Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[sbm]

Do IAF pilots practice flying in CBRN protective gear and coping with a contaminated environment? I have read that CBRN hardening and protection systems are being installed on several air bases (one hopes the HAS too). I know the IAF has QRTs for CBRN situations as well.

 

[SanjeevM]

@tharun you are correct, @Vijyes is nothing but a confused kid

But he should not be accusing others of being lobbyists for foreign aircraft. Everyone has right to express their views. Suddenly one cannot start accusing everyone else being paid lobbyists. Seems like he is unaware of current border situation. Chinese are flexing muscles. Pakistanis are blood thirsty. It's not necessary we have to fight a war in near future. It's just having enough deterrent to keep your enemies away and dare not think of attacking you.

As far as I have seen all Indians on this forum are the most patriotic lot and everyone prefers indigenous aircraft and military hardware. But as time lines are 2023 and beyond, we should have enough deterrence. IAF/government is the best judge we we have enough deterrence or not. If they believe there is enough deterrence and we can wait another 10+ years with existing stock and current Tejas production, no one has any problems with that. It's the government's evaluation of threat perspective. Whatever Modi decides we are with him.

 

[Pulkit]

See, I can't give you more detailed reasons. All I can say is that 300 crore+ people will be killed and it will be the legendary kalki war.

Quran: kill pagans for blasphemy. This world is fake. Do jihad for heaven.

islam asks to kill others so that on judgement day, muhammad can come back, kill them all (muslims) and send them to heaven. Not every]one is afraid to die. Only hindus are cowards

By the way, if there is going to be no war according to you, why do you suggest to buy expensive imported arms? Isn't it better to simply invest in Indian technology and wait till it materialises adjusting in the meantime with missile

I am an atheist. I do not believe in all this.
You have derailed from the topic and when you cannot answer specific question you shift to this shit.
War is due to greed nothing else.World war might/will not happen but wars are still taking place small scale between two nations/countries.

I am not gonna lecture you on Moral Science this needs to end.

On last try Indigenous arms cost "0" , whats your point? In which scenario "0"?

 

[Vijyes]

I am an atheist. I do not believe in all this.
You have derailed from the topic and when you cannot answer specific question you shift to this shit.
War is due to greed nothing else.World war might/will not happen but wars are still taking place small scale between two nations/countries.

I am not gonna lecture you on Moral Science this needs to end.

On last try Indigenous arms cost "0" , whats your point? In which scenario "0"?

Only retards believe. Rational people think. There are only 2 ways of finding out the rules of the world- either by revelation from god (like quran) or observation. The revelations problem is that it could be fraudulent or even from the devil. So, any of them have to be confirmed by observations. Your observation seems to be poor.

You better come up with reasons for jihad like aurangazeb, parsi persecution, lodhi, tughlaq demolishing temples and genocide of pagans/hindus when they had submitted? What greed?

Are every decision meant for greed? If not, your point stands invalid. You are an atheist? That is also a belief and unless you are able to justify, it is absurd.

 

[Pulkit]

Only retards believe. Rational people think. There are only 2 ways of finding out the rules of the world- either by revelation from god (like quran) or observation. The revelations problem is that it could be fraudulent or even from the devil. So, any of them have to be confirmed by observations. Your observation seems to be poor.

You better come up with reasons for jihad like aurangazeb, parsi persecution, lodhi, tughlaq demolishing temples and genocide of pagans/hindus when they had submitted? What greed?

Are every decision meant for greed? If not, your point stands invalid. You are an atheist? That is also a belief and unless you are able to justify, it is absurd.

:bs:
I do not like to further feed your ignorance .
You have gone off topic by miles.
I tried to bring you back on the topic but you are giving me shit which means nothing here.
you are just wasting time.

 

[Vijyes]

:bs:
I do not like to further feed your ignorance .
You have gone off topic by miles.
I tried to bring you back on the topic but you are giving me shit which means nothing here.
you are just wasting time.

Thanks for your kind words. Warning to be prepared for fullscale war is ignorance? And saying random things of small war etc, makes you a genius? wah wah. You think you set terms and decide when and how to fight? Why don't you start doing magic then? Declare that you will be superman because that is what you want to be! Stop acting as if you or your opinions are important and everything happens just the way you think it will happen without any reasons and stop abusing anyone who tells otherwise. You are a retarded kid whom we call as "liberals".

Unless you can justify your arguments with reason, logic and facts with historical precedence and examples, you don't comment. If you have any theory, it should be capable of justifying and explaining the examples and happenings of the world not just of today but also of the past world. Without that, your theory is absurd. You can keep it with yourself and don't spread your bullshit everywhere

 

[Pulkit]

Thanks for your kind words. Warning to be prepared for fullscale war is ignorance? And saying random things of small war etc, makes you a genius? wah wah. You think you set terms and decide when and how to fight? Why don't you start doing magic then? Declare that you will be superman because that is what you want to be! Stop acting as if you or your opinions are important and everything happens just the way you think it will happen without any reasons and stop abusing anyone who tells otherwise. You are a retarded kid whom we call as "liberals".

Unless you can justify your arguments with reason, logic and facts with historical precedence and examples, you don't comment. If you have any theory, it should be capable of justifying and explaining the examples and happenings of the world not just of today but also of the past world. Without that, your theory is absurd. You can keep it with yourself and don't spread your bullshit everywhere

OFF TOPIC YOU ARE LAST POST FOR YOU
I have justified and stated point by point for every point u raised till u derailed.
I did not go off topic whereas u are trying to bring religion into this.

Still not answered, posting for nth time " Indigenous arms cost "0" , whats your point? In which scenario "0"?"

Last post if you cannot get constructive and get back to topic.No further replied.
Thanks have fun living in your lala land when you cannot debate on something....

 

[Vijyes]

OFF TOPIC YOU ARE LAST POST FOR YOU
I have justified and stated point by point for every point u raised till u derailed.
I did not go off topic whereas u are trying to bring religion into this.

Still not answered, posting for nth time " Indigenous arms cost "0" , whats your point? In which scenario "0"?"

Last post if you cannot get constructive and get back to topic.No further replied.
Thanks have fun living in your lala land when you cannot debate on something....

The whole point of make in india is that the resources of indians will remain with indians and there is no need to give away resources to others. Since, no resource is going out, we are having 0 cost. Of course, certain things like oil, minerals, rare/exotic metals has to be imported and hence there is some cost involved and not exactly 0. But this cost arises because we are not using fully indigenous items (even though metal, oil are raw materials, they are still imported materials).

So, what is money? It is the share of the available resources in today's time. The same job may have fetched little money in 1970 but fetches several times more today and that is because resource exploitation has caused abundance of consumption oriented resources. Rupee is just a convention used to make it easier to be objective in assigning figures and values for various resources within india. Since, govt is controlling the rupee, it can print the money, decide on what share of the money comes back to it and from which activity (taxation) and then decide whom or how to distribute the resource. So, the government can simply manipulate the money flow and then get the work done free.

For example, govt needs to buy guns. It will hire 1000 employees to make guns indigenously who will be supplied with money (salary) and raw materials. Now, the metals will be obtained by miners who will pay a part of the produce as tax to govt which in turn is used to buy up the same metals and these people are then taxed 30% income tax on salary. Then tax can be raised on various services and goods including agriculture produce and rest of the money paid off. Ideally, agriculture income can also be taxed but is not being taxed as of now due to agriculture being declared as necessary for food security and politics. But if situation changes it will be taxed. Agriculture has been the main source of income for states for over 10000 years and can be again. When politics prevent tax, rupee can be printed, adding to inflation (indirect tax on savings money).

 

[Pulkit]

Let me start by saying Thanks for responding and in a way that makes some sense, but there are few points I agree and few where i disagree

The whole point of make in india is that the resources of indians will remain with indians and there is no need to give away resources to others. Since, no resource is going out, we are having 0 cost..

Make in India is definitely a good thing and yes it does help by creating jobs and generating revenues. There is nothing like 0 cost there is always a cost. Cost to an exchequer for one aircraft Made In India can be 50 Mil and if the same if imported from the other country it might cost 30 Mil. Why ? once we plan to make something we need to have infrastructure, technical shill and know how.If we are developing it then there will be huge R&D cost and not to forget the time span required to develop a particular tech. The world is a global hub and it changing everyday, given the current scenario we have a Gen4 A/c with us but the world is at Gen5. Developing Stealth on our own si gonna take a lot of time.
+
We cannot develop everything in house. That's not economical. As i have stated in the past as well 60-65% should be indigenous.

Of course, certain things like oil, minerals, rare/exotic metals has to be imported and hence there is some cost involved and not exactly 0. But this cost arises because we are not using fully indigenous items (even though metal, oil are raw materials, they are still imported materials).

Like I said it cannot be 100% indigenous in the current global world scenario.You are referring to things which do effect cost but not at large talk about the aircraft engines for Tejas alone they are gonna cost us alot and that is a huge %.

So, what is money? It is the share of the available resources in today's time. The same job may have fetched little money in 1970 but fetches several times more today and that is because resource exploitation has caused abundance of consumption oriented resources.

I did not get what are you trying to convey with this scenario?

Rupee is just a convention used to make it easier to be objective in assigning figures and values for various resources within india. Since, govt is controlling the rupee, it can print the money, decide on what share of the money comes back to it and from which activity (taxation) and then decide whom or how to distribute the resource. So, the government can simply manipulate the money flow and then get the work done free.

Thats again not true if you keep printing money the economy will collapse.Govt can print and Tax the money Yes but it cannot control its flow.

For example, govt needs to buy guns. It will hire 1000 employees to make guns indigenously who will be supplied with money (salary) and raw materials. Now, the metals will be obtained by miners who will pay a part of the produce as tax to govt which in turn is used to buy up the same metals and these people are then taxed 30% income tax on salary. Then tax can be raised on various services and goods including agriculture produce and rest of the money paid off.

but they will cost us more than rest of the world + you do not have everything in house if that would have been the scenario there would have been no Dollar ratio in place

Ideally, agriculture income can also be taxed

Do not want it to happen

but is not being taxed as of now due to agriculture being declared as necessary for food security and politics. But if situation changes it will be taxed. Agriculture has been the main source of income for states for over 10000 years and can be again. When politics prevent tax, rupee can be printed, adding to inflation (indirect tax on savings money).

We still have people in our Nation who cannot afford meal and farmers committing suicide this should not happen.

Points:
1) There is never "0" cost. There is success and failure, in R&D failure being part of learning also has a price of its own.
2)Assembled product:In house Production costs more due to Infra, resource, technical labour, Supply Chain etc.It is done to get transfer of technology which also adds to the cost.Rafale was costing us more when built in India as per various reports.
3)Product developed in house have development cost involved along with the time frame taken to develop it. Tejas took 25+ years for example so that in a way means we are 25+ years behind world as they started Gen 5 back then.
4)We are still not able to get FOC.
5)The numbers required cannot wait for the local defense industry to mature.

As I have always said that we can maintain a balance but we must get the indigenous % to 60-65%. If we are unable to build bigger itenaries we must focus on small products.

 

[Vijyes]

:bs:
I do not like to further feed your ignorance .
You have gone off topic by miles.
I tried to bring you back on the topic but you are giving me shit which means nothing here.
you are just wasting time.

Wait so the airframe is a mix of F22s and YF23s, sensor fusion and ECM, DAS and EOTS ... sounds like F35 to me. This is going to be tough for us, I mean Russian SU50 doesn't have smooth surfaces, it's concealed Weapon Bay Doors (WBD) have gaps, quite visible in photos. This whole things sounds too good to be true I mean.

OFF TOPIC YOU ARE LAST POST FOR YOU
I have justified and stated point by point for every point u raised till u derailed.
I did not go off topic whereas u are trying to bring religion into this.

Still not answered, posting for nth time " Indigenous arms cost "0" , whats your point? In which scenario "0"?"

Last post if you cannot get constructive and get back to topic.No further replied.
Thanks have fun living in your lala land when you cannot debate on something....

Let me start by saying Thanks for responding and in a way that makes some sense, but there are few points I agree and few where i disagree Make in India is definitely a good thing and yes it does help by creating jobs and generating revenues. There is nothing like 0 cost there is always a cost. Cost to an exchequer for one aircraft Made In India can be 50 Mil and if the same if imported from the other country it might cost 30 Mil. Why ? once we plan to make something we need to have infrastructure, technical shill and know how.If we are developing it then there will be huge R&D cost and not to forget the time span required to develop a particular tech. The world is a global hub and it changing everyday, given the current scenario we have a Gen4 A/c with us but the world is at Gen5. Developing Stealth on our own si gonna take a lot of time.
+
We cannot develop everything in house. That's not economical. As i have stated in the past as well 60-65% should be indigenous. Like I said it cannot be 100% indigenous in the current global world scenario.You are referring to things which do effect cost but not at large talk about the aircraft engines for Tejas alone they are gonna cost us alot and that is a huge %.I did not get what are you trying to convey with this scenario? Thats again not true if you keep printing money the economy will collapse.Govt can print and Tax the money Yes but it cannot control its flow. but they will cost us more than rest of the world + you do not have everything in house if that would have been the scenario there would have been no Dollar ratio in place Do not want it to happenWe still have people in our Nation who cannot afford meal and farmers committing suicide this should not happen.

Points:
1) There is never "0" cost. There is success and failure, in R&D failure being part of learning also has a price of its own.
2)Assembled product:In house Production costs more due to Infra, resource, technical labour, Supply Chain etc.It is done to get transfer of technology which also adds to the cost.Rafale was costing us more when built in India as per various reports.
3)Product developed in house have development cost involved along with the time frame taken to develop it. Tejas took 25+ years for example so that in a way means we are 25+ years behind world as they started Gen 5 back then.
4)We are still not able to get FOC.
5)The numbers required cannot wait for the local defense industry to mature.

As I have always said that we can maintain a balance but we must get the indigenous % to 60-65%. If we are unable to build bigger itenaries we must focus on small products.

The govt collects tax for a reason - welfare and redistribution in the today's centralised economy based on mass production. Govt spends huge amounts subsidising construction of houses under PMGAY, MNREGA etc. Instead of that, spend the same money on production of arms. The govt has many schemes for employment generation. Why not direct the same schemes towards arms manufacturing? That will also provide jobs and hence redistribution of wealth and at the same time get arms too. This is how indigenous items are 0 cost items.

Stop saying the useless bbc stuff that we have people who don't have money to provide for meals. That is just fit for those looneys sitting in ac rooms uttering gibberish to ac room audience. Reality is that every poor gets subsidised rice at less than 5 rupees a kg, subsidised sugar and subsidised kerosene for cooking and eating. How can you call them to be starving? What is PDS for then?

During war, people will go out of jobs and one can just about hire anyone for military production job and agriculture will have to be taxed. So, indigenous items are always preferred. One should always strive for 100% indigenisation in technology but till there is war, only make those which are economical (high cost &/or high quantity objects) and import the small time items required in low quantity. Upto 85% indigenisation is possible in peace time and during war expand manufacturing to 100%

 

[Pulkit]

The govt collects tax for a reason - welfare and redistribution in the today's centralised economy based on mass production.

Taxes are collected for Govt to run the country. Pay salaries, development projects etc. Mass production of what kind and of what?

Govt spends huge amounts subsidising construction of houses under PMGAY, MNREGA etc. Instead of that, spend the same money on production of arms.

Are we exporting any arms in large scale ? Do we see the option on next 20 Years? We are not a state like Paki who sacrified education and food of the people to build a nuke. We are a nation which believes in Human development and that is our biggest resource. The % spent of defense needs to be increased if that,s what you are saying but not at the cost of all these projects.

The govt has many schemes for employment generation. Why not direct the same schemes towards arms manufacturing?

yes, thats what they wanted to do under Make In India. lets say Tejas Plant provides job to 10,000 directly and indirectly and If F16 Plant gives employement to same number then remember once the domestic orders are complete there is a customer base already existing for F16 but none yet for Tejas.F16 plant is gonna run longer than Tejas given Govt doesnot buckle up and put all there support behind Tejas.

That will also provide jobs and hence redistribution of wealth and at the same time get arms too. This is how indigenous items are 0 cost items.

okay that means its a cycle and the money just changes hands.So why do we need to print more money and get FDI ?

Stop saying the useless bbc stuff that we have people who don't have money to provide for meals.

that's the reality you agree or not

That is just fit for those looneys sitting in ac rooms uttering gibberish to ac room audience.

They might be making it look a little more bad than it actually is

Reality is that every poor gets subsidised rice at less than 5 rupees a kg, subsidised sugar and subsidised kerosene for cooking and eating. How can you call them to be starving?

Still people search for food in garbage Bins. Still people beg for food. Get to ground and see all these schemes are there but how they are executed and implemented?

During war, people will go out of jobs and one can just about hire anyone for military production job and agriculture will have to be taxed.

You want to hire unskilled labour at war time Train them and get into production . Thats really cool.Every Plant has its capacity you cannot have any more men than it already has. You might get shifts but thats a very small number.

So, indigenous items are always preferred.

Yes they are "preferred"

One should always strive for 100% indigenisation in technology but till there is war, only make those which are economical (high cost &/or high quantity objects) and import the small time items required in low quantity.

100% Indigenisation not any time soon and that will never be economical and up to the competition

Upto 85% indigenisation is possible in peace time and during war expand manufacturing to 100%

85%? Currently we have nothing Major Indigenous. Apart from Navy who are taking Make In India seriously no one wants to support domestic Defense production. Why?
1)High Cost
2)Time Span
3)Lack of Tech
4)Competition

I am all in for Indigenous but currently we do not have that ability. We need to gradually increase so instead of going for the biggies start was small bits.

 

[sbm]

Right now - indigenous content in licensed products is limited by contractual terms (it won't ever exceed 55-60% by value). Su-30 is 75% indigenous by component but only 55% by value and even that is over the contract which stipulates 49% by value. Pulkit is right start small. The navy isn't significantly more indigenous by value. But they are much more so by design.

 

[bhramos]

A leading news site embedded fighter plane pic in C-17 plane news.
#DefenceIlliteracy

 

[Vijyes]

Right now - indigenous content in licensed products is limited by contractual terms (it won't ever exceed 55-60% by value). Su-30 is 75% indigenous by component but only 55% by value and even that is over the contract which stipulates 49% by value. Pulkit is right start small. The navy isn't significantly more indigenous by value. But they are much more so by design.

Right now - indigenous content in licensed products is limited by contractual terms (it won't ever exceed 55-60% by value). Su-30 is 75% indigenous by component but only 55% by value and even that is over the contract which stipulates 49% by value. Pulkit is right start small. The navy isn't significantly more indigenous by value. But they are much more so by design.

Yes, start small as we don't have urgency but only because we need cutting edge tech, not low class f16! Once we get the tech, we reverse engineer, gain an idea and try and make as much ourselves as possible. We are behind China by 7 years overall and that can be caught up with high quality imports and reverse engineer. Buying imports for being economical is foolish

 

[F-14B]

A leading news site embedded fighter plane pic in C-17 plane news.
#DefenceIlliteracy

Desi dork defense reporting

 

[TPFscopes]

Lost Deal, the Su-34 fullback.

As the IAF's Canberras flew their last sortie back in 2005 the IAF was planning for a serious replacement of Canberras to boost her fleet of Strategic Bombers. For this the IAF was looking for the Sukhoi Su-34 Fullback, the requirement of which was for 200 aircraft approximately (Including 80 for the Indian Navy for maritime strike roles).

However, the government showed no interest in funding the project since the inclusion of Su-30MKI pretty much killed the idea of having a strategic bomber later the IAF had to modify the Su-30MKI to fulfill the requirements.

 

[Chinmoy]

Lost Deal, the Su-34 fullback.

As the IAF's Canberras flew their last sortie back in 2005 the IAF was planning for a serious replacement of Canberras to boost her fleet of Strategic Bombers. For this the IAF was looking for the Sukhoi Su-34 Fullback, the requirement of which was for 200 aircraft approximately (Including 80 for the Indian Navy for maritime strike roles).

However, the government showed no interest in funding the project since the inclusion of Su-30MKI pretty much killed the idea of having a strategic bomber later the IAF had to modify the Su-30MKI to fulfill the requirements.

Stupidity at its pinnacle best..............

 

[sbm]

TFPscopes - why have the NG HAS for Su-30s not been pursued with alacrity? Are Indian HAS to NATO standards?

 

[sthf]

A leading news site embedded fighter plane pic in C-17 plane news.
#DefenceIlliteracy

Are you saying that these are not C-17s? The hatred for media under Modi is reaching new heights.

 

[TPFscopes]

TFPscopes - why have the NG HAS for Su-30s not been pursued with alacrity?

Because funds available with IAF are very limited when comparing with the requirements of IAF.
NG HAS are not on priority of IAF.
Right now, IAF wants to replace oldies and squadron increment.

Are Indian HAS to NATO standards?

IAF HAS can easily handle ~1000 lb bombs.