logan]

Its strange that army is looking for FINSAS rifle?
Its the regular soldiers need better rifle..
their must be something wrong with the news or they assume its abt F-INSAS by reading only the barrel changing specifications..


SAR-21 PRAIL have every thing needed for user use, Its can be applied to any rifle with P-RAIL..

Yes, Army can go for traditional deign as it used since 70s, But also bull-pup have a good chance as IA is still counts Tar-21 as the best assault rifle for its elites..

May be this whole confusion is being created as the complete info about the rifle procurement is being kept under covers by the army for whatever reasons.I do believe handing over modern rifles with hi-fi specifications to a handful of F-Insas soldiers wouldn't make any difference as there are enough special forces to deal with special situations.But the standard service rifle needs to be changed with or without such high end specifications.A standard ammo 5.56x45mm for most of the infantry and 7.62x39mm in lesser quantities is enough.I don't know what is going on in the minds of the officers but we do not need to show off,we need something good and effective that's it.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

CZ 805 Bren

 

[bhramos]

CZ 805 Bren

Good video.
but which one has more chances.............!!!!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Cant say for sure...