Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

ezsasa

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It is small order compared to what IAF is ready to invest in Gripen/F-16 which will be no less that 200 AC confirmed for 16/year production rate( and it will do it happily/willingly). And yes you think it will not eat in to Tejas numbers now but slowly and steadily arms mafia will kill homegrown tech sighting and magnifying different shortcomings.

Today IAF is sighting AESA radar/engine, datalink 2-3 years down the line it will be another set of reasons. You have to start somewhere to develop homegrown capabilities. What is it exactly stopping IAF with Tejas now??

The reality is IAF does not want to spend anytime or effort for any development activity in homegrown AC. But yes they will crawl before foreign vendors for same reasons.
My arguments are based on the known information, The known info is that initial plan is for 90 single engine foreign aircraft. This 90 itself will take almost a decade to manufacture. HAL has enough time to react.

IAF + IN have given combined confirmed order 150, what more do you want? This order itself takes a decade to full fill. If they maintain their delivery schedule, the additional cashflow can be invested by HAL on new technologies for Tejas itself.
 

cannonfodder

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GOI could have floated an contract to make 300 LCA-MK1A/MK2 to private/foreign player with confirmed orders and opportunity to develop 5th gen AMCA. How different is it from starting manufacturing Gripen/F-16 in India 3-4 years down the line by LM/Boeing/Saab?

The orders you are quoting from IAF are sufficient to roll out 16/year LCA's just like Indian army ordered 100-200 odd Arjun tanks to keep some mouths shut. The same story will be repeated for 5th gen AMCA development(we will have F-22, F35, PAKFA, J-20, probably Jap 5th gen AC fighters ready by then) unless India decide to break the loop and start design/developing/manufacturing at home.

Now i will stop responding to you in any further posts and would like to see what screw-driver ToT India gets with this tender. :pound:

IAF + IN have given combined confirmed order 150, what more do you want?
 

Zebra

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GOI could have floated an contract to make 300 LCA-MK1A/MK2 to private/ foreign player with confirmed orders and opportunity to develop 5th gen AMCA. How different is it from starting manufacturing Gripen/F-16 in India 3-4 years down the line by LM/Boeing/Saab?

The orders you are quoting from IAF are sufficient to roll out 16/year LCA's just like Indian army ordered 100-200 odd Arjun tanks to keep some mouths shut. The same story will be repeated for 5th gen AMCA development(we will have F-22, F35, PAKFA, J-20, probably Jap 5th gen AC fighters ready by then) unless India decide to break the loop and start design/developing/manufacturing at home.

Now i will stop responding to you in any further posts and would like to see what screw-driver ToT India gets with this tender. :pound:
:facepalm:

That would be the worst thing , I must say that.

Forget about private/ foreign player, even ADA and DRDO, together also can't figure it out.

At this stage, if you keep HAL out of Tejas project, then you gonna kill it. For sure.


And its too late now.
 

cannonfodder

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^^^ I said add to the existing and place firm orders to foreign/private companies and not take away existing orders from HAL. I won't even bother to reply to second whatever that is.

I am already with my popcorn to see:
1. What magic trick will be used by foreign companies to create Tier 1/2 parts suppliers for fighter AC manufacturing in India.
2. How IAF will be crawling before foreign companies for minor changes :rofl:
3. What screwdriver ToT india will get for scrapping LCA
4. What will be final price of new single seater AC after modifications and when.

Here is Saabs GaN Tech:
Also, they don't make their own GaN components. They buy from commercial suppliers in Europe, or the US. Whats stopping India from reaching and forming partnerships with European universities and foundries to codevelop components if technology is what they seek? Essentially, the only thing SAAB sells that is its own end-end is the back end (borrowed from the Gripen C/D)
 

vayuu1

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It is small order compared to what IAF is ready to invest in Gripen/F-16 which will be no less that 200 AC confirmed for 16/year production rate( and it will do it happily/willingly). And yes you think it will not eat in to Tejas numbers now but slowly and steadily arms mafia will kill homegrown tech sighting and magnifying different shortcomings.

Today IAF is sighting AESA radar/engine, datalink 2-3 years down the line it will be another set of reasons. You have to start somewhere to develop homegrown capabilities. What is it exactly stopping IAF with Tejas now??

The reality is IAF does not want to spend anytime or effort for any development activity in homegrown AC. But yes they will crawl before foreign vendors for same reasons.
Agree on that; but the thing is, may be IAF wants TOT for the indigenous projects like Amca and the stealth version of lca, who knows an Alca,may be IAF has realised that stealth will be an important part in South Asia too since induction of j20-31 is near, even f-3 is in testing phase so who knows.

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vajradatta

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I am already with my popcorn to see:
2. How IAF will be crawling before foreign companies for minor changes :rofl:
If the F-16 production line is transferred to India lock, stock and barrel from Texas and made the regional service center, that won't be an issue. Any changes, minor or major, will be sorted out before such a move. The only :rofl:we should have is if Pakistan requires to service its F-16s in India. I hope the F-16 is chosen with minimum delay.
3. What screwdriver ToT india will get for scrapping LCA
All indication are that LCA is not going to be scrapped. That is no longer a line of argument. That project must and will be taken to its conclusion, hopefully with an Indian engine, but it CANNOT be allowed to hold up the buildup of IAF capabilities as soon as possible as the situation is critical thanks to UPA's inept MoD. The current LCA doesn't have FOC yet but it has been put into service and there is an order for 120 of the 1A version. What does that tell you? On ToT, nobody is going to spoon feed us their hard won technology for any amount of money. We will be getting the entire production line and it is up to us to learn and absorb. Even if all the drawings and specs are in front of our nose, it is no use unless we know what to do with it. Remember, we got full ToT and drawings for Bofors but still couldn't make a gun for 30 years while army was running pillar to post looking for guns. The Dhanush 155/45 is still not in service, forget 155/52 which we need. Unlike the Chinese and others, our DPSUs have proved remarkably inept in absorbing tech even though they have been making advanced stuff for decades.
4. What will be final price of new single seater AC after modifications and when.
AFAIK, both F-16 and Gripen will be cheaper than LCA when you factor in total costs.
 

Zebra

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I am already with my popcorn to see:
1. What magic trick will be used by foreign companies to create Tier 1/2 parts suppliers for fighter AC manufacturing in India.
Just for an example ---> Sikorsky S-92 project.

2. How IAF will be crawling before foreign companies for minor changes :rofl:
Don't forget you are talking about those armed forces, who are still heavily dependent on weapons imports.

If someone make them in country, then what's wrong in it..........!

3. What screwdriver ToT india will get for scrapping LCA
Best example is howitzer that technology, do you still remember that case, I wonder.

4. What will be final price of new single seater AC after modifications and when.

Here is Saabs GaN Tech:..............
Provide source for that red color part.
 

Zebra

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^^^ I said add to the existing and place firm orders to foreign/private companies and not take away existing orders from HAL. I won't even bother to reply to second whatever that is.
....................................
Then you should say foreign/private/HAL .

You can't keep HAL away from Tejas. It simply won't work.
 

cannonfodder

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Just for an example ---> Sikorsky S-92 project.

Don't forget you are talking about those armed forces, who are still heavily dependent on weapons imports.

If someone make them in country, then what's wrong in it..........!

Best example is howitzer that technology, do you still remember that case, I wonder.

Provide source for that red color part.
http://aviationweek.com/technology/innovation-laureate-raytheon-and-saab-gan-galvanizers

What stops India from ordering same from commercial fabs?
The Swedish company does not have a GaN foundry, but instead has the commercial industry produce its integrated-circuit designs.
Also read through this one page abt SAAB PR: https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7112&start=3480

The same IAF has shown great courtesy and commitment during LCA development. Rest of the stuff we will see in detail when movie starts & things unfold (if indeed this news is true).. :laugh:
 

IndianHawk

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Gist of the matter we are going to invest 5-6 billion $ into foreign r&d .
No matter how well they cover it. That is the truth.

They could have inducted lca few years back. It was still more capable than mig21 .
They are still flying mig27 and they want AESA in lca.

Iaf need some budgetary discipline too. We are not France nor Sweden nor USA. We can only fly planes which do not broke our bank
 

sorcerer

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All the IAF’s flying, fighting machines: ‎Blenheim, Caribou, Tiger Moth, Rafale


French-made Rafale fighter planes will be the 80th type of aircraft to join the Indian Air Force fleet in 2019.

As the IAF prepares to induct Rafale fighter jets after inking a Euro 7.8-billion deal with France in September, HT gives you the low-down on the aircraft it has operated since it was formed in Karachi in 1933.

The Sukhois, the Jaguars and the MiGs surely ring a bell, but what about Blenheim and Caribou? Here’s all you need to know about the birds Indian pilots have flown:

The early English years

Westland Wapiti: The Royal Indian Air Force (RIAF) was formed in 1933 in Karachi with four ‎Wapiti IIA aircraft. The British bi-planes served the IAF till 1945. The air force lost some Wapitis to Japanese bombing in Burma in World War II.

Tiger Moth: The Tiger Moth, manufactured by British plane maker de Havilland, was operated by the IAF from 1939 to 1957. The IAF’s vintage fleet includes a Tiger Moth that was refurbished in 2012. The bi-plane served as a trainer.


File photo of A Tiger Moth.


Blenheim: The British light bombers served the RIAF briefly in 1941-42. The planes were used for providing air cover to ships arriving at the Rangoon harbour.

Lysander: The British-built light bomber was operated by the RIAF in the early 1940s. The Lysander was considered to be a vulnerable aircraft: the UK’s Royal Air Force lost 118 over France and Belgium in May-June 1940.

Hurricane: The RIAF got its Hawker Hurricanes in 1942. The Hurricanes saw action during the Arakan campaign in Burma and were the first operational aircraft capable of a top speed of over 300 miles per hour.

Spitfire: The Spitfires replaced the Hurricanes. By 1946, the entire fighter force was Spitfire-equipped. Hailed as the most successful fighter design of the time, the British planes remained in service till the late 1950s.

Other planes that served the RIAF in its early years include Dragon Rapide, Audio, Dragon Fly, Harvard, Hudson, Vengeance, Valentia, Defiant and Atlanta.

The years around partition

Tempest II: The planes were the backbone of the air force’s fighter fleet for almost 10 years after Independence.

Dakota: Months before the partition, the RIAF raised its first transport squadron with C-47 Dakotas.

B-24 Liberator: The RIAF raised its first heavy bomber squadron with the American Liberators in 1948. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) played a key role in re-conditioning the Liberators abandoned as scrap by the US Air Force. The planes remained in service till 1968.


File photo of a B-24 Liberator.


Vampires: The air force inducted the British-built plane as a front-line fighter in 1948. India operated more than 400 Vampires till the late 1960s. The IAF dropped its “Royal” prefix when India became a Republic in 1950.

The French debut

Dassault Ouragan: It marked the debut of a French fighter in the IAF’s fleet. Known as “Toofanis” in IAF service, the first Ouragan was inducted in 1953 and the fleet remained in service till 1967-68. India chose the Ouragan to diversify its global arms purchases.

Mystere IVA: The second French-origin fighter to join the Indian fleet in 1957. The year saw the IAF expand in a major way: the British Hawker Hunter fighters English Electric Canberra bombers were inducted in 1957. The induction of French Mirage 2000 fighters began in 1985.


File photo of mirage 2000.


Canberras: The Canberras saw action in the Congo in 1961-62. During the 1999 Kargil conflict, a Canberra was assigned to conduct photo survey along the Line of Control. A missile hit it but the pilot still managed to land.

Other aircraft inducted in the IAF in the 1950s included the Devon, C-119 Packet, DHC-3 Otter, Vickers Viscount and Sikorsky S-55 choppers.

The Soviet era dominance

MiG -21 and other variants: The IAF inducted the MiG-21 in 1963, ushering in a new era of Soviet dominance of the Indian defence market. Upgraded variants of the iconic fighter are still in service. A questionable flight safety record earned the fighters epithets such as ‘flying coffins’ and ‘widow makers’. The MiG-21 is the IAF’s first warplane of non-western origin. The IAF went on to induct several MiG variants through the 1980s: the MiG-23s, the MiG-25s, the MiG-27s and the MiG-29s.

Antonov-12: The first Russian transport plane supplied to the IAF in 1961. The AN-12Bs were used during the 1962 India-China war. Canada delivered its DHC-4 Caribou cargo planes to the IAF after the war.

Mi-4: These Soviet-origin transport helicopters were inducted in 1960 followed by Mi-8s in early 70s, Mi-17s in 1985 and the latest Mi-17 V5 entered service just four years ago.

Sukhoi-7: The Soviet-origin Su-7s were inducted in 1968 and took part in the 1971 India-Pakistan war. The IAF got its latest Sukhoi variant, the Su-30, in 1997. India has ordered a total of 272 Su-30s that form the backbone of its fighter fleet.


File photo of Sukhoi-7.


Antonov-32: The An-32s joined the IAF in 1983 and continue to remain in service. The air force has a fleet of more than 100 AN-32s. The IAF has still not been able to trace an AN-32 that went missing while flying from Chennai to Port Blair on July 22.

The US joins the party

AH-64E Apache attack helicopters: The IAF’s attack helicopter fleet will be strengthened with the arrival of 22 AH-64E Apache Longbow attack helicopters from the US in 2019. The IAF currently operates Mi-25 and Mi-35 gunships inducted in the 1980s.

CH-47F Chinooks: The IAF’s capability to deliver payloads to high altitudes will be enhanced when it inducts CH-47F Chinook choppers from the US in 2019. Soviet-origin Mi-26 choppers provided heavy-lift capabilities to the IAF for nearly three decades after being inducted in 1986. Out of the four delivered to India, only a solitary chopper remains in service.

C-17 Globemaster III: The IAF completed the induction of 10 US-made planes in 2014. Extensively used by the US Air Force in Iraq and Afghanistan, the C-17 is capable of airlifting tanks, attack helicopters and infantry combat vehicles to India’s farthest frontiers. Before the C-17s, Russian Ilyushin-76 planes, inducted in 1985, were the only heavy-lift cargo planes in the fleet.

C-130J Super Hercules: India signed a $1.2-billion contract with the US in 2008 for buying six C-130J planes. All have been delivered. The IAF is buying six more C-130Js, configured for special operations and airborne assault.


File photo of C-130J Super Hercules.


Built in India

Gnat: The IAF inducted the British Folland Gnat in 1958 and the light-weight fighter was licence-built by HAL. It was later upgraded with increased fuel capacity and christened Ajeet.

HF-24 Marut: Inducted in the mid-1960s, it was India’s first indigenously-designed fighter. The Marut was designed by the German aircraft designer Kurt Tank, hired by HAL, and Indian engineers.

Tejas: The IAF raised its first Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) squadron in July 2016 with two fighters. The IAF eventually plans to induct a total of 120 Tejas jets.


File photo of Tejas aircraft.


Birds that stood out in war/operations

1947-48 Kashmir operations: Spitfires from the Ambala base strafed Pakistani intruders who were barely a km from the Srinagar airfield in November 1947. British-built Tempest bombers played a significant role in the Battle of Shelateng that left 700 raiders dead near Srinagar. The Tempests were also involved in reconnaissance missions over Poonch, Rajouri and Naushera. The RIAF’s first military campaign after independence also saw Dakotas make their mark, flying troops, ammunition and supplies to Srinagar. American Harvard trainers provided air support to the army.

1962 India-China war: The debate over India not using its air force in an offensive role still rages. However, AN-12Bs airlifted AMX-13 light tanks to Chushul in Ladakh during the war. The unprepared airstrip was at a height of 15,000 feet. The IAF was used only to provide transportation to the army. Military experts have argued that the use of IAF could have changed the outcome of the war.

1965 India-Pakistan war: The Canberras bombed Pakistani air bases at Sargodha and Chaklala. The IAF used its Gnat fighters for air defence, Mysteres for ground attack and Hawker Hunters for interdiction. The Gnats shot down several Pakistani F-86 Sabres, a feat that earned them the ‘Sabre Slayer’ epithet. Pakistan got its most famous prisoner of war in 1965 after Kodendera Cariappa’s Hunter was shot down over Pakistan. His father KM Cariappa - who became Field Marshal - was the army chief from 1949-53. President Ayub Khan offered to release his son, but this is what Cariappa had to say: “They (POWs) are all my sons, look after them well.”


File photo of Hawker Hunters.


1971 India-Pakistan war: The IAF’s MiG-21s, Gnats and Marut were pitched against Pakistani Sabres and F-104 Starfighters. The IAF scored kills even before the war officially began on December 3. On November 22, the Gnats shot down three Sabres in the eastern sector. Four Hunter fighters are credited with wiping out an entire Pakistani armoured regiment at Longewala. Interestingly, AN-12 transport planes were used for bombing Pakistani ammunition dumps at Changa Manga forest.

1999 Kargil war: The air offensive during the war was codenamed Operation Safedsagar. The fighters involved were MiG-21s, MiG-23s, MiG-27s, MiG-29s and Mirage 2000s. The IAF lost two fighter jets and a helicopter during the operations and one of its pilots was taken as prisoner of war after his MiG-27 flamed out. He was returned after being tortured for several days. The Kargil war saw the IAF do some ‘jugaad’ too. The weapons’ computer of the Mirage 2000 had to be tweaked to cater for delivery of bombs from a very high altitude.


File photo of a MiG-21.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...moth-rafale/story-zUX7d61RMkLMax57bwDYqN.html
 

Zebra

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That is not the end of the world.



http://aviationweek.com/technology/innovation-laureate-raytheon-and-saab-gan-galvanizers

What stops India from ordering same from commercial fabs?

The Swedish company does not have a GaN foundry, but instead has the commercial industry produce its integrated-circuit designs.

Also read through this one page abt SAAB PR: https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7112&start=3480

The same IAF has shown great courtesy and commitment during LCA development. Rest of the stuff we will see in detail when movie starts & things unfold (if indeed this news is true).. :laugh:
 

cannonfodder

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Summarized it well.

India would be interested in GaN fabrication tech for advanced AESA for AMCA/PAKFA, one that SaaB does not have but marketing as ToT :laugh:. For LCA, AESA being developed is good enough. Sadly people are falling over this PR campaign by SaaB.

LCA was capable enough to start replacing Migs(but for attitude of IAF generals-AoA, AESA and mid air refueling is a must etc etc). We could have made improvements in batches and upgraded old AC later. See the enthusiasm they are showing in (40-50 year old)F sholah and Gripen now...:pound:.

Gist of the matter we are going to invest 5-6 billion $ into foreign r&d .
No matter how well they cover it. That is the truth.

They could have inducted lca few years back. It was still more capable than mig21 .
They are still flying mig27 and they want AESA in lca.

Iaf need some budgetary discipline too. We are not France nor Sweden nor USA. We can only fly planes which do not broke our bank
 
Last edited:

Zebra

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Gist of the matter we are going to invest 5-6 billion $ into foreign r&d .
No matter how well they cover it. That is the truth.

They could have inducted lca few years back. It was still more capable than mig21 .
They are still flying mig27 and they want AESA in lca.

Iaf need some budgetary discipline too. We are not France nor Sweden nor USA. We can only fly planes which do not broke our bank
* That will be like havoc in defence.

They can't wait anymore. Already they waited for nearly 20 years now, for next big ticket defence deal.

* Fill free, you can consider not buying 196+ Rafales is the part of that 'budgetary discipline' , anyway.
 

Zebra

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Summarized it well.

India would be interested in GaN fabrication tech for advanced AESA for AMCA/PAKFA, one that SaaB does not have but marketing as ToT :laugh:. For LCA, AESA being developed is good enough. Sadly people are falling over this PR campaign by SaaB.

LCA was capable enough to start replacing Migs(but for attitude of IAF generals-AoA, AESA and mid air refueling is a must etc etc). We could have made improvements in batches and upgraded old AC later. See the enthusiasm they are showing in (40-50 year old)F sholah and Gripen now...:pound:.
That red color part shows, the reason for your cry, sir.

At the end of the day, its all about typical mind set, nothing else.

And all these are not new in India and on DFI.

People dealt with it many times in past too.
 

cannonfodder

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Yeah I understand your enthusiasm for ToT on non-existing GaN fab Tech from SaaB :pound:. Keep that to yourself..

That red color part shows, the reason for your cry, sir.

At the end of the day, its all about typical mind set, nothing else.

And all these are not new in India and on DFI.

People dealt with it many times in past too.
 

Scarface

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Any info whether or not the F-35 is being considered for the role ?.There are sources saying MoD isn't very keen on F-16INs because PAF operates them(which they shouldn't be,but I'd take it over Gripen any day) and hence Lockmart is pitching the F-35,but no one from our side has corroborated that.

Gripen is such a honeytrap,they lure you in with that low cost and ToT,trying to divert the attention from it's non-existent combat record and average capabilities
 

rishivashista13

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Any info whether or not the F-35 is being considered for the role ?.There are sources saying MoD isn't very keen on F-16INs because PAF operates them(which they shouldn't be,but I'd take it over Gripen any day) and hence Lockmart is pitching the F-35,but no one from our side has corroborated that.

Gripen is such a honeytrap,they lure you in with that low cost and ToT,trying to divert the attention from it's non-existent combat record and average capabilities
Another strong reason is , F 16 is a 40 year old airframe , which is upgraded to its extent . Today it is good , but in future it can't be upgraded more .

Gripen is a strong and young plateform and it can be upgraded anytime , as required .


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