Indian Army Artillery

[Chinmoy]

@Kunal Biswas @Vijyes Guys what i'm talking about is not about single gun or a battery or something else.
What i'm talking about is first target acquisition by laser ranger finder like press of a button the co-ordinates of the enemy position should be sent to near by artillery battery and they computer automatically calculates the angle of gun and charge to be loaded without the human intervention.

Have you ever used a GPS???? I am talking about real GPS, not the app here.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

These British 5.5 inch guns were used to be backbone of Indian Army and seen 62, 65 and 71 war, After arrival of 105mm IFG these were phased out and kept for static display or Museum pieces ..

Photo taken by me at Chindimandir Command hospital ..

 

[Vijyes]

@Kunal Biswas @Vijyes Guys what i'm talking about is not about single gun or a battery or something else.
What i'm talking about is first target acquisition by laser ranger finder like press of a button the co-ordinates of the enemy position should be sent to near by artillery battery and they computer automatically calculates the angle of gun and charge to be loaded without the human intervention.

Coordinates of enemy can be found out only by spy-jets or spotters or satellites or other similar reconnaissance equipment. From where else should one get such information of mobile enemy? Once we get that, sat-com is used to tell that to the ground team. Using GPS, the team gets their own location and then using topography map, they get altitude of theirs as well as enemy location. Then adjust the gun manually and fire.

Laser finder is absurd as the battle may be on rugged/hilly area. From where will you point lasers? Automatic elevation and direction setting is just complicating things. Electronic items are notorious for failing at wrong moment. Never trust electronics when your life depends on them. Also, keeping engine on needs huge fuel supply- a big no. Compasses aren't that accurate too.

Artillery is fired not for accuracy but for relentless barrage of shells to terrorise enemy from moving forward. So, hundreds of the guns are needed together. 1 artillery is as good as none. One can't afford hundreds of guns with complex electronics that can fail and having such huge fuel needs

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Laser range finder is used in direct firing mode, Mostly incorporated with FCS of tanks ..

 

[tharun]

Have you ever used a GPS???? I am talking about real GPS, not the app here.

Nope but seen in the company lab used for R&D.

 

[tharun]

I'm talking about LISA hand held target acquisition and observation.
We need to get rid of these human intervention.

 

[tharun]

Coordinates of enemy can be found out only by spy-jets or spotters or satellites or other similar reconnaissance equipment. From where else should one get such information of mobile enemy? Once we get that, sat-com is used to tell that to the ground team. Using GPS, the team gets their own location and then using topography map, they get altitude of theirs as well as enemy location. Then adjust the gun manually and fire.

Laser finder is absurd as the battle may be on rugged/hilly area. From where will you point lasers? Automatic elevation and direction setting is just complicating things. Electronic items are notorious for failing at wrong moment. Never trust electronics when your life depends on them. Also, keeping engine on needs huge fuel supply- a big no. Compasses aren't that accurate too.

Artillery is fired not for accuracy but for relentless barrage of shells to terrorise enemy from moving forward. So, hundreds of the guns are needed together. 1 artillery is as good as none. One can't afford hundreds of guns with complex electronics that can fail and having such huge fuel needs

I'm tired of giving replies to your bullshit.

 

[Vijyes]

I'm tired of giving replies to your bullshit.

These devices have range of only 4km and are not usable for 40+km artillery round fire directly by crew of howitzer. That is what spotters use to find targets. But conveying of coordinates is via sat-com (satellite communication device) and not direct push from the lisa device. How many times should i say?

For god's sake communicate properly. Else, you will piss people off

 

[Vijyes]

I'm tired of giving replies to your bullshit.

These devices have range of only 4km and are not usable for 40+km artillery round fire directly by crew of howitzer. That is what spotters use to find targets. But conveying of coordinates is via sat-com (satellite communication device) and not direct push from the lisa device. How many times should i say?

For god's sake communicate properly. Else, you will piss people off

 

[Adioz]

Artillery isn't the 1st wave of attack but only for limited ground wars. Full scale wars need missile strike, aerial bombing and only later after ground invasion, artillery is used for consolidating one's hold and prevent enemy from advancing. Artillery is the weapon that is fired the most because it is cheap, not because they are extremely powerful weapons. Mao's motto: 'Quantity has a quality of its own' is the driving force behind artillery.

Artillery is not meant for accurate targeting. it is for laying huge barrage of fire to prevent enemy from advancing. Artillery s a cheap means of firing and is neither powerful nor accurate but a cheap shots at enemy position. Using automation will make it expensive & unreliable due to high chances of engine burnout, fuel supply problem in the middle of war and so on. With GPS/irnss, location acquiring is accurate to a good extent anyways. Manpower requirement of artillery is 4 but they keep 5 to cycle shift. Also, artillery needs 1 trained man while others can be ignoramus just obeying the experienced guy. Even this isn't a problem as artillery is a defensive weapon which needs an area to be clear first & hence require large troop presence anyways.

Considering the role it has, automation will cause serious issues in economy, issues in fuel supply and defeat the purpose of Artillery.

That is such BS.

How many regiments of Brahmos do we have deployed/plan to deploy? AFAIK 4-5
How many regiments of Pinaka do we plan to deploy? 22
How many regiments of towed artillery do we have deployed/plan to deploy? ~200

We have a very large front manned by a very large Infantry. When they need fire support, which they do need regularly, they do not dial the air force. They do not dial the Composite missile brigade. They do not always dial the rocket artillery regiment. They almost always dial the tube artillery regiment.

When we open the front after a formal declaration of war, we are not going to wait for the enemy to hit us. We are going to open the heavy arty on all areas of enemy force concentration with EVERYTHING we have got. Tube arty will be used for an offensive role here and there will be gun duels until a stand-off distance is created between the defensive lines. Later, the pressure on such a retreating enemy defensive line can be increased with tube arty firing on a number of points in the enemy defensive line, thereby weakening them.

The other assets like rocket arty and missiles are used to achieve a break in enemy defensive perimeter to make room for our maneuver formations to exploit. Alternatively they may be used to bring enemy armour pincers to a grinding halt.

And I dont get your assertion that Tube arty is not accurate while rocket arty is. On a besieged enemy, or even on an enemy defensive line whose SATA assets are compromised, a forward artillery observation officer can call on fairly accurate and sustained tube arty barrages, better than what NAVIC guided arty rounds or rockets can achieve with just a drone for target acquisition.

Tube arty was and will continue to be the backbone of the Regiment of Artillery in the Indian Army. However, it will see considerable modernisation, particularly along the lines highlighted by @Kunal Biswas in this post
Indian Army Artillery
Particularly the part about smart arty rounds and other EW methods to spoof enemy Counter-battery Radars.

 

[Vijyes]

That is such BS.

How many regiments of Brahmos do we have deployed/plan to deploy? AFAIK 4-5
How many regiments of Pinaka do we plan to deploy? 22
How many regiments of towed artillery do we have deployed/plan to deploy? ~200

We have a very large front manned by a very large Infantry. When they need fire support, which they do need regularly, they do not dial the air force. They do not dial the Composite missile brigade. They do not always dial the rocket artillery regiment. They almost always dial the tube artillery regiment.

When we open the front after a formal declaration of war, we are not going to wait for the enemy to hit us. We are going to open the heavy arty on all areas of enemy force concentration with EVERYTHING we have got. Tube arty will be used for an offensive role here and there will be gun duels until a stand-off distance is created between the defensive lines. Later, the pressure on such a retreating enemy defensive line can be increased with tube arty firing on a number of points in the enemy defensive line, thereby weakening them.

The other assets like rocket arty and missiles are used to achieve a break in enemy defensive perimeter to make room for our maneuver formations to exploit. Alternatively they may be used to bring enemy armour pincers to a grinding halt.

And I dont get your assertion that Tube arty is not accurate while rocket arty is. On a besieged enemy, or even on an enemy defensive line whose SATA assets are compromised, a forward artillery observation officer can call on fairly accurate and sustained tube arty barrages, better than what NAVIC guided arty rounds or rockets can achieve with just a drone for target acquisition.

Tube arty was and will continue to be the backbone of the Regiment of Artillery in the Indian Army. However, it will see considerable modernisation, particularly along the lines highlighted by @Kunal Biswas in this post
Indian Army Artillery
Particularly the part about smart arty rounds and other EW methods to spoof enemy Counter-battery Radars.

I don't actually concern myself of defensive formation in limited war. I am speaking of full scale war. Limited wars are big waste of time and pointless. Either fight full-scale or don't.

Yes, in case of defensive formation during limited war, we use artillery. But, full scale war will use missile salvo, airstrike, naval strikes and then artillery.

Think big, plan big

 

[tharun]

These devices have range of only 4km and are not usable for 40+km artillery round fire directly by crew of howitzer. That is what spotters use to find targets. But conveying of coordinates is via sat-com (satellite communication device) and not direct push from the lisa device. How many times should i say?

For god's sake communicate properly. Else, you will piss people off

I'm talking about the target acquisition from the beginning,you are the are the one who can't understand.

==== Avoid abusive words ====

 

[sbm]

Kunal, if I may make a correction: the 5,5 inch was replaced in the main by the M46. We never had many of them in the first place. The 105s replaced the 25pdrs. It was always interesting we didn't see fit to replace the 7.2inch BL Mk.6 howitzers.

 

[Adioz]

I don't actually concern myself of defensive formation in limited war. I am speaking of full scale war. Limited wars are big waste of time and pointless. Either fight full-scale or don't.

Yes, in case of defensive formation during limited war, we use artillery. But, full scale war will use missile salvo, airstrike, naval strikes and then artillery.

Think big, plan big

We do use defensive formations in "full scale war". Study about how warfare is conducted before you post stuff like this. Please. I am begging you.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Can you elaborate, My knowledge seems limited here ..

Thanks in Advance ..

Kunal, if I may make a correction: the 5,5 inch was replaced in the main by the M46. We never had many of them in the first place. The 105s replaced the 25pdrs. It was always interesting we didn't see fit to replace the 7.2inch BL Mk.6 howitzers.

 

[Vijyes]

We do use defensive formations in "full scale war". Study about how warfare is conducted before you post stuff like this. Please. I am begging you.

Yes, i know that. I even mentioned about that earlier. My point is that artillery is not the 1st attack wave in fullscale war. Only in limited war, artillery comes 1st. "1st" is the key word here. You are missing that. Artillery is always needed in every war. But priority is not first in a fullscale invasive war

 

[sbm]

Can you elaborate, My knowledge seems limited here ..

Thanks in Advance ..

Ok. As you know field regiments were with 25pdrs (2 of them SP with Sextons) - 25-27 regiments in total and 6 regiments of medium guns with 5.5 inch guns. In addition there was a single regiment of 7.2 inch howitzers.

This is what India went to war with in 1965.

Additions to the field regiments came in the form of 100mm BS-3 guns initially and then the 105mm basically took over. Initially, the 105mm supplemented the 25pdrs - allowing additional field regiments to be raised but then they began to completely replace them and 84 25 pdrs went to the BSF, eventually also being replaced by 105mm guns.

Medium regiments were supplemented with the M-46 and then increasingly replaced by them (note here that 1 regiment of 5.5 inch guns officially remained on strength until 1996 - as did one of 7.2 inch howitzers).

Now it is quite confusing with 185 regiments with 130s being used by field and medium regiments.

 

[Chinmoy]

I'm talking about LISA hand held target acquisition and observation.
We need to get rid of these human intervention.

I've not seen the video, but let me share the tech-specs of what you are saying. As per the pdf you could see that target identification and acquisition of LISA is not more then 2 kms. It is one of the asset which forward observation squad do posses to identify target and guide the firing team.

Now any artillery team does have three major component.
Observer
Fire controller
Firing team.

Any observation of the target is carried out by the observer and he does acts like a guide for the shells. He reports directly to Fire control team which in turn does guide firing team with coordinates and bearings. Now as per you, we should take out the control team from the equation and there should be a direct link in between forward observation post and firing team. Although this could be done, but it would have some direct impact in mode of operation.
You have to know the fact that Fire control team not just pass on the coordinates to firing team, but they do analyse every second data of the warfield and pass it on to respective teams. By removing it from equation you would increase the load on other two teams. Now apart from their basic task, they would have to take care of other factors too. Like, the firing team had to know the exact location where the observation team is. They would have to take care of environmental factor of not only their location, but that too of observation team. Because while firing a shell for 30 odd kms, you can't expect the cross winds or temperature of firing area and target area to be same. Unless and until you use guided shell for each and every occasion, observation team would be in constant danger of getting hit. So basically a fire control team is more then just a intermediary. Its more of a VM for both the other team.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I have seen 5.5inch guns in 62 war archive, I cannot say their quantity back in those days but they were numerous by 65 and 71 ..

Can you share the pic of 7.2 howitzers, Perhaps i can dig more into it ..

In addition there was a single regiment of 7.2 inch howitzers.
.

 

[sbm]

The 5.5 inch gun is a WW2 piece that equipped medium regiments. Six regiments is quite a lot - and those 6 were in service in 1965. By 1971, the 130mm had supplanted them. If you look at even the ORBAT in the Eastern Theatre during 1971, it was perhaps one full regiment of 5.5 inch guns and maybe three of 130mm M46. Here's a photo of the 7.2 inch BL Howitzer on a Mk.6 chassis. Used by 60 Heavy Regiment.