India's Interest in Lockheed F-35 Fighter

ace009

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Nobody is denying that things have to change drastically. I however have an issue with those that try to take high ground after failing to do a thing to change the situation. Cribbing about things needing to change is easy. Making the change is tough. What was it that Gandhi said again : BE THE CHANGE THAT YOU WANT TO SEE

Blame politicians for the mess? How many of you have taken up politics and tried to make a change? No. Stop complaining then
Blame Infrastructure for the mess? How many of you have taken up administrative services and tried to make a change? No, shut up then
Blame lack of research for the mess? How many of you have done anything with the limited resources available? None, STFU then

How many of you have run away? Many. Stay happy with where you are and what you do. But when you sit in you electrically heated pool mouthing off abuse and trying to justify why you did what you did, or that such and such is what India needs to do to improve, it pisses me and a few others like me off. You want to see change in the country, come back to the country and make those changes, else your just a pussy, so continue with your pussyfooting. Dont advice.
I don't even want to dignify this rant with a response.

back to the topic - what is happening with the N-MMRCA - does anyone know what companies have replied to the RFI?
 

ace009

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To P2Prada - Actually I am pleasantly surprised at what HAL had achieved for the LCA, considering all the gaping holes in it's inventory and skill levels. My support for the LCA or the Arjun is precisely because I HOPE it encourages and motivates people in India to do some actual work and achieve something tangible.
 

sandeepdg

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US wooing India with F-35 5th-Generation fighter offer


NEW DELHI: The US may be bagging lucrative Indian defence deals, notching up sales worth over $11 billion in the military aviation sector alone, but it cannot get over the fact that New Delhi does not want its fighter jets.

Just a couple of days ahead of a crucial Indian defence ministry's meeting, which will set the stage for eventual selection of either Eurofighter Typhoon or French Rafale for IAF's over $10-billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project, the US has again dangled the bait of an advanced 5th-generation fighter before India.

Dubbing as a "setback" the ejection of its F/A-18 `Super Hornets' and F-16 `Falcons' out of the MMRCA race after the technical evaluation, Pentagon on Wednesday told the US Congress that it was prepared to offer its Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) - the F-35 `Lightning-II' - to India. While the F-35 is a generation ahead of the MMRCA contenders, the IAF is looking to order 126 of 4th-Gen-plus fighters like Typhoons or Rafales, with another 63 probably at a later stage that will take the overall project cost to well beyond $20 billion.

India has embarked on the path to co-develop its own 5th-Gen fighter, based on the Russian Sukhoi T-50 prototype, with New Delhi and Moscow inking a $295-million preliminary design contract (PDC) last December.

But with India intending to spend a staggering over $35 billion to induct at least 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat 5th-Gen fighters from 2020 onwards, the US is reluctant to give up easily.

In a report on US-India security cooperation, which otherwise dwelt on the expansive bilateral military ties, Pentagon said, "Despite the (MMRCA) setback, we believe US aircraft, such as JSF, to be the best in the world."

It added, "Should India indicate interest in the JSF, US would be prepared to provide information on the fighter and its requirements (infrastructure, security etc) to support India's future planning."

This is not the first time the F-35 bait has been dangled, but India has refused to bite so far. Senior defence officials say India neither wants nor can afford two types of 5th-Gen fighters. "It would be a financial, maintenance and logistical nightmare. The F-35 programme itself has been hit by huge cost overruns," said a top official.

Another official added, "The crucial full design phase with Russia of our stealth 5th-Gen fighter, the perspective multi-role fighter with supercruise, ultra-manoeuvrability and internal carriage of weapons, will be launched by next June-July."

He said, "Tons of documents are being exchanged. Apart from 40 of our scientists, designers and others being positioned in Russia, secure data links will be established for real-time communication between the two sides. Once the detailed designs are frozen, prototype development and manufacture will begin."

While this 5th-Gen fighter will be the mainstay in the future, the IAF is looking at 270 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia for about $12 billion, the 126 MMRCA and 120 indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, apart from 110 upgraded MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s, to defend the skies in the medium term.

US wooing India with F-35 5th-Generation fighter offer - The Times of India
 

sandeepdg

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The number of F-35 may fall slightly but they'll end up having thousands anyways because the huge fleet of F-16s have to be replaced. The orders for F-35 will easily cross well over 3000. Cant say that the F-35 wont have any TOT because even countries like Turkey are making aircraft sections

http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getasset.aspx?ItemID=33119

There is no reason why a good chunk of the aircraft's parts cant come from India if we buy it. Afterall we are one of the few countries completly manufacturing the Su-30mki 4.5 gen aircraft in our country. TOT will offcourse come if the order is large enough. an order of 200 MRCA F-35 would easily allow for local assembly as well as lots of parts being manufactured in India. Sensitive parts will come from the US but so is the case for the FGFA its critical parts will comes from Russia as well. cant expect them to give away all tech they spend soo much time and money developing. I thinking being part of the F-35 program will bring a lot of good things for us and our industry. Our companies will directly become part of a global supply chain of feeding in high tech components ceratinly to regional customers of the F-35. This will bring in industry maturity. Having an assembly line in India will further reduce the per unit cost of the aircraft for regional customers thus making it more attractive for further purchases.
You have been peddling your theory of 200 F-35 for quite a while now. Do you have any idea of the costs involved ?? Even at 100 million dollars for each, just the buying price alone comes to USD 20 billion, add life cycle costs, weapons, training etc, it will easily add up to another 10-15 billion USD, bring it more or less equal to the 35 billion USD that we are spending on PAK-FA.

Its not about what we want, but whether we can pay for what we want. Indian defense officials have said as in the TOI report I posted, that India neither has the need nor can it afford two types of 5th gen. fighters.
 

ace009

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You have been peddling your theory of 200 F-35 for quite a while now. Do you have any idea of the costs involved ?? Even at 100 million dollars for each, just the buying price alone comes to USD 20 billion, add life cycle costs, weapons, training etc, it will easily add up to another 10-15 billion USD, bring it more or less equal to the 35 billion USD that we are spending on PAK-FA.

Its not about what we want, but whether we can pay for what we want. Indian defense officials have said as in the TOI report I posted, that India neither has the need nor can it afford two types of 5th gen. fighters.
Actually that's not true Sandeep - India DOES HAVE plans for two 5th gen fighters - the AMCA - remember? Question is, does India need to DEVELOP it or can they just acquire it (F-35), which maybe cheaper and surer bet than developing the AMCA.

The AMCA can then be developed as a prototype for a 6th generation fighter - a combat drone.
 
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sandeepdg

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Actually that's not true Sandeep - India DOES HAVE plans for two 5th gen fighters - the AMCA - remember? Question is, does India need to DEVELOP it or can they just acquire it (F-35), which maybe cheaper and surer bet than developing the AMCA.

The AMCA can then be developed as a prototype for a 6th generation fighter - a combat drone.
No, Ace. I think what he meant was that we can't afford nor have the need for two different foreign 5th gen fighters. AMCA is a home grown project. He was specifically comparing the PAK-FA and the F-35.

Anyway, as Adux has quoted previously, I also think that 100 fighters out of the total 300 aircraft that IN wants, the IN can surely consider the F-35. But I think India may not get any deliveries before 2020, since the partner nations that are already committed will surely want priority deliveries, since 3000 birds are on order.
 
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ace009

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No, Ace. I think what he meant was that we can't afford nor have the need for two different foreign 5th gen fighters. AMCA is a home grown project. He was specifically comparing the PAK-FA and the F-35.

Anyway, as Adux has quoted previously, I also think that 100 fighters out of the total 300 aircraft that IN wants, the IN can surely consider the F-35. But I think India may not any deliveries before 2020, since the partner nations that are already committed will surely want priority deliveries, since 3000 birds are on order.
Well, in that case the Naval MMRCA is the ideal place for the F-35C - even 100 of them will give India an edge over anything China can throw up. If the F-35C are delivered by 2022, they will still be way ahead of any AMCA or N-PAKFA. In addition, if MoD is smart, they can get a CATOBAR design from the USA included in the deal as an "offset".
 

sandeepdg

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And yes, there's a plan for N-PAK-FA in Russian Navy. They want them on the refurbished Admiral Kuznetsov AC. These articles are a year old, but I would still like to share them.


Naval variant of Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA

Navalized Sukhoi T-50 PAK FAs to be deployed on the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov. The Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA will be deployed on Admiral Kuzetsov and future Russian Aircraft carriers.

The Fleet Admiral of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov, currently the only aircraft carrier serving as the flagship of the Russian Navy, will be upgraded, the media reported, quoting Navy sources. The aircraft carrier, due to enter in 2012, will be re-launched in 2017.

The Admiral Kuznetsov entered service with the Russian Navy in 1991 and was used for the operation of deck aircraft, the development of new tactics, including those for dealing with carriers of theoretical enemies.In the late 1990s and the early 2000s, it was repeatedly proposed that the Admiral Kuznetsov, which remained inactive for long time periods, be decommissioned and sold for scrap.


However, an improved situation in the country gave the ship a new lease of life. Her propulsion unit and other equipment were repaired, and she started taking part in various high seas war games more often.The upcoming large-scale modernization was motivated by the need to eliminate the ship's inherent drawbacks and to repair some of her units. Plans for docking the ship in 2010-2012 were discussed more frequently and have now been confirmed.The carrier's air wing is to comprise 26 new Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29K,Fulcrum-D multi-role fighter aircraft, helicopters and navalized Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA (Future Frontline Aircraft System) fifth-generation fighters, currently under development.

The Sukhoi PAK FA is a fifth-generation jet fighter being developed by Sukhoi OKB for the Russian Air Force.It appears that 15-20 of these aircrafts will be built pending the ship's re-launching, which is likely to take place in 2020 rather than 2017.

Naval variant of Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA | Defence Aviation
 

sandeepdg

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Fifth Generation Fighter PAK-FA: Induction in Russian Navy not before 2020


The appearance of a fifth generation fighter in Russian naval aviation will not happen before 2020, the outgoing head of the air forces and air defense forces of the Russian Navy, Lt. General Valery Uvarov told RIA Novosti on Tuesday. Previously, representatives of the armed forces command and Defense Ministry had said a new naval fighter based on the Sukhoi T.50 design could enter service around 2016.

"It's difficult to say when this aircraft will enter naval service. First it will go into service with the air force, and then be 'navalized.' To build a new aircraft from scratch costs huge money, it's irrational and not competent. Conditions might be suitable by 2020," he said. Uvarov stressed, however, that any new naval fighter would enter service only following a competition in which other designs would participate, including from the MiG, Yakovlev and Sukhoi design bureaus.

A new generation carrier fighter should enter service with the fleet not long before any new aircraft carrier on which it would be based, Uvarov said, so pilots would be ready. "The aircraft should come before a ship entering service, so pilots can train first on land, then on a special training area, then on deck," he said. He stressed that the service was still waiting to take delivery of the naval MiG-29K, which is being exported to India.

"The first two MiG-29Ks will soon be purchased in order to carry out development of their functions," he said. "I think there should be two squadrons, that is 24 MiG-29Ks and one squadron of Su-33s." The Russian navy is currently reforming its structure, with naval air forces and naval air defense being merged into one branch. Lt. General Uvarov is leaving his post as commander of both branches.

Fifth Generation Fighter PAK-FA: Induction in Russian Navy not before 2020 | India Defence
 

p2prada

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To P2Prada - Actually I am pleasantly surprised at what HAL had achieved for the LCA, considering all the gaping holes in it's inventory and skill levels. My support for the LCA or the Arjun is precisely because I HOPE it encourages and motivates people in India to do some actual work and achieve something tangible.
Let me surprise you a little more,

The LCA's fly by wire was designed and built in the US with Lockheed Martin, the airframe was designed in India but tested in French wind tunnels under contract with them for consultancy, or was that LM again, maybe Northrop I forgot. The engine is General Electric. That's pretty much all that you need to fly. The Naval version has consultants over from EADS.

The radar's processor and software is Israeli.

I am hoping they make something tangible too and they are finally moving in that direction. Give em 10 years to deliver. But don't expect too much right now. Enough rant. No more OT discussion from me.
 

Immanuel

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You have been peddling your theory of 200 F-35 for quite a while now. Do you have any idea of the costs involved ?? Even at 100 million dollars for each, just the buying price alone comes to USD 20 billion, add life cycle costs, weapons, training etc, it will easily add up to another 10-15 billion USD, bring it more or less equal to the 35 billion USD that we are spending on PAK-FA.

Its not about what we want, but whether we can pay for what we want. Indian defense officials have said as in the TOI report I posted, that India neither has the need nor can it afford two types of 5th gen. fighters.
well considering MRCA will easily reach 200, going for F-35 makes sense, it will certainly be cheaper to operate than the Ef or rafale being a single engined fighter. The cost will certainly be lower than the Ef and Rafale including MLU. The US weapons package would be cheaper as well. It would bring capabilities that are adequate for the needs of our defence. Lets not be so naive to expect both Ef and Rafale for less than 100 million a piece, furthermore EU weapons packages are far more expensive. Twin engines would ensure higher operational costs. A delay of 3 years for MRCA wouldnt hurt. Just order more MKI, a couple more squadrons of super MKI certainly would make up for shortages due to delays in MRCA.

250 F-35 with 200 for IAF and 50 for IN is more than enough.
 

ace009

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FGFA is going to do fine with or without catapults. The Su-33 already takes off without it. Catapults are mainly for a higher sortie rate(debatable) and for launching heavier aircraft like the E-2D Hawkeye.
No P2P - the Su-33 never could carry a full load of weapons. It could only carry half the fuel in it's tanks and had a severly limited range. It's simple math - the catapault assists the aircraft to take off with much larger load and thus makes it way more effective. For the FGFA, it will be even more important since you do not want to operate a expensive long-legged 5th generation fighter with half the fuel and bare minimum weapons from a ski-lift aircraft. For any useful purpose, the N-FGFA must be operated from a CATOBAR carrier.


The others haven't yet done it but the Russians have. Note we are making the entire MKI from scratch, we are ahead of the Chinese in this department. The French are willing to provide their M-88 core for the Kaveri program and deals have already been signed. The EF consortium is ready to provide EJ-200 with full ToT.

The FGFA will be 100% ToT with engines and radars. Critics can keep saying otherwise, but we know they will come.



Yes, that's why it takes at least a year or two to absorb technology after it has been built.
No the Russians have not done it. They have refused to do it for the T-90S time and again, which is why the MoD wanted to develop an independant platform for the Arjun and Karan MBTs. What the Russian want to give is knocked down kits shipped to India that are then assembled into a Tank. After much haggling what India got was a single manufacturing process that Indian defense factories operate like a parrot with no chance of modification or actual knowledge transfer beyond the obvious manufacturing protocol. That is ToT in name only.

It will be equivalent to buying raw materials that come as pre-made and pre-cut peices of stell that you can assemble but have no idea how the steel is made or how the engine is designed.

None of the ToT for metallurgy, steel production, design, eetc were transferred. DRDO is doing it's "best" to reinvent the wheel.
 

Tshering22

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^^ I don't think they'd refuse stuff in which we've spent so much money mate. IAF and MOD would do their nut to ensure stuff happens as agreed.
 

sandeepdg

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well considering MRCA will easily reach 200, going for F-35 makes sense, it will certainly be cheaper to operate than the Ef or rafale being a single engined fighter. The cost will certainly be lower than the Ef and Rafale including MLU. The US weapons package would be cheaper as well. It would bring capabilities that are adequate for the needs of our defence. Lets not be so naive to expect both Ef and Rafale for less than 100 million a piece, furthermore EU weapons packages are far more expensive. Twin engines would ensure higher operational costs. A delay of 3 years for MRCA wouldnt hurt. Just order more MKI, a couple more squadrons of super MKI certainly would make up for shortages due to delays in MRCA.

250 F-35 with 200 for IAF and 50 for IN is more than enough.
IAF isn't buying the F-35. They have stated so several times. They are only committed to PAK-FA. MRCA has been more or less finalized, so stop dreaming about this.

The Navy had shown interest previously, and hence the Americans are pitching the F-35 for IN. But it is the Americans who are getting more eager. There's just no official reaction from IN at all. IMHO, even 50 F-35s for the Navy will be more than enough.
 

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If we mess up the current MRCA process, we will be the laughing stock of the world, not that it matters much. We need them. Air Force has a steady plan. While the Navy doesnt. F-35C is from the ground up a Naval Fighter, get it and be done with it.
 

Adux

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Sandeep,

The IN requirement for 100 aircrafts will only come online on 2015, They require it before 2022. Something Lockheed can manage.
The Russian PAK-FA Naval varient aint coming before 2022 for sure. There is not even a prototype as we speak, not even a design .


Prada,

Catapult is not only about sorties, but rather about range and payload. Sortie rate reduces on a catapult. Which is why the US has 4 catapults on a Carrier.
 

Immanuel

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IAF isn't buying the F-35. They have stated so several times. They are only committed to PAK-FA. MRCA has been more or less finalized, so stop dreaming about this.

The Navy had shown interest previously, and hence the Americans are pitching the F-35 for IN. But it is the Americans who are getting more eager. There's just no official reaction from IN at all. IMHO, even 50 F-35s for the Navy will be more than enough.
well IAF now has little to do with the MRCA anymore, if they follow procedure, the EF and Rafale will exceed benchmark price most certainly and that will lead to the entire process going down the drain. It really aint over till the fat lady sings.

F-35 has a way of coming in through the back door. IAF sure wont be happy about the bids being so high but will end up ordering a couple of more squadrons of super mki till F-35 arrives. Its just a quantum leap in capability with a maximum of 3 year delay which can easily be compensated by bringing the su-30mki order book to 300, nice round figure. There is only little increase in capability between rafale/EF and MKI. PAKFA needs a stealthy companion and F-35 is the ideal single engine partner for that. Su-30mki will have the lca mk-2 in partnership and AMCA can go it all alone. Besides ordering the F-35 with whatever TOT comes along will add to our AMCA learning curve together with the PAKFA. AMCA can be the single go alone bird meant to dominate the skies. Best of both worlds.

EF and Rafale are just as expensive and arrive by early 2015 while the F-35 can easily arrive by 2017.
 
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India to open bids for $11bn fighter deal - FT.com


India to open bids for $11bn fighter deal



High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. India to open bids for $11bn fighter deal - FT.com

India will open final bids on Friday in a $11bn fighter jet tender that has the potential to reshape the fortunes of the European defence industry at a time when companies are suffering from cutbacks in their traditional developed markets.

The Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and France's Dassault are competing to build 126 fighter jets to replace India's rapidly ageing and depleted fleet of Russian-made MiG-21s, which comprise up to a third of the country's combat aircraft. A final decision could be made before the end of the year.

Inside Business French defence groups urged to join forces
At the start of 2011, six fighter jets were originally competing for the contract. As well as the Eurofighter Typhoon – built by a consortium of the pan-European EADS, BAE Systems of the UK and Finmeccanica of Italy – Dassault had entered its Rafale jet and the US had two bidders in the form of Lockheed Martin's F-16 and Boeing's F-18 Super Hornet. Sweden's Saab proposed its Gripen jet, while Russia offered the MiG-35.

In April, India shortlisted only two fighters, both of which were European: Dassault's Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon. The decision came as a blow to the US, which had invested considerable energy in its bilateral relationship with India, going as far as assistance with civil nuclear projects. However, the American bids were hampered as they were not offering their most advanced jets and because of strong US controls on the transfer of technology to India.

The Indian deal is of the utmost importance to the makers of the Eurofighter and the Rafale as they seek new export markets to compensate for the falling defence budgets in the developed world.

The Eurofighter consortium is building the Typhoon for its four main customers: the UK, Germany, Spain and Italy. While Austria and Saudi Arabia also operate the jet, there are at present no other firm export orders for the Typhoon. While Eurofighter is promoting the jet in Malaysia, South Korea and Japan, the Indian contract is the most promising.

For Dassault, the stakes are perhaps even higher. The Rafale is itself the result of a decision by France to pull out of a pan-European project with Germany, the UK, Spain and Italy to share the development costs of a new fighter that ultimately became the Typhoon.

Dassault's other combat jets such as the Mirage are used by foreign air forces, including India, which decided in July to upgrade their fleet of Mirage 2000s. But Dassault has had more trouble securing interest in the Rafale, which has no customers outside France, although it is hoping to secure sales in Brazil and the United Arab Emirates.

Once the sealed bids are known, the Indian Ministry of Defence will start calculating the life-cycle cost of the aircraft, the acquisition cost and military "offset" considerations. These offsets include the amount of technology that European companies will disclose to India and the share of investment they will bring to India's defence industries if they are chosen.

The impending decision has not prevented the US making a last-ditch effort to promote some of its more modern aircraft technology to India. This week the Pentagon told Congress it was prepared to provide information to India about the F-35 Lightning II, a so-called fifth-generation fighter produced by Lockheed Martin.
European defence companies have expressed concern the US might try to short-circuit the bidding process with a new offer outside the terms of the competition.
 

ace009

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I wonder why the sudden desperation from Pentagon? Are they still pining for the MMRCA contract? They had 4 years to work on it and they choose the last week? or are they looking at the 100 fighter Naval-MMRCA contest that's coming up? Maybe they feel that if the Rafale is chosen for MMRCA then the M-Rafale will get the N-MMRCA too.
On the other hand if the EF gets MMRCA then the f-35 has much more chance for N-MMRCA. Maybe LM should stand behind EADS and help push the EF ... :D
 

Adux

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well IAF now has little to do with the MRCA anymore, if they follow procedure, the EF and Rafale will exceed benchmark price most certainly and that will lead to the entire process going down the drain. It really aint over till the fat lady sings.

F-35 has a way of coming in through the back door. IAF sure wont be happy about the bids being so high but will end up ordering a couple of more squadrons of super mki till F-35 arrives. Its just a quantum leap in capability with a maximum of 3 year delay which can easily be compensated by bringing the su-30mki order book to 300, nice round figure. There is only little increase in capability between rafale/EF and MKI. PAKFA needs a stealthy companion and F-35 is the ideal single engine partner for that. Su-30mki will have the lca mk-2 in partnership and AMCA can go it all alone. Besides ordering the F-35 with whatever TOT comes along will add to our AMCA learning curve together with the PAKFA. AMCA can be the single go alone bird meant to dominate the skies. Best of both worlds.

EF and Rafale are just as expensive and arrive by early 2015 while the F-35 can easily arrive by 2017.

F-35 cannot fulfill ToT and domestic production, therefore cannot replace current MMRCA candidates
 

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