Indian Army at the mercy of arms dealers and lobbyists

[bengalraider]

Let me play the devil's advocate here again, the problem is not the arms dealers alone,but the system that has allowed these men to flourish. we have been purchasing arms from privately owned firms around the world while denying our own domestic manufacturers to make small arms. and this monopoly has led to a lethargy in the entire arms development gamut and more importantly the defense PSU's. INSAS is a great rifle and pretty well designed to boot but it suffers from manufacturing defects due to shoddy supervision and quality control at Icchapore and other factories. what needs to be done is building a domestic small arms industry with multiple players and then only then shall we be able to contain arms agents, i do not say we shall be able to do away with them completely not yet!

 

[Hari Sud]

Let me play the devil's advocate here again, the problem is not the arms dealers alone,but the system that has allowed these men to flourish. we have been purchasing arms from privately owned firms around the world while denying our own domestic manufacturers to make small arms. and this monopoly has led to a lethargy in the entire arms development gamut and more importantly the defense PSU's. INSAS is a great rifle and pretty well designed to boot but it suffers from manufacturing defects due to shoddy supervision and quality control at Icchapore and other factories. what needs to be done is building a domestic small arms industry with multiple players and then only then shall we be able to contain arms agents, i do not say we shall be able to do away with them completely not yet!

Very good points.

I still wish to disagree with one of the posts above i.e. that bayonet charge is a thing of the past. Not true at all.

The US army had to supply special knives to the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan because at times the soldiers there found themselves at a disadvantage while facing a persisting enemy platoon. US officers would not risk their own casualities relied on helicopters to come and do the job for them, which a rifleman could do (of course with casualities). In urban warfare the collateral damage by helicopter gunships firing rockets is tremendous. It happened in Falluja in Iraq.

The sight of an approaching knife is so fearsome that the enemy simply surrenders. One Sepoy Udham Singh in 1962 bayoneted five Chinese. After that, Chinese would keep a distance from the Indian posts and fire their "Burp Gun" from good 50 yards. The latter tactic won them the day but fear of the bayonet charge from Indian soldiers remained in their head for a long time. (incidentally Burp Gun did not have a bayonet. So also no bayonet on these sexy looking rifles with glossy borchure from many western gun salesmen).

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[ALBY]

Why couldn't drdo consider the option of a joint venture to produce small arms with a reputed arms manufacturer like Hk,ishmaz,or colt?That will solve almost all the allegations faced by the products of drdo concerning reliability and finish, also it will boost up the international sales beyond
Nepal or bhutan also.

 

[shafiq alam]

I think its a shame that Indian Army is trying to replace INSAS rifle. I think the top brass should look at the example of British Army, And take take help from H&K, SIG OR even Baretta to further Improve INSAS further. If they want to cut cut through the bureaucracy and bad manufacturing quality of the OFB and MOD the contract for JV and modification can be awarded to some PVT firm like TATA or Mahindra for , that would inturn would also speed up the process and would save a lot of money which can be utilized in other necessary procurement.

 

[DaTang]

And look at INSAS...

So many issues and voice against it, Ground Solider find them reliable and better but Media defames it spread lies and disinformation..

Even they have agents in force for spreading disinformation..

Your non rupee news seems have a quite opposite view though, even I appreciate your insist on supporting domestic product.

Indian 'AK-47' too fast for its own good - Times Of India

 

[bengalraider]

Why couldn't drdo consider the option of a joint venture to produce small arms with a reputed arms manufacturer like Hk,ishmaz,or colt?That will solve almost all the allegations faced by the products of drdo concerning reliability and finish, also it will boost up the international sales beyond
Nepal or bhutan also.

Because the DRDO has no sanction to produce weapons systems, it is mandated only as a research agency. production is to be handled by the defence PSU's . however DRDO may cooperate with another firm for a joint development aka Brahmos!

 

[no smoking]

INSAS is a pretty good weapon.

But then there is always the clamour for better and better but none in the world can ever achieve the best!

And so there will be those who will always debunk anything in hand and look around for something in the bush.

If INSAS is a pretty good weapon, was its india producer invited to bid for the next rifle?

 

[AshutoshNSingh]

In December, the Indian Army will test assault rifles from five foreign firms in a Rs.2,500-crore contract to buy a new rifle. The contract is crucial because it will decide the weapon that nearly 1.2 million infantrymen in the world's second largest army will carry for the next two decades. When the Army announced the tender in November 2011, it electrified the global arms industry. Besides the initial order of 65,678 Multi Caliber Assault Rifles (MCAR), the tender also calls for licence production of over 100,000 rifles in Indian ordnance factories, taking the deal to over $1 billion (Rs.5,500 crore). It is, officially, the world's largest small arms procurement in recent times.
Gun manufacturers in Russia, US, Europe and Israel took notice. In Delhi, arms agents began calculating the commissions from the deal-between Rs.100 crore and Rs.250 crore-nothing compared to other scams, but a substantial sum nevertheless.


ndian Army at the mercy of shadowy arms dealers, lobbyists : The Big Story - India Today

Had posted this on Indian Army Begins Trials For Assault Rifles thread when the article was fresh, but failed to draw any attention.

 

[pmaitra]

Kunal just read the first paragraph of the story. Isn't tells that the testing is gonna to start in the month of december?Also the report states that FN And Hk didn't even applied citing that the deal had been almost fixed for berettas even before testing and selection tests will be a mockery just like it had happened in the case of selection of Bulgarian akms instead of superior ak103 for crpf during NDA rule in 2004.

I am not surprised at all that FN and HK have not even applied. Many arms deals are suspect, and to me appear to have been pre-concluded keeping political considerations or graft in mind. Technical evaluations are ignored, because they are just a ritualistic necessity to show the public how 'transparent' the system is.

With every passing day, I am losing faith with MoD and military top brass.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

What we are probably getting may be degraded than INSAS..

 

[sayareakd]

What we are probably getting may be degraded than INSAS..

kunal sir is right, good example is this

video here
| Video | BSF jawans given defective guns | India Videos | - India Today

Italian arms major Beretta has agreed to replace faulty weapons supplied by them after they failed at a BSF test fire facility in Gujarat recently.

Last year, the BSF had awarded Beretta a contract of more than 30,000 sub-machine guns at an approximate cost of Rs.200 crore. The first consignment of 17,000 guns was received last September and distributed among BSF personnel on the border to replace INSAS and other rifles.

But documents accessed by Headlines Today suggest there was a major goof-up in the procurement of the consignment. The high- tech MX4 9mm Storm assault rifle failed the test, internal correspondence between the BSF's Gujarat frontier unit to the Delhi-based BSF Headquarters in January. It says that when the sample weapon was test fired, it bulged.

The test fire report suggests that the gun would not only be ineffective in neutralising the enemy, but there are also chances of the barrel of the weapon exploding and causing serious injuries. The document also noted other defects in the sample weapon.

Having discovered the shortcomings during test fire, the BSF's Gujarat frontier unit had sought advice from its headquarters on whether they should dump the weapons.When BSF Headquarters received this communication, senior officers summoned officials from Beretta.

The documents also suggest other serious problems with these guns. Corrosion was found on 113 guns. 164 guns had tool marks and nine guns had machining rings.

When BSF officers informed the arms firm, Beretta had sent a team of experts. BSF DIG Vikas Chandra said Beretta officials visited the test facility in Gujarat and examined the weapons in question. The experts noted what was suspected to be corrosion was lead residue. The officials, however, promised to replace the defective weapons.

Chandra said defects had been noted only from the Gujarat sector so far.

But the question that arises is how the BSF provisioning unit failed to spot the defects. Last year, a DIG- level officer along with his team had visited Italy to clear the consignment. The elite SPG force had also imported the same guns recently, but there were no shortcomings in their consignment.Chandra said it wasn't possible to check each weapon at the time of clearance and if defects are found even at a later stage, corrective steps will be taken.

Faulty weapons worth Rs 200 crore given to BSF jawans : North, News - India Today


funny part is that where as INSAS cost about 25000/- this carbine costs about 66,667/- and that too not up to mark.

 

[pmaitra]

If INSAS is a pretty good weapon, was its india producer invited to bid for the next rifle?

OFB does not peddle. It makes rifles as per requirements.

• OFB: If there is a need, create the product.
• Private Manufacturers: If there is a product, create the need. (oftentimes)

OFB products do not look 'cool' and 'trendy,' but they get the job done, and pretty damn well too. It's not only these days, but even back in the day, the OFB made 7.62mm NATO SMLEs, many of which have been surplussed and landed in the US, have earned a good reputation.

The only area where OFB lags behind is the finesse and looks of the products.

 

[ALBY]

Iam currently reading the book" tehelka .com's operation west end" which exposes the shady defence deals in the late 1990s and early 2000s mainly during previous NDA regime. It depicts how barack system from Israel was inducted eventhough APJ abdul kalam was against it in favour of indegeniously developed TRIshul missiles and also about the kickbacks received after the selection of T90s and Su30s. The book even sarcastically tells that during that time in MOD there was two ministers ;fernandes and his soulmate jaya jaitley

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Ugghh.. just wrote an exam on projectile dynamics. I'm sick of the stupid Imperial system... Americans should switch to metric already. It is ridiculous having to remember multiple unit conventions.

Metric System Still Has Loyal Supporters in the U.S. - WSJ.com

 

[sasi]

Iam currently reading the book" tehelka .com's operation west end" which exposes the shady defence deals in the late 1990s and early 2000s mainly during previous NDA regime. It depicts how barack system from Israel was inducted eventhough APJ abdul kalam was against it in favour of indegeniously developed TRIshul missiles and also about the kickbacks received after the selection of T90s and Su30s. The book even sarcastically tells that during that time in MOD there was two ministers ;fernandes and his soulmate jaya jaitley

They will not wrote abt congress shady deals from nehru's 1948 jeep deal to augtawest heli deal of 2010.