India's Interest in Lockheed F-35 Fighter

Adux

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Why are we talking about this in a F-35 thread
 
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AFP: US ready to sell F-35 fighter to India: Pentagon

US ready to sell F-35 fighter to India: Pentagon


WASHINGTON — The United States would be prepared to sell India the new F-35 fighter jet, the Pentagon said Wednesday, after New Delhi rejected a US offer of older aircraft in a major competition this year.

In a report to Congress on US defense ties with India, the Pentagon said India was a vital partner and that Washington wanted to bolster security cooperation with New Delhi, including joint exercises and high-tech arms sales.

In the first round of a contest for a combat aircraft contract, India in April shortlisted France's Dassault and the European Eurofighter consortium while rejecting the US offer of F-16 and F-18 jets.

"Despite this setback, we believe US aircraft, such as the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), to be the best in the world," said the Pentagon report, referring to the radar-evading F-35 jet.

"Should India indicate interest in the JSF, the United States would be prepared to provide information on the JSF and its requirements... to support India's future planning," it said.

Mindful of China's rise and growing military reach, President Barack Obama has placed a high priority on deepening ties with India.

The US-India defense relationship has expanded rapidly over the past decade and the administration sees India as a natural partner and global "player," Robert Scher, deputy assistant secretary of defense for South and Southeast Asia, told reporters.

India has made no request for more information on the F-35 but the US invitation was "an example of the high regard that we hold India's military modernization," Scher said.

In the April contest for a new multi-role fighter for India, Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon beat out US aerospace giants Boeing and Lockheed Martin as well as Sweden's Saab AB and the Russian makers of the MiG 35.

The US report noted that India is working with Russia on developing a fifth-generation fighter aircraft.

The Pentagon touts the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter as the premier fifth-generation fighter equipped with stealth technology, but the program faces rising costs, with a price tag of nearly $150 million each.

The two US senators that asked the Defense Department for the report welcomed the document but said Washington needed to work to expand its security relationship with India.

"While the report shows that tremendous progress has been made in military-to-military relations over the past ten years, we believe that there is much more that can be done," Senator Joe Lieberman said in a statement.
 

Damian

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Of course You don't want and need a 5th generation multirole fighter with real Stealth capabilities based on years of experience, research and development, fighter that have the most advanced electrooptical sensor (EOTS) and one of the most innovative and uniqe spheric observation and fire control system called DAS, that permitts to fire missiles even backwards, to the sides, down top, without having target in front of machine nose.

Who needs such advanced machine?

Sarcasm mode off.
 

The Messiah

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Of course You don't want and need a 5th generation multirole fighter with real Stealth capabilities based on years of experience, research and development, fighter that have the most advanced electrooptical sensor (EOTS) and one of the most innovative and uniqe spheric observation and fire control system called DAS, that permitts to fire missiles even backwards, to the sides, down top, without having target in front of machine nose.

Who needs such advanced machine?

Sarcasm mode off.
This is similar to your stance on the EU.

Dont want it because the yanks wont share the source code, they ask that there personnel be stationed along with the aircraft so that they can only repair, be on there mercy for spare parts, ask there permission before using there plane etc

I haven't even gone into the costs and the plane yet.

We dont like being dictated by others or asking permission.
 

civfanatic

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Of course You don't want and need a 5th generation multirole fighter with real Stealth capabilities based on years of experience, research and development, fighter that have the most advanced electrooptical sensor (EOTS) and one of the most innovative and uniqe spheric observation and fire control system called DAS, that permitts to fire missiles even backwards, to the sides, down top, without having target in front of machine nose.

Who needs such advanced machine?


What happened to all the Western cries of "India should spend billions on poverty instead of buying advanced weaponry!!!11!!" :laugh:

We are getting PAKFA/FGFA which is more than enough for our defence needs.
 

The Messiah

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What happened to all the Western cries of "India should spend billions on poverty instead of buying advanced weaponry!!!11!!" :laugh:

We are getting PAKFA/FGFA which is more than enough for our defence needs.
That is only when we spend money on indigenous things like DRDO, ISRO or F1 track etc. As long as the money is flowing into the pockets of the west then the poor can go and get fucked. :)
 
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original offer

..:: India Strategic ::.. Indian Navy: US offers F 35 to India as India-US Defence Cooperation grows

US offers F35JSF to India as India-US Defence Cooperation grows
But Tehcnology Transfer will be an issue




New Delhi. The India-US defence cooperation seems to be steadily growing with Washington now offering its latest Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) F-35 Lightning-II aircraft to India. But in the long run, there could be limitations over issues of Transfer of Technology (ToT) that India mandates now for major arms deals.


Representatives of Lockheed Martin, which is developing the aircraft, have indicated in the past that the aircraft could be available to India if the Indian Air Force (IAF) opted for the F-16 Super Viper in its quest for some 200 Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MRCAs) but recently, the company made a presentation to the Indian Navy without this condition.

Lockheed Martin's Vice President for Business Development Orville Prins told India Strategic that a presentation about the aircraft was made to the Indian Navy recently after it expressed interest in the newer generation of aircraft for its future carrier-based aircraft requirements.

The Indian Navy is buying 45 Mig 29Ks for the Gorshkov, or INS Vikramaditya, which it will get from Russia in 2012 and its first indigenous aircraft carrier. But for its second indigenous carrier, and possibly more in the future, the Navy is looking for a newer generation of aircraft as the carrier itself is likely to be bigger.

Although the best of the weapon systems in the US are developed by private companies, the funding for their research and development is provided by the Government which exercises full control on the resultant products and their sale to any foreign country. ToT is a serious issue and in most cases, technology, particularly source codes, is not shared even with Washington's best allies in the West or East.

Lockheed Martin apparently made the presentation to India after authorization by the US Department of Defense (DOD), but Prins pointed out that the F 35 could be sold only after clearance from the US State Department, for which bilateral negotiations between New Delhi and Washington would need to be held once India expressed interest.

The US is steadily emerging as a new supplier of sophisticated arms to India, which urgently needs to replace and augment its mostly outdated Soviet-vintage systems with high technology weapons of the 21st century.

Beginning 2002, when an agreement for the sale of 12 Raytheon's artillery and short-range missile tracker system, the AN/TPQ 37 Weapon Locating Radars (WLRs) was signed, the US has supplied systems worth nearly US $ 4 billion.

It's not much compared to what India still spends on defence trade with Russia but it is a significant beginning.

Over the last few weeks, the Indian Ministry of Defence has sent firm orders, or Letters of Request (LoR) for 10 C 17 Globemaster III strategic lift aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and 145 M 777 ultra light howitzers the Indian Army badly needs for its mountain operations.

The competing gun from Singapore Technologies Kinetics (STK) lost out as the company was mired in allegations of corruption in an Indian Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) scam. (STK is among the half a dozen Indian and international companies with whom business has been put on hold pending Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) clearance; they are not blacklisted as some have reported).

BAE Systems, primarily a British firm with commercial and manufacturing interests in the US and elsewhere, had not taken part in the tender for ultra light guns initially, although it wanted to enter the race later. Its absence in the commercial competition process helped it win the requirement.

BAE Systems developed the titanium alloy M777 in Britain but manufactures it in the US, from where it has been supplied extensively in the tough Afghan mountainous terrain against the Taliban terrorists. It is easily ferried by Boeing's Chinook helicopters, which are also being considered for acquisition by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

BAE Systems also owns the Swedish Bofors, which has changed many hands since the 1980s. It was acquired by the Swedish Government, then sold to the United Defense of USA, and finally landed in the BAE lap.

In fact, as the US Administration had imposed restrictions on the sale of military equipment to India after the 1998 nuclear tests, President Bill Clinton went out of the way in 2000 to allow United Defense-Bofors an exception to sell its guns to India if the Indian Army opted for them. BAE is now in the race to sell upgraded versions of Bofors as well as to modernize the 410 units that the Indian Army had bought.

Allegations of corruption in the acquisition of 15mm FH 77B guns (howitzers) notwithstanding, the Bofors guns proved their worth in the 1999 Kargil War to evict the intruding Pakistani Army from the heights it had infiltrated into and occupied.

India has also deployed this gun at the highest battlefield in the world at Siachin. Ferrying them to those daunting heights in parts and then assembling them has been a tremendous job by itself for the Army.

LORs for both the C 17 and M 777 have been issued only in January 2010.

India has less than 20 IL 76 Soviet-supplied Il-76 heavy lift or strategic lift aircraft, which will mark 25 years of their induction in April 2010.

Although a fuel-guzzler, the IL 76 has served the IAF well and still has a residual life of 10 to 15 years with some periodic modifications as the IAF has utilized it carefully. Manufactured in Uzbekistan, which was a part of the Soviet Union, the IL 76 is now out of production and most of its existing serviceable units have been acquired by China.

There is no matching aircraft to replace the IL 76, the closest being the C 17, although bigger aircraft are available from both the US and Russia.

The C 17 has nearly double the capacity of an IL 76, but according to Air Marshal Ashok Goel, a veteran of IAF's transport fleet, full load on an aircraft is never really carried as it hinders its range and fuel capacity.

Unlike the IL 76 though, the C 17 can be refueled midair for much longer flights, and needs only two pilots and one loadmaster for operations, that is half the crew of what the IL 76 requires (seven).

Despite its massive size, the C 17 can take off and land on unpaved grassy fields like a football ground at very steep angles, an important capability in battle conditions. India Strategic's News Editor Nitin Luthra, who had the opportunity to fly in the C 17 at the Paris Air Show, had described its short takeoff capability as "simply amazing."

Although India has placed a firm order for only 10 C 17s, with no options for now, Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal P V Naik had told India Strategic that IAF was looking at 20 aircraft.

Notably, IAF had also placed an order for six C 130J Special Operations aircraft with an option for six more in 2008 with the US Lockheed Martin. A smaller aircraft than the C 17, it is also highly capable and can operate from small grassy fields to quickly get away after loading or unloading. Lockheed Martin has offered to transfer the manufacturing facility to India if 40 or 50 aircraft are ordered for military and civil use, particularly in the mountainous north-east regions.

The Border Security Force (BSF) is also considering to buy one or two C 130Js, albeit without some specialized systems that the IAF needs.

The F 35 JSF is a Fifth Generation aircraft, to be used by the US Air Force, Navy and Marines. It will perhaps be the last manned aircraft by that country before unmanned, high-powered long-range drones and helicopters fully take over the skies by the middle of this century.

The USAF is already conducting joint manned and unmanned combat operations in Afghanistan with Global Hawk and Reaper drones, clearly indicating the gradual transition underway, and refining the technology from actual, real-time warfare experience.

The unmanned systems, controlled from airbases in the US itself on the other side of the globe, are both reconnaissance and armed, and their use has increased in the recent years to neutralize terrorists in the troubled mountainous region on both sides of the Afghan-Pakistan border.

India has opted to buy drones from Israel, and there is also effort underway to develop an indigenous armed version, given the interest by IAF in this regard. It will be interesting to see if the US, which is the only country using drones in day to day war, will share some technology with India.

The F 35 is a single-engine, single-seat stealth aircraft, being developed with several foreign partners to help reduce development and production costs, and is still being tested for its varied capabilities. It will be available in conventional takeoff and landing mode as well as in short-take-off-and-vertical-landing (STOVL) for carrier landings.

Thanks to the numbers, it could cost as low as $ 50 million only per unit, or the price of a modern Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) despite its highly advanced features.

The JSF 35B conducted its first STOVL propulsion test in flight for the first time on Jan 7 at the Naval Air Station (NAS) Patuxent River, and it will be some time before it goes into production. Its programme partner countries include Britain, Italy, Netherlands, Canada, Turkey, Australia, Norway, Denmark , Singapore and Israel, all of whom would possibly supply some components, and investments.

Whether India joins the production programme or not is an open question, depending upon the numbers required. The Indian Navy cannot have a large requirement and the Indian Air Force is already committed to buying the similar but perhaps more expensive Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) to be jointly produced by Russia's Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association (KNAPPO) – which produces SU 30 jets – and India's HAL.

The Russians have done substantial work in this regard, and hope to fly its single seat version by 2015-16 while the IAF hopes to induct its two-seat version by 2017. IAF wants the second seat "missionised" for weapon operations for the co-pilot, a practice that the Israelis have also opted for in their F-16 aircraft.

China, which has been accused of stealing technology by Russia, is also trying to develop a 5th generation fighter.

In any case, it's a question of time when the environment in the strategic Indian Ocean region, and around India, is filled by the likes of stealth and futuristic aircraft. Lockheed Martin hopes to be around for that time, and, says Orville Prins, "we are making the offer well ahead in that perspective."

However, the Americans had proved to be unreliable in the 1960s when they made several promises for equipment after the 1962 Chinese aggression on India and did not fulfill them. Driven by its Cold War strategies and regional military alliances like SEATO and CENTO, the US always supplied the best of its weapons to Pakistan, forcing India to follow. For instance, Pakistan was the first country in South Asia to get hi-tech weapons in the 1980s when the US gave it F 16 warjets, Harpoon anti-shipping missiles, P-3C Orion Maritime Surveillance and Attack aircraft as well as Command, Control and Communications and Intelligence (C3I) computers.

India had to follow with Mirage 2000 aircraft from France and Mig 29s from the Soviet Union.

The geopolitical realities have perhaps changed and the US is willing to offer some of its best technologies.

Indeed, the US has been steadily opening its stable of sophisticated weapons to India. After the sale of Raytheon's WLRs, which was actually the first combat system under the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) received from the US after India's nuclear tests in 1974 and 1998, the US has also sold eight highly advanced Boeing P8-I Multi-mission Maritime Aircraft (MMA) to the Indian Navy to patrol the Indian Ocean. The aircraft is still under development, and significantly, will be available to the Indian Navy nearly at the same time as to the US Navy, which has paid for its development.

This was preceded by the transfer of an old amphibious ship, USS Trenton, renamed INS Jalashwa, and its six onboard Sikorsky utility helicopters at nominal costs for the Indian Navy.

The P8-I is the most hi-tech system yet to be acquired by India, and according to Boeing's Integrated Defense Systems India Head, Dr Vivek Lall, "its sale is unprecedented" in terms of US transfer of technology.

In August last year, another US arms major, Northrop Grumman, also offered its futuristic Hawkeye 2-D combat management aircraft to the Indian Navy. This aircraft is also under development and it India opts to buy it, then this system will also be available to the Indian Navy nearly at the same time as the US Navy.

The P8-I deal is the biggest yet at $ 2.1 billion, while the other major deal for C 130Js has been placed at nearly $ one billion. The 145 M777 guns are around S 650 million while the 10 C 17s could be between $ 2.5 to 3 billion. IAF has also bought three Boeing Business Jets for VIP travel worth around $ 220 million.

The deal for the 10 C 17s, which was formally announced by Boeing from Long Beach. California on Jan 8, would be bigger than that of the P8-Is, depending upon the configuration and requirements of the Indian Air Force. No details are available.

Notably, Boeing and Lockheed Martin have also fielded their respective F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-16 Super Viper combat jets to India in the six-cornered MRCA competition, but the US has also added other sophisticated systems like the Lockheed Martin's Aegis shipboard anti-missile system, which had been used two years ago to shoot down a satellite in space with precision as part of an apparent technology demonstration.

Orville Prins said that presentation on the Aegis system had also been made to the Indian Navy and the Ministry of Defence.

On offer are also some of the best precision missiles and engagement systems from Raytheon, which does not make any platforms but builds onboard capabilities.

Sources say that it is also offering its latest Airborne Standoff Radar (ASTOR), which is perhaps the latest in Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) technology, to India. The system has been fielded in Afghanistan by the British forces only last year.

Raytheon has been mentioning its Patriot anti-missile system but as yet, it has no formal clearance from the US government to offer it to India. Informal presentations have been made though.

Notably, most of the combat systems with the Indian Armed Forces are either old or outdated. For instance, except for the Su 30MKI combat aircraft, all the fighter and transport aircraft with the Indian Air Force are at least 20 years old.

The emphasis now is more on onboard precision engagement technology as the key to modern warfare and defence.

The US has that.

But how far India goes in buying the US systems will largely depend not only on the technology and price offered, but also on the Transfer of Technology (ToT) that most major deals now warrant as a policy.
 

Damian

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This is similar to your stance on the EU.

Dont want it because the yanks wont share the source code, they ask that there personnel be stationed along with the aircraft so that they can only repair, be on there mercy for spare parts, ask there permission before using there plane etc

I haven't even gone into the costs and the plane yet.

We dont like being dictated by others or asking permission.
So this is why negotations were made in the past, to negotiate deal, if deal will not meet Your needs, then You just resign from it... a real capitalism is a solutions for probably most if not all problems. Don't like one offer, You are looking for different and better one.

What happened to all the Western cries of "India should spend billions on poverty instead of buying advanced weaponry!!!11!!" :laugh:
I do not care what left wing morons in western countries are talking about, internal problems of India are internal problems of India, untill they are not hitting us directly we should not care about them. We shoukd only care about how to make money and how to grow in power, this are the ultimate goals of all countries, political, military or economical blocks.

Over all these "humans rights" are overused.
 

SHASH2K2

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I dont fucking understand what TOT is all about. no country will give access to any critical technology or manufacturing knowhow .we will only get assembling experience. what TOT we will get from Mirage upgrade or with other USA weapons thats already ordered.:laugh:
 
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USA keen to discuss F-35 with India, report says

USA keen to discuss F-35 with India, report says

The USA is still interested in pitching the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) to India, as New Delhi prepares to open the commercial bids in its 126-aircraft medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition.

In a nine-page report on the Washington/Delhi defence relationship, the US Department of Defense highlighted increasingly close military ties between the two countries, with an emphasis on procurement, joint exercises and personnel exchanges.

"What was once a nascent relationship between unfamiliar nations has now evolved into a strategic relationship between two of the pre-eminent security powers in Asia," said the report. "Today, US-India defence ties are strong and growing."

The report acknowledged that the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Lockheed F-16 Block 60 were eliminated from the MMRCA competition in April.

It also noted that India is working with Russia on the Sukhoi/Hindustan Aeronautics fifth-generation fighter aircraft, a two-seat variant of the former's developmental PAK-FA.

"Despite [the MMRCA] setback, we believe US aircraft, such as the Joint Strike Fighter, to be the best in the world," said the report. "Should India indicate interest in the JSF, the US would be prepared to provide information on the JSF and its requirements (infrastructure, security) to support India's future planning."

The timing of the report is interesting. Indian media reports have suggested that in early November New Delhi will open the commercial bids for the shortlisted MMRCA aircraft, the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale. Since the elimination of the two US-backed aircraft from the contest there has been periodic media speculation that Washington will offer the F-35 as a late-coming contender. However, India's defence ministry has never acknowledged the F-35 as an MMRCA candidate.

The US noted that India has signed more than 20 Foreign Military Sales contracts worth a combined $6 billion in the past 10 years. These have included deals for six Lockheed C-130J tactical transports, Boeing's Harpoon anti-ship missile and Textron Defense Systems' CBU-97 Sensor Fused Weapon, plus self-protection equipment for VVIP aircraft. India is also in the process of acquiring 10 Boeing C-17 strategic transports.

"Once the C-17 contract is fulfilled, India will operate the second-largest fleet of C-17s in the world," said the report.

However, the document fails to mention India's conceptual medium combat aircraft (MCA), a type conceived with similar characteristics to the F-35.

Speaking at the Aero India show in Bengaluru in March, P S Subramanyam, programme director at India's Aeronautical Development Agency, told Flightglobal a feasibility study on the aircraft would be submitted to the Indian government at the end of 2011.

"The MCA will be in flight trials by the end of the decade, and it will be inducted by the middle of the next decade," said Subramanyam.
 
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US pushing to sell radar-evading F-35 fighter jets to India | Firstpost

US pushing to sell radar-evading F-35 fighter jets to India


New York: The Pentagon submitted a Congressionally-mandated review of defence ties with New Delhi on Tuesday and expressed eagerness to sell Lockheed Martin's super advanced F-35 Joint Strike Fighters to India.

With an eye on China, the US has been keen to press for closer military co-operation with India. New Delhi, though, prefers to hedge its bets. In late April, despite personal lobbying by President Barack Obama, New Delhi eliminated the top two US contenders — Lockheed's F-16 jet fighter and Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet— from its shortlist of suppliers for the air force's $11 billion fourth generation of advanced fighter jets.

F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Lockheed Martin

Aircraft on the shortlist were Dassault Aviation SA's Rafale and the Eurofighter made by BAE Systems, Finmeccanica SpA and European Aeronautic, Defence & Space Co.

Shocked by the Indian rejection, the powerful Senate Armed Services Committee, which oversees the US Department of Defence, ordered the Pentagon to submit a report by November 1 on the state of India-US defence ties. It also asked for a detailed assessment on the "desirability and feasibility" of the future sale of F-35s to India, and a potential US partnership with New Delhi to co-develop military weapon systems.

"Should India indicate interest in the JSF, the United States would be prepared to provide information on the JSF and its requirements," the Defence Department said in a nine-page report.

The eye-popping price tag for individual F-35 joint strike fighters — range from $75 million to $150 million, depending upon the estimate. On the upside, the pricey but highly automated F-35 will likely lead to fewer human-error or "pilot-distraction" crashes.

The F-35 is fitted with radar-evading stealth technology and is a multi-role fighter jet that can carry out tactical bombing and air defence missions.

"The F-35 is a fifth generation fighter that will provide the Indian Air Force with a quantum leap in capability and mission execution across the full spectrum of conflict," a US defence official told Firstpost, asking not to be named.

The Ministry of Defence is ambivalent about the F-35, because of New Delhi's preliminary design contract for co-development of a fifth-generation fighter recently signed with Moscow. Russia's Sukhoi and India's Hindustan Aeronautics are developing a fighter based on Sukhoi's T-50 design at a cost of $6 billion. Russia is planning to use the jointly-developed fighter as an export version of T-50, while India is expecting the aircraft to enter its fleet by 2020.

America doesn't want Russia to steal the march and is keeping the window for US-India collaboration open. India is happy playing the field. New Delhi has urged the US to give it more access to technology so that the two countries can develop weapons together, especially in the aerospace sphere.

"The US wants to develop deeper defence industrial cooperation with India, including a range of cooperative research and development," said the Pentagon report. "The US is committed to providing India with top-of-the-line technology."

India has begun to modernize its old, Soviet-era military equipment and diversify its weapons supply base. It recently made top-dollar purchases of US military transport and reconnaissance aircraft.

The Pentagon report also says that US efforts for the next five years will place particular emphasis on "maritime security, counter-terrorism activities and expanding defence trade and armaments cooperation." Washington sees New Delhi as a key security partner in the Indian Ocean region, increasingly joining with the US military in use of force planning to address regional contingencies.
 
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Weapon and Technology: US offers F-35 to India again

us-offers-f-35-to-india-again





Although the US lost out in the bid to sell India 126 multi-role combat jets, it has offered New Delhi "top-of-the-line technology", including "the best in the world" Joint Strike Fighter (JSF).

"The US F-16 and F-18 competed, but were not down-selected, in the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition in April 2011," the US defence department said in a report to the US Congress on US-India Security Cooperation.

"Despite this setback, we believe US aircraft, such as the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), to be the best in the world," said the Pentagon report prepared in response to a request from the powerful Senate Armed Services Committee on a five-year action plan to strengthen bilateral defence relations.

"Should India indicate interest in the JSF, the United States would be prepared to provide information on the JSF and its requirements (infrastructure, security, etc.) to support India's future planning."

India has demonstrated its interest in upgrading its inventory of fighter aircraft, the report said noting "It intends to purchase 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft and is working with Russia on the development of the Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

The department of defence, along with the departments of state and commerce, will advocate for US solutions to Indian defence needs, it said. "We recognize that India is also seeking to build its own indigenous defence industry, and is looking for the best technologies to use in its defence sector.

"The United States wants to develop deeper defence industrial cooperation with India, including a range of cooperative research and development activities," it said asserting, "The United States is committed to providing India with top-of-the-line technology."

The department of defence is continually looking for ways to expand defence cooperation with India, the report said. "We are seeking opportunities for increased science and technology cooperation that may lead to co-development opportunities with India as a partner."

"The United States has taken many steps in recent years to facilitate science and technology and research and development cooperation with India," the report said.

"In so doing, we have signalled our unambiguous intent to pursue cooperative opportunities on increasingly sophisticated systems," it said suggesting, "As our relationship continues to mature, we expect co-development of armaments to become a reality."

Over the next five years, the United States "will continue to establish itself as a reliable defence supplier to India and look for opportunities to enable further training and exchanges between our militaries as India continues its military modernization," the report said.
 

The Messiah

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How many articles are there ?

It seems the yanks are getting desperate.
 

SHASH2K2

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One thing is certain. Ajay Shukla is on LM payrole. he writes an article and this news comes out. it cant be just coincidence. I seriously doubt success of AMCA now. LCA is all screwed up . If there is even a single doubt about AMCA we should also go for F35 . T50 is not fully stealth and F35 will fill in that gap.
 

ace009

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Sorry for going OT for a long time in this thread - I will do a little OT rant for a paragraph before moving on to the topic. The comparison of India's nascent economy and technology as a rival to the US economy and technology always gets my goat. For all the people who live in that utopic world, I want to rant on and on about the vast gulf that still exists and will exist for another 50 years or so between the USA and India. The USA has the largest R&D brain bank in the world, not to mention the very best also flock to here. In my own way, I want to see India gain the same level of expertise and technological help that Israel has gained from the USA. Or Japan or S Korea has gained from the USA ...

As for the F-35, as I have mentioned in numerous posts, for India's future naval fighter, the choices are pretty limited. The Naval LCA is not a real long term, viable choice. It's small, does not have adequate range or weapons load and will be very difficult to develop into an omnirole naval fighter to be operated from a CATOBAR carrier. It is a novel experience for DRDO and IN. On the Gorshkov and IAC-1 it will be a good second line fighter behind the Mig-29K, which is a good fighter for now, but with limited future itself. Even for the Russian Navy, it was but a second choice and they are looking at the LMFS to replace the Mig-29K in the future. Also, the very survival of MiG as an organization is in question, making the Mig-29K to be a dead end in the medium to long term.
Which leaves India with the following other choices -
The 4.5 generation options -
1. M-Rafale - a good choice, provided France does not rip us off just as they did for the Submarines and the Mirage upgrades (Armand's protests notwithstanding). But again, it is not a real 5th generation fighter, and will be superseded by 5th generation fighters by 2020.
2. Sea-Gripen - a no show considering no one wants to buy it, including the host country, Sweden, who have no carriers or plans for one. 3. The Sea-Typhoon - again a no show considering UK and Italy is opting for the F-35C for their future carriers and the Germans have no plans for a carrier version.

The 5th generation options -
1. AMCA - Till date a no show considering no design plans have been finalized, three different models have been displayed in as many eyears as "wind tunnel versions". If India wants a new naval fighter by 2020, AMCA is not it.
2. F-35C - Already operational as the F35A version - the F-35C version will start production by 2015, making it the 2nd 5th generation platform overall and the 1st naval 5th generation fighter of all times. Coming from LM with F-22 experience, by far the best option.
3. N-FGFA - a naval version of the FGFA is theoretically possible, but will DEFINITELY require a CATOBAR platform, preferably a EMALS one considering the enormous weight and size of the plane. Also the host carrier should be large enough to house a significant number of these. Add to this the lack of any initiative from Sukhoi in designing a naval version as yet, this one borders on a no show.

So, the real choice is M-Rafale and F-35C - as we have discussed several times before. If IN wants a naval MMRCA really quick, which they are confident they can replace with another 5th generation fighter by 2030 (N-AMCA) then they should defnitely buy the M-Rafale.
On the other hand, if IN wants to have a 5th generation fighter by 2020 which will serve them beyond 2040, and maybe till 2050, then they should definitely go for the F-35C.

As for ToT, I am not sure what people expect. No country including Russia, Israel, France, Britain etc give their core technologies when they sell their products. Also, knowledge sharing at that level is not simple. Even in my field I can teach someone how to build or prepare some technology using our systems, but without a similar infrastructure, they will never attain the quality or the capabilities that they learn here. At which point the accusation would be that the Yankees are trying to sell their "manufacturing equipment" to us too. Point is, the R&D and Manufacturing techniques are built around existing infrastructure, which themselves are valuable pieces of technology, built around other similar pieces of technology needed to support these. If you start in that path then it is like an onion, with layers and layers of intellectual property wrapped around each layer. Why and how can you acquire them by just buying one piece of equipment or technology?

If MoD and GoI is smart, they will identify the key pieces of technology missing in India and collaborate with Western nations and companies to acquire that specific piece along with an expensive platform. Asking for en masse ToT is naive and jingoistic ...

Metallurgy, Steel production, manufacturing precision, mass production, quality control and on and on - there are so many things that DRDO and HAL lack - they can acquire them piecemeal if they are smart. But they have to go to the right people and ask the right questions ...
 

trackwhack

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Sorry for going OT for a long time in this thread - I will do a little OT rant for a paragraph before moving on to the topic. The comparison of India's nascent economy and technology as a rival to the US economy and technology always gets my goat. For all the people who live in that utopic world, I want to rant on and on about the vast gulf that still exists and will exist for another 50 years or so between the USA and India. The USA has the largest R&D brain bank in the world, not to mention the very best also flock to here. In my own way, I want to see India gain the same level of expertise and technological help that Israel has gained from the USA. Or Japan or S Korea has gained from the USA ...

As for the F-35, as I have mentioned in numerous posts, for India's future naval fighter, the choices are pretty limited. The Naval LCA is not a real long term, viable choice. It's small, does not have adequate range or weapons load and will be very difficult to develop into an omnirole naval fighter to be operated from a CATOBAR carrier. It is a novel experience for DRDO and IN. On the Gorshkov and IAC-1 it will be a good second line fighter behind the Mig-29K, which is a good fighter for now, but with limited future itself. Even for the Russian Navy, it was but a second choice and they are looking at the LMFS to replace the Mig-29K in the future. Also, the very survival of MiG as an organization is in question, making the Mig-29K to be a dead end in the medium to long term.
Which leaves India with the following other choices -
The 4.5 generation options -
1. M-Rafale - a good choice, provided France does not rip us off just as they did for the Submarines and the Mirage upgrades (Armand's protests notwithstanding). But again, it is not a real 5th generation fighter, and will be superseded by 5th generation fighters by 2020.
2. Sea-Gripen - a no show considering no one wants to buy it, including the host country, Sweden, who have no carriers or plans for one. 3. The Sea-Typhoon - again a no show considering UK and Italy is opting for the F-35C for their future carriers and the Germans have no plans for a carrier version.

The 5th generation options -
1. AMCA - Till date a no show considering no design plans have been finalized, three different models have been displayed in as many eyears as "wind tunnel versions". If India wants a new naval fighter by 2020, AMCA is not it.
2. F-35C - Already operational as the F35A version - the F-35C version will start production by 2015, making it the 2nd 5th generation platform overall and the 1st naval 5th generation fighter of all times. Coming from LM with F-22 experience, by far the best option.
3. N-FGFA - a naval version of the FGFA is theoretically possible, but will DEFINITELY require a CATOBAR platform, preferably a EMALS one considering the enormous weight and size of the plane. Also the host carrier should be large enough to house a significant number of these. Add to this the lack of any initiative from Sukhoi in designing a naval version as yet, this one borders on a no show.

So, the real choice is M-Rafale and F-35C - as we have discussed several times before. If IN wants a naval MMRCA really quick, which they are confident they can replace with another 5th generation fighter by 2030 (N-AMCA) then they should defnitely buy the M-Rafale.
On the other hand, if IN wants to have a 5th generation fighter by 2020 which will serve them beyond 2040, and maybe till 2050, then they should definitely go for the F-35C.

As for ToT, I am not sure what people expect. No country including Russia, Israel, France, Britain etc give their core technologies when they sell their products. Also, knowledge sharing at that level is not simple. Even in my field I can teach someone how to build or prepare some technology using our systems, but without a similar infrastructure, they will never attain the quality or the capabilities that they learn here. At which point the accusation would be that the Yankees are trying to sell their "manufacturing equipment" to us too. Point is, the R&D and Manufacturing techniques are built around existing infrastructure, which themselves are valuable pieces of technology, built around other similar pieces of technology needed to support these. If you start in that path then it is like an onion, with layers and layers of intellectual property wrapped around each layer. Why and how can you acquire them by just buying one piece of equipment or technology?

If MoD and GoI is smart, they will identify the key pieces of technology missing in India and collaborate with Western nations and companies to acquire that specific piece along with an expensive platform. Asking for en masse ToT is naive and jingoistic ...

Metallurgy, Steel production, manufacturing precision, mass production, quality control and on and on - there are so many things that DRDO and HAL lack - they can acquire them piecemeal if they are smart. But they have to go to the right people and ask the right questions ...
The problem with your approach is India will always be 50 years behind in tech. I'd rather not waste time. We are a much stronger economy now and can afford research, something that came at a premium earlier.

Regarding the Civic, I did not ask you to give me specs, but since you like to blatantly mislead let me state it loud and clear for you. The Indian 12 lac Civic is an automatic tranny, leather upholstry, front and rear disc, alloy wheeled elegant machine. The 18K Civic you quoted is a manual tranny, fabric upholstry, plastic wheeled, rear drum break peice of crap. When you match the specs, you end up paying $26K for the same machine. a small matter of Rs 1 lac. go figure.
 

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