Indian Army at the mercy of arms dealers and lobbyists

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by ALBY, Oct 24, 2012.

  1. ALBY

    ALBY Elite Member Elite Member

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    In December, the Indian Army will test assault rifles from five foreign firms in a Rs.2,500-crore contract to buy a new rifle. The contract is crucial because it will decide the weapon that nearly 1.2 million infantrymen in the world's second largest army will carry for the next two decades. When the Army announced the tender in November 2011, it electrified the global arms industry. Besides the initial order of 65,678 Multi Caliber Assault Rifles (MCAR), the tender also calls for licence production of over 100,000 rifles in Indian ordnance factories, taking the deal to over $1 billion (Rs.5,500 crore). It is, officially, the world's largest small arms procurement in recent times.
    Gun manufacturers in Russia, US, Europe and Israel took notice. In Delhi, arms agents began calculating the commissions from the deal-between Rs.100 crore and Rs.250 crore-nothing compared to other scams, but a substantial sum nevertheless.


    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/billion-dollar-arms-deal-in-army-gun-manufacturers/1/221665.html
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
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  3. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Thanks for sharing..
     
  4. ALBY

    ALBY Elite Member Elite Member

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    I always strongly believed that selection of berettas and bulgarian akms and x95s were not through a right manner after proper evaluation .And now the proof had been out.It is utterly disgusting those companies are selectedd who gives the maximum amount of money to the officias annd netas.Here the military top brass is equally guilt as the politiicians are.
     
  5. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    And look at INSAS...

    So many issues and voice against it, Ground Solider find them reliable and better but Media defames it spread lies and disinformation..

    Even they have agents in force for spreading disinformation..
     
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  6. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    That is too much of hallucination !
     
  7. satish007

    satish007 Senior Member Senior Member

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    :cry:, Chinese manufacturers is not invited, China has M16 China version, 1/4 price and qulity is ok. and also has all kinds of AK47/74 China edition.
    No license issue at all.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  8. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Well, if Tejinder Singh's case is proved, then it will be a reality and that too at high echelons!
     
  9. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    INSAS is a pretty good weapon.

    But then there is always the clamour for better and better but none in the world can ever achieve the best!

    And so there will be those who will always debunk anything in hand and look around for something in the bush.
     
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  10. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Qualities that a good assault rifle must have:

    a) weight
    b) compactness
    c) reliability
    d) rate of fire
    e) muzzle velocity and 'stopping power'
    f) effective range
    g) caliber
    h) magazine capacity

    Also

    read this on Internal Ballistics

    Internal Ballistics

    Ballistics

    The term ballistics refers to the science of the travel of a projectile in flight. The flight path of a bullet includes: travel down the barrel, path through the air, and path through a target. The wounding potential of projectiles is a complex matter. (Fackler, 1996)

    Internal, or initial ballistics (within the gun)

    Bullets fired from a rifle will have more energy than similar bullets fired from a handgun. More powder can also be used in rifle cartridges because the bullet chambers can be designed to withstand greater pressures (50,000 to 70,000 for rifles psi vs. 30,000 to 40,000 psi for handgun chamber). Higher pressures require a bigger gun with more recoil that is slower to load and generates more heat that produces more wear on the metal. It is difficult in practice to measure the forces within a gun barrel, but the one easily measured parameter is the velocity with which the bullet exits the barrel (muzzle velocity) and this measurement will be used in examples below. (Bruner et al, 2011)

    The controlled expansion of gases from burning gunpowder generates pressure (force/area). The area here is the base of the bullet (equivalent to diameter of barrel) and is a constant. Therefore, the energy transmitted to the bullet (with a given mass) will depend upon mass times force times the time interval over which the force is applied. The last of these factors is a function of barrel length. Bullet travel through a gun barrel is characterized by increasing acceleration as the expanding gases push on it, but decreasing pressure in the barrel as the gas expands. Up to a point of diminishing pressure, the longer the barrel, the greater the acceleration of the bullet. (Volgas, Stannard and Alonso, 2005)

    [​IMG]

    As the bullet traverses the barrel of the gun, some minor deformation occurs, called setback deformation. This results from minor (rarely major) imperfections or variations in rifling or tool marks within the barrel. The effect upon the subsequent flight path of the bullet is usually insignificant. (Jandial et al, 2008)

    External ballistics (from gun to target)

    The external ballistics of a bullet's path can be determined by several formulae, the simplest of which is:

    Kinetic Energy (KE) = 1/2 MV2

    Velocity (V) is usually given in feet per second (fps) and mass (M) is given in pounds, derived from the weight (W) of the bullet in grains, divided by 7000 grains per pound times the acceleration of gravity (32 ft/sec) so that:

    Kinetic Energy (KE) = W(V)2 / (450,435) ft/lb

    This is the bullet's energy as it leaves the muzzle, but the ballistic coefficient (BC) will determine the amount of KE delivered to the target as air resistance is encountered.

    Forward motion of the bullet is also affected by drag (D), which is calculated as:

    Drag (D) = f(v/a)k&pd2v2

    f(v/a) is a coefficient related to the ratio of the velocity of the bullet to the velocity of sound in the medium through which it travels. k is a constant for the shape of the bullet and & is a constant for yaw (deviation from linear flight). p is the density of the medium (tissue density is >800 times that of air), d is the diameter (caliber) of the bullet, and v the velocity. Thus, greater velocity, greater caliber, or denser tissue gives more drag. The degree to which a bullet is slowed by drag is called retardation (r) given by the formula:

    r = D / M

    Drag is difficult to measure, so the Ballistic Coefficient (BC) is often used:

    BC = SD / I

    SD is the sectional density of the bullet, and I is a form factor for the bullet shape. Sectional density is calculated from the bullet mass (M) divided by the square of its diameter. The form factor value I decreases with increasing pointedness of the bullet (a sphere would have the highest I value).

    Since drag (D) is a function of velocity, it can be seen that for a bullet of a given mass (M), the greater the velocity, the greater the retardation. Drag is also influenced by bullet spin. The faster the spin, the less likely a bullet will "yaw" or turn sideways and tumble in its flight path through the air. Thus, increasing the twist of the rifling from 1 in 7 will impart greater spin than the typical 1 in 12 spiral (one turn in 12 inches of barrel).

    [​IMG]

    Bullets do not typically follow a straight line to the target. Rotational forces are in effect that keep the bullet off a straight axis of flight. These rotational effects are diagrammed below:


    [​IMG]

    Yaw refers to the rotation of the nose of the bullet away from the line of flight. Precession refers to rotation of the bullet around the center of mass. Nutation refers to small circular movement at the bullet tip. Yaw and precession decrease as the distance of the bullet from the barrel increases.

    What do all these formulae mean in terms of designing cartridges and bullets? Well, given that a cartridge can be only so large to fit in a chamber, and given that the steel of the chamber can handle only so much pressure from increasing the amount of gunpowder, the kinetic energy for any given weapon is increased more easily by increasing bullet mass. Though the square of the velocity would increase KE much more, it is practically very difficult to increase velocity, which is dependent upon the amount of gunpowder burned. There is only so much gunpowder that can burned efficiently in a cartridge. Thus, cartridges designed for hunting big game animals use very large bullets.

    To reduce air resistance, the ideal bullet would be a long, heavy needle, but such a projectile would go right through the target without dispersing much of its energy. Light spheres would be retarded the greatest within tissues and release more energy, but might not even get to the target. A good aerodynamic compromise bullet shape is a parbolic curve with low frontal area and wind-splitting shape. The best bullet composition is lead (Pb) which is of high density and is cheap to obtain. Its disadvantages are a tendency to soften at velocities >1000 fps, causing it to smear the barrel and decrease accuracy, and >2000 fps lead tends to melt completely. Alloying the lead (Pb) with a small amount of antimony (Sb) helps, but the real answer is to interface the lead bullet with the hard steel barrel through another metal soft enough to seal the bullet in the barrel but of high melting point. Copper (Cu) works best as this "jacket" material for lead.

    Terminal ballistics (hitting the target)

    Yaw has a lot to do with the injury pattern of a bullet on the target, termed "terminal ballistics." A short, high velocity bullet begins to yaw more severely and turn, and even rotate, upon entering tissue. This causes more tissue to be displaced, increases drag, and imparts more of the KE to the target. A longer, heavier bullet might have more KE at a longer range when it hits the target, but it may penetrate so well that it exits the target with much of its KE remaining. Even a bullet with a low KE can impart significant tissue damage if it can be designed to give up all of the KE into the target, and the target is at short range (as with handguns). Despite yaw, an intact bullet that comes to rest in tissue generally has its long axis aligned along the path of the bullet track, though its final position may be either nose forward or base forward. (Jandial et al, 2008)

    [​IMG]

    Bullets produce tissue damage in three ways (Adams, 1982):

    Laceration and crushing - Tissue damage through laceration and crushing occurs along the path or "track" through the body that a projectile, or its fragments, may produce.

    Cavitation - A "permanent" cavity is caused by the path (track) of the bullet itself with crushing of tissue, whereas a "temporary" cavity is formed by radial stretching around the bullet track from continued acceleration of the medium (air or tissue) in the wake of the bullet, causing the wound cavity to be stretched outward. For projectiles traveling at low velocity the permanent and temporary cavities are nearly the same, but at high velocity and with bullet yaw the temporary cavity becomes larger (Maiden, 2009).

    Shock waves - Shock waves compress the medium and travel ahead of the bullet, as well as to the sides, but these waves last only a few microseconds and do not cause profound destruction at low velocity. At high velocity, generated shock waves can reach up to 200 atmospheres of pressure. (DiMaio and Zumwalt, 1977) However, bone fracture from cavitation is an extremely rare event. (Fackler, 1996) The ballistic pressure wave from distant bullet impact can induce a concussive-like effect in humans, causing acute neurological symptoms. (Courtney and Courtney, 2007)

    The mathematics of wound ballistics, in reference to yaw of unstable projectiles, has been described. The model works well for non-deformable bullets. (Peters et al, 1996)(Peters and Sebourn, 1996)

    Experimental methods to demonstrate tissue damage have utilized materials with characteristics similar to human soft tissues and skin. Pigskin has been employed to provide an external layer to blocks of compounds such as ordnance gelatin or ballistic soap. Firing of bullets into these materials at various ranges is followed by direct visual inspection (cutting the block) or radiographic analysis (CT imaging) to determine the sizes and appearances of the cavity produced (Rutty, et al, 2007).

    The following images illustrate bullet deformation and damage:

    Bullet track in clay model, gross
    Deformed bullet recovered from shooting victim, gross
    Bullet velocity and mass will affect the nature of wounding. Velocity is classified as low (<1000 fps), medium (1000 to 2000 fps), and high (>2000 fps). (Wilson, 1977) An M-16 rifle (.223 cal) is designed to produce larger wounds with high velocity, lower mass bullets that tumble, cavitate, and release energy quickly upon striking the target. A hunting rifle (.308 cal or greater) would have a larger mass bullet to penetrate a greater depth to kill a large game animal at a longer distance.

    Bullet design is important in wounding potential. The Hague Convention of 1899 (and subsequently the Geneva Convention) forbade the use of expanding, deformable bullets in wartime. Therefore, military bullets have full metal jackets around the lead core. Of course, the treaty had less to do with compliance than the fact that modern military assault rifles fire projectiles at high velocity (>2000 fps) and the bullets need to be jacketed with copper, because the lead begins to melt from heat generated at speeds >2000 fps.

    Bullet shapes are diagrammed below:

    [​IMG]

    The distance of the target from the muzzle plays a large role in wounding capacity, for most bullets fired from handguns have lost significant kinetic energy (KE) at 100 yards, while high-velocity military .308 rounds still have considerable KE even at 500 yards. Military and hunting rifles are designed to deliver bullets with more KE at a greater distance than are handguns and shotguns.

    The type of tissue affects wounding potential, as well as the depth of penetration. (Bartlett, 2003) Specific gravity (density) and elasticity are the major tissue factors. The higher the specific gravity, the greater the damage. The greater the elasticity, the less the damage. Thus, lung tissue of low density and high elasticity is damaged less than muscle with higher density but some elasticity. Liver, spleen, and brain have no elasticity and are easily injured, as is adipose tissue. Fluid-filled organs (bladder, heart, great vessels, bowel) can burst because of pressure waves generated. A bullet striking bone may cause fragmentation of bone and/or bullet, with numerous secondary missiles formed, each producing additional wounding.

    The speed at which a projectile must travel to penetrate skin is 163 fps and to break bone is 213 fps, both of which are quite low, so other factors are more important in producing damage. (Belkin, 1978)

    Designing a bullet for efficient transfer of energy to a particular target is not straightforward, for targets differ. To penetrate the thick hide and tough bone of an elephant, the bullet must be pointed, of small diameter, and durable enough to resist disintegration. However, such a bullet would penetrate most human tissues like a spear, doing little more damage than a knife wound. A bullet designed to damage human tissues would need some sort of "brakes" so that all the KE was transmitted to the target.

    It is easier to design features that aid deceleration of a larger, slower moving bullet in tissues than a small, high velocity bullet. Such measures include shape modifications like round (round nose), flattened (wadcutter), or cupped (hollowpoint) bullet nose. Round nose bullets provide the least braking, are usually jacketed, and are useful mostly in low velocity handguns. The wadcutter design provides the most braking from shape alone, is not jacketed, and is used in low velocity handguns (often for target practice). A semi-wadcutter design is intermediate between the round nose and wadcutter and is useful at medium velocity. Hollowpoint bullet design facilitates turning the bullet "inside out" and flattening the front, referred to as "expansion." Expansion reliably occurs only at velocities exceeding 1200 fps, so is suited only to the highest velocity handguns.

    More at:

    FIREARMS TUTORIAL
     
  11. Tronic

    Tronic Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    When even India can make the same, why would we buy from China? Chinese quality is no better than Indian quality.
     
  12. Tronic

    Tronic Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Ugghh.. just wrote an exam on projectile dynamics. I'm sick of the stupid Imperial system... Americans should switch to metric already. It is ridiculous having to remember multiple unit conventions.
     
  13. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Sir, That is indeed..

    But the way things are going, I just dont see that as progress..

    For example, People are jumping for multi-caliber Rifle, A Simple Insas can be re-chambered for other rounds, Without much change but no where no one talks abt it..

    There is quality issue ( Presently there are none ) but no one talks about its solution but dragging the problems only, No one talks Pvt sector about this..

    Insas is already a wonderful Rifle and it wont take time ( Less than a day ) to enhance its handling by many parts available in market, But we are looking at new platform, Which is probability worst that Insas in many ways..

    Insas Rifle which takes less than 20mins for A-Z cleaning, It is very accurate with it longer barrel and better Iron Sights and battle proven in both conventional and CT ops, We are replacing it with an platform that is high on PR and low on Ground..

    And there are many within Army Question my view, And they do show me that this is American SCAR, French etc tell me if you fire these you will forget INSAS, But when i asked them do the fire it or know about it except pictures and utube vids they remain Quite..
     
  14. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    It is the glossies that prompt the GSQRs!
     
  15. ALBY

    ALBY Elite Member Elite Member

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    Is buying a multi cal rifle worth 2 lakh make the changes worth that much or will a single rifle will guarantee the same level of performance given by a bren,svd,ak or insas.It could be true that we could fire different ammo from a single weapon by just switching the barrells but will it give the same or better performance given by a sniper ,assault rifle or light machine gun?To be specific tolerence levels of all the three of these are different and expected accuracy of these are also different.I wonder how a multi cal can stood upto the expectations.Also military experts are pointing about the logistic issues and burden oon ordinary soldiers.
    Even the americans who operates in all the continents except antartica didn't find multiicals worth the money it cost.So thats why seals army and marines still uses M4s or hk416 as their workhorses even though scars are with rangers and seals.

    I remember kunal mentioning about an official hinting that berettas had been almost selected as the multi cal rifles foor army.The interesting ppart is that IA hadn't even started preliminary trials:)
     
  16. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Are you sure trails are not even started ? we are suppose to know the winner this dec only..

     
  17. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    It was supposed to have happened years ago.

    Metrication in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
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  18. Tronic

    Tronic Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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  19. ALBY

    ALBY Elite Member Elite Member

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    Kunal just read the first paragraph of the story. Isn't tells that the testing is gonna to start in the month of december?Also the report states that FN And Hk didn't even applied citing that the deal had been almost fixed for berettas even before testing and selection tests will be a mockery just like it had happened in the case of selection of Bulgarian akms instead of superior ak103 for crpf during NDA rule in 2004.
     
  20. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    I am not sure how accurate that is, If you see the specs in RFI its very complex its possible FN & HK never had such a Rifle..
    Only crez republic bren and berrata have what written in RFI..


    Selection of Bulgarian AK can be for various reasons..

    1. Common spare with other AK

    2. Price tag compare to AK103

    3. License Production also Modification as per Indian needs..



    I heard about AK-103 production by OFB but there were no news afterwards, Something didn't materialized just like zittra..
    Most Countries dont allow there top tech weapon system tot transfer including small systems like Rifle..
     
  21. ALBY

    ALBY Elite Member Elite Member

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    I too had similar doubts about the sigs claim about multi cals coz I only knew about sig550series which as AFAIK are not in that league.After all what is the hurry for such a weapon.Its true that these are the future weapons but at this time there are only 2 weapons whuch could fire all these type of ammunition(heard only about scar-l and scarh models but not about models that could fire m43or 6.8mm).Lets give the acquisition programme for hold for a couple of years till some more models to be rolled out so that we could choose the best.ishmaz and polish had nearly completed the work .Plus our aks and insas are not that much obsolete neiher old.Let's wait till we could choose from a lot of goodies at bargained price. Considering the case of akms I had read the tehelka article which clearly states that ak103s lag behind only in one parameter that was length which was due to the unique krinkov brake and in all other 15 parameters it had beaten
    the Bulgarian.Considering the prices it also states that initial prices put up by all the three firms were very high and final price was negotiated to be 6500 per folding piece and 6000 for fixed.But this was done after the elimination of Russian and Romanian models.This issue had rocked the parliament for some days in that time.
    Considering licensed production AFAIK we are still importing them in thousands.
    Any way the elite Marcos went in favor of Russian ones and later tavors.
     

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