Indian Army for better frontline infrastructure

[sayareakd]

http://www.jncasic.com/en/showPro.asp?id=457

 

[pkroyal]

@pkroyal sir @Ray sir @Kunal bhai,I just want to ask whatckind of static defensive structures are presently set in place along the LAC??
I'm not asking for any detailed plans,just the kind of defensive structures-a.concrete pill boxes
or
b.sanghars made of stone and mud??

THANX.

A mix of fortified structures, at places depending on availability of local material and accessibility, there are stone & mud sangars, dug down,riveted with thick corrugated iron sheet roof bunkers with loop holes & at places concrete pill boxes have come up too.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Parrikar to focus on military infrastructure

Parrikar to focus on defence infrastructure

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Wednesday said he would prioritise logistics, infrastructure and indigenous procurement. Addressing a press conference, Mr. Parrikar said progress in defence deals had, over the last 10 years, become clogged due to scams and graft. "Henceforth, except in case of sophisticated equipment, my endeavour will be to promote Indian companies in procurements," said Mr. Parrikar.

Mr. Parrikar said he would visit the Eastern Border soon. He said he would seek to strengthen the capacities and capabilities of the defence forces and create an atmosphere of peace along the Line of Control.

The Army was a huge institution with large infrastructure spread across the length and breadth of the country, said the newly elected Defence Minister, stressing on optimal utilisation of the nearly 20 lakh hectares of land held by the Indian Army across the country. "I am aware of the fact that all facilities at the National Defence Academy need to be spruced up," Mr. Parrikar said.

Source : :: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

 

[JBH22]

Re: Parrikar to focus on military infrastructure

Any possibility of getting rid of "sangargh" and made room for proper pillboxes or bunkers?

 

[sgarg]

It is always best to construct with locally available materials. Army must be able to adapt. Army will be required to sustain and fight in unfamiliar areas.

Nothing wrong in building "sengars" etc. Trenches, "sengar" etc. are perfectly fine for shielding from direct fire.

The speed of construction is also a major issue.

 

[sgarg]

It is always best to construct with locally available materials. Army must be able to adapt. Army will be required to sustain and fight in unfamiliar areas.

Nothing wrong in building "sengars" etc. Trenches, "sengar" etc. are perfectly fine for shielding from direct fire.

The speed of construction is also a major issue.

 

[brational]

Pure Desi Bunkers

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Most of these local material don`t stand a chance against mortar fire, Their are many units at front-line living in Cardboard / Plywood quarters, Improvised Mud bunkers with tin shead and wooden log gates for years on now, Also some of these unit based are middle of Urban settlement where tangos are also among locals ..

These are dangerous times time, These placed better get concrete and well thought out infrastructure ..

Nothing wrong in building "sengars" etc. Trenches, "sengar" etc. are perfectly fine for shielding from direct fire..

 

[sgarg]

Most of these local material don`t stand a chance against mortar fire, Their are many units at front-line living in Cardboard / Plywood quarters, Improvised Mud bunkers with tin shead and wooden log gates for years on now, Also some of these unit based are middle of Urban settlement where tangos are also among locals ..

These are dangerous times time, These placed better get concrete and well thought out infrastructure ..

What is the purpose of these shelters? To protect from elements mostly (and to protect from rifle fire). Even a concrete shelter will not save from indirect fire. If the situation escalates, then open ground is better than the shelter as you can move on open ground. India will also use artillery and air power in response.

 

[Ray]

Most of these local material don`t stand a chance against mortar fire, Their are many units at front-line living in Cardboard / Plywood quarters, Improvised Mud bunkers with tin shead and wooden log gates for years on now, Also some of these unit based are middle of Urban settlement where tangos are also among locals ..

These are dangerous times time, These placed better get concrete and well thought out infrastructure ..

Bunkers are made for defences, where combat take place and not for areas where there is a Base.

In forward area bases, there are concrete emplacement for defence and normal living quarters.

I am sure in Srinagar where terrorists maybe there, you don't expect the JAK LI Centre to be all in bunkers.

What is the purpose of these shelters? To protect from elements mostly (and to protect from rifle fire). Even a concrete shelter will not save from indirect fire. If the situation escalates, then open ground is better than the shelter as you can move on open ground. India will also use artillery and air power in response.

Bunkers are not built to save troops from the 'elements'. It is for combat. In fact some bunkers are quite horrid to make it for 'living' - dark, musty and damp.

Bunkers not only provide protection from direct firing weapons, but also against artillery shells to include mediums.

If the situation escalates you don't go out in the open and scramble aimlessly. One must understand that there is a method in siting a defence.It is not a free for all.

 

[hit&run]

I always think why bunkers (concrete and 'saria' steel structures) can not be made in our cities as complete structure or in parts, transported to borders, air lifted (Helicopters) and placed where they are required. Soldiers may only require to dig the ground and assemble the parts together.

 

[Ray]

I always think why bunkers (concrete and 'saria' steel structures) can not be made in our cities as complete structure or in parts, transported to borders, air lifted (Helicopters) and placed where they are required. Soldiers may only require to dig the ground and assemble the parts together.

You are being most considerate and kind in your thought.

That is where you make the mistake. You cannot heiidrop a full structure on a pinnacle or even where there is a post since that is in the front line and can be intercepted by fire by the adversary. And counting the number of sorties, it will give a fair idea to the adversary as to how many defences have been erected. This, along with a reasoned guesstimate, will allow them to organise the combat ratio essential to take the post in the next round of war.

This is more applicable to the mountains and high altitude where helipads are limited and only for small helicopters or helidrops are not feasible for operational and flying reasons.

Each part of the bunker, the steel troughs and the hollow blocks, cement etc are carried up to impossible heights with impossible rarefied air by troop labour.

If only people realised what it is to prepare and engage in combat!

It is back breaking, unsung and unknown, lost in the fog of imagination and fantasy.

I am not being rude, I am merely feeling sad that the citizens do not know and the Army does not care to educate.

 

[sgarg]

@Ray, any ideas as you have the most direct knowledge of the situation. Is there any way to improve the situation?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, The places i mention are quite close to LOC and inner CT areas ..

In forward area bases, there are concrete emplacement for defense and normal living quarters..

=========

I am specific to CT areas, Terrorist do operate mortars and indirect aviation & Ground rockets ..

What is the purpose of these shelters? To protect from elements mostly (and to protect from rifle fire). Even a concrete shelter will not save from indirect fire. If the situation escalates, then open ground is better than the shelter as you can move on open ground. India will also use artillery and air power in response.

 

[hit&run]

You are being most considerate and kind in your thought.

That is where you make the mistake. You cannot heiidrop a full structure on a pinnacle or even where there is a post since that is in the front line and can be intercepted by fire by the adversary. And counting the number of sorties, it will give a fair idea to the adversary as to how many defences have been erected. This, along with a reasoned guesstimate, will allow them to organise the combat ratio essential to take the post in the next round of war.

This is more applicable to the mountains and high altitude where helipads are limited and only for small helicopters or helidrops are not feasible for operational and flying reasons.

Each part of the bunker, the steel troughs and the hollow blocks, cement etc are carried up to impossible heights with impossible rarefied air by troop labour.

If only people realised what it is to prepare and engage in combat!

It is back breaking, unsung and unknown, lost in the fog of imagination and fantasy.

I am not being rude, I am merely feeling sad that the citizens do not know and the Army does not care to educate.

Thanks Sir,

We learn more when an army man get pissed of us civilians.

If you can recall I asked your opinion on why we can not maintain Dault Beg Oldi like we have been maintaining and sustaining Siachin. So I have been quite considerate for such issues, Sir.

The point is, they already know where your current posts are, aren't they? The pictures we see and even couple of pictures you have been censorious about couple of months ago (where one of the solider was standing facing Pakistan border with knee height bulwark) are quite depressing to see soldiers guarding borders with minimum of protection.

Your concerns about keeping it low profile are right but all I begged was, the posts must be upgraded.

Keeping it low profile can not be an excuse to not upgrade our current posts on our own land; Chinese are doing; Pakistanis are doing it.

 

[Ray]

Sir, The places i mention are quite close to LOC and inner CT areas ..



=========

I am specific to CT areas, Terrorist do operate mortars and indirect aviation & Ground rockets ..

Yes, the troops in the rear area are billeted in areas where there is inhabitants.

Yes, the terrorists do use lethal weapons as mentioned by you.

Most of such billeting has a defensive layout that is tiered.

Notwithstanding, there are concrete emplacements also in the outer tier, even if the RP Gate may have an innocuous RP Post. Regular patrolling is also done, not only internally, but also outside and surveillance is maintained on the approaches. And yet, things can happen, mostly because of callousness or because such callousness is caused by being overworked in a charged environment that requires all to be alert 24 x 7, which is indeed a very heavy call.

It is not in the interest of the Army to give the impression that is 'protected' in fortified garrisons leaving the population to fend for themselves and hence these billeting do not give the impression of being dotted by concrete bunkers.

 

[Ray]

Thanks Sir,

We learn more when an army man get pissed of us civilians.

If you can recall I asked your opinion on why we can not maintain Dault Beg Oldi like we have been maintaining and sustaining Siachin. So I have been quite considerate for such issues, Sir.

The point is, they already know where your current posts are, aren't they? The pictures we see and even couple of pictures you have been censorious about couple of months ago (where one of the solider was standing facing Pakistan border with knee height bulwark) are quite depressing to see soldiers guarding borders with minimum of protection.

Your concerns about keeping it low profile are right but all I begged was, the posts must be upgraded.

Keeping it low profile can not be an excuse to not upgrade our current posts on our own land; Chinese are doing; Pakistanis are doing it.

What upgradation of bunkers have you in mind for our posts on the LC? Right now, the fortification allows it to absorb not only direct firing weapons but also medium artillery.

What are the Chinese doing? What are the Pakistanis doing? And how are we behind them in upgradation is what I am not able to understand.

***********************

Of course they know where the posts are, and may even know where the bunkers are (though that is dependant on the distance and the relative heights of the adversarial posts i.e ours and theirs) but they do not know what each bunker has. That is why even during 'stand to' you do not expose your weapon. In an attack, it is essential for the attacker to know where the automatics are sited since silencing them ensures less casualties and ensuring more bayonet strength to the objective end.

Sangars are constructed where the ground is totally rocky and can't be dug and these are linked with what is know as communication trenches that are but rock and stone walls used to ferry stores, and replenishment. The 'trenches' can also be used as fortification to take on the enemy.


Bunkers are double edged. While they give protection, they also makes you 'blind' i.e. your field of view is constricted by the aperture of the slit that is there to observe and also fire your weapon. Therefore, as the enemy closes on to you and the enemy artillery lifts owing to the safety distance restriction of such indirect weapons, some troops have to come out of the bunker for a better field of view and take the enemy on and defeat the attack.

Even when the ground is totally rocky, explosive are used to 'dig' an area where the bunker is constructed.

 

[Ray]

@Ray, any ideas as you have the most direct knowledge of the situation. Is there any way to improve the situation?

I have not understood the question.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, Conservation of fighting force and their moral is essential both in war and peace, if their are such false image being brought up by various malicious individual / organization / Group should be dealt with according to law ..

It will be a good step to mordernise Army infrastructure and Infantry to the edge, So that in future their may not be any fatalities due to ignorance of such issues ..

It is not in the interest of the Army to give the impression that is 'protected' in fortified garrisons leaving the population to fend for themselves and hence these billeting do not give the impression of being dotted by concrete bunkers.

 

[Ray]

Sir, Conservation of fighting force and their moral is essential both in war and peace, if their are such false image being brought up by various malicious individual / organization / Group should be dealt with according to law ..

It will be a good step to mordernise Army infrastructure and Infantry to the edge, So that in future their may not be any fatalities due to ignorance of such issues ..

Well then we could do a Sri Lanka and ensure the Conservation of fighting force and their moral is essential both in war and peace.

I agree with your contention since that is valid, but then if I may clarify and that is that One must realise that the Military is but an instrument of the Govt and it has to ensure that the Govt does not look as if it is, to use that idiot Ashoke Maitra's word, "Occupation Army".

Catch 22.