India yet to tap diaspora well, unlike China

amoy

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"Nationalism" hardly appeals to new generations of overseas Chinese. RoI is the priority most of time and China has to prove lucrative to attract their investment. In contrast many of erstwhile diaspora did for their homeland for no return at all. 1911 revolution was funded by overseas Chinese resulting in founding of RoC. And my universitat was set up by a Singaporean tycoon in 1910's, who sponsored a full chain from elementary school to university. He (Mr Tan) had to hand over schools to the Ministry of Edu. when his business swirled down in 1930's crisis.
 

dumdumdum

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I have been more impressed by response of global Jews than Israeli state itself. The way in which they have been able to pressurize Western Institutions , universities even employees to make supporting Hamas or even Palestine cause is outstanding.
What will Non Resident Hindus do if Indian is faced with such situation? What do we need to do to garner this kind of clout?
 

Nazaria e Bakistan

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What will Non Resident Hindus do if Indian is faced with such situation? What do we need to do to garner this kind of clout?
Non resident Hindu here. If push comes to shove, yes we can do quite a few things but there are some limitations.

1. Hindus are still in employee mode. Jews have been traditionally business owners. It limits our abilities.

2. Hindus connection to India is limited. More by India herself. NONE of us want to lose our Indian citizenship but we are forced to lose it. Letting us keep our Indian citizenship will go a long way.

3. We are asked this question a lot: "You have taken an oath of alligiance to our country and you are no longer citizen of India. Why do you act as an advocate of India?". We have no good answer to this.

4. OCI is a revocable privilege and really a long term visa with a somewhat limited working rights. Government has practically removed the pretension "C" part of OCI.

5. Israel gives citizenship to ANY jew. It calls itself jewish homeland and acts as one. India is a secular country by definition and its official foreign policy is NOT that of being a homeland for Hindus.

1 lowers our ability while 2-5 lowers our motivation. NRIs have always been looked with suspicion and Congress went out of the way to alienate them. BJP has been better but still limits the connection.

India should allow dual citizenship with some countries like US/UK/Australia. Also, may be it should perhaps limit dual citizenship to Hindus who have still have immediate family in India.

Lastly, it should promote and make Agniveer rather compulsory for Hindus. Create technical branches which could give Agniveers with technical bent. Like those who want to go in cyber security could become Agniveer in Indian Cyber Offensive capabilities. Allow the best among them to skip JEE etc and join IITs, IIITs and NITs directly after their duty with lots of scholarships. Another branch could be aero-space. This will create next batch of NRIs who are more closely linked with India and can be relied upon. The next entrepreneur should come out of Agniveers.
 

srevster

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If you want to combat divide and conquer, then Hindus need to stick together and institutionalize their power
 

dumdumdum

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"You have taken an oath of alligiance to our country and you are no longer citizen of India. Why do you act as an advocate of India?" <-- The answer should be that this has got nothing to do with India but our allegiance to Hindu faith, which we have not given up by changing citizenship.
 

Nazaria e Bakistan

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"You have taken an oath of alligiance to our country and you are no longer citizen of India. Why do you act as an advocate of India?" <-- The answer should be that this has got nothing to do with India but our allegiance to Hindu faith, which we have not given up by changing citizenship.
Good point. However, India has to step us and call itself a Hindu homeland for that. Thats what Israel has done. Its the homeland of Jews. Its very hard to argue against a Jew having a sympathetic link to Israel. It gives shelter to ALL Jews.
 

Indrajit

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Non resident Hindu here. If push comes to shove, yes we can do quite a few things but there are some limitations.

1. Hindus are still in employee mode. Jews have been traditionally business owners. It limits our abilities.

2. Hindus connection to India is limited. More by India herself. NONE of us want to lose our Indian citizenship but we are forced to lose it. Letting us keep our Indian citizenship will go a long way.

3. We are asked this question a lot: "You have taken an oath of alligiance to our country and you are no longer citizen of India. Why do you act as an advocate of India?". We have no good answer to this.

4. OCI is a revocable privilege and really a long term visa with a somewhat limited working rights. Government has practically removed the pretension "C" part of OCI.

5. Israel gives citizenship to ANY jew. It calls itself jewish homeland and acts as one. India is a secular country by definition and its official foreign policy is NOT that of being a homeland for Hindus.

1 lowers our ability while 2-5 lowers our motivation. NRIs have always been looked with suspicion and Congress went out of the way to alienate them. BJP has been better but still limits the connection.

India should allow dual citizenship with some countries like US/UK/Australia. Also, may be it should perhaps limit dual citizenship to Hindus who have still have immediate family in India.

Lastly, it should promote and make Agniveer rather compulsory for Hindus. Create technical branches which could give Agniveers with technical bent. Like those who want to go in cyber security could become Agniveer in Indian Cyber Offensive capabilities. Allow the best among them to skip JEE etc and join IITs, IIITs and NITs directly after their duty with lots of scholarships. Another branch could be aero-space. This will create next batch of NRIs who are more closely linked with India and can be relied upon. The next entrepreneur should come out of Agniveers.
Nope. No dual citizenship. It is a choice made to give up Indian citizenship. Don't confuse NRI's with foreign citizens of Indian origin. NRI's are Indian citizens living abroad. Regardless of how an individual may feel about India and some may have a deep connection, giving dual citizenship opens it up for people who feel nothing special for India. Even OCI, the absolutely stupidly named equivalent of a PR, is in my view, an abomination. Most people who have given up Indian citizenship should never be welcomed back, that should be reserved for a few who really deserve it. At least the OCI is a privilege that can be withdrawn, removing a citizenship once given would be near impossible.

Thanks but no thanks. I appreciate your position but India will have to primarily be built by Indians here and if anyone of Indian origin feels deeply, they can contribute as much as they can but cannot demand Indian citizenship as a condition while still holding on to another for which they gave up this country's citizenship in the first place.
 

Nazaria e Bakistan

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Nope. No dual citizenship. It is a choice made to give up Indian citizenship. Don't confuse NRI's with foreign citizens of Indian origin. NRI's are Indian citizens living abroad. Regardless of how an individual may feel about India and some may have a deep connection, giving dual citizenship opens it up for people who feel nothing special for India. Even OCI, the absolutely stupidly named equivalent of a PR, is in my view, an abomination. Most people who have given up Indian citizenship should never be welcomed back, that should be reserved for a few who really deserve it. At least the OCI is a privilege that can be withdrawn, removing a citizenship once given would be near impossible.
If you want Israel level support from diaspora, you can not have a one way street. If the door is closed from the other side, you will get a rather muted support which will be supressed.

The practical reality is this : First generation immigrants are seldom that powerful politically or in any other sense. Those with work permits and PRs know their position in their host countries are rather "conditional". They can NEVER give you as strong of a support as someone who holds a citizenship in that country. You want a strong support? Ensure second generation has ties to India. Otherwise it will be superficial.

Israel does it. And rather successfully.
 

Indrajit

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3. We are asked this question a lot: "You have taken an oath of alligiance to our country and you are no longer citizen of India. Why do you act as an advocate of India?". We have no good answer to this.
Specific to this point, if one has taken an oath of allegiance of another country and that usually requires forsaking any other allegiance, why should people in India trust anyone for whom...

A) The oath of allegiance means nothing (the corollary being that the person may have no strong feeling of allegiance to India either)

B) Related to (A)- no loyalty to this country can be expected.

Furthermore, once an oath of allegiance has been taken, the person automatically becomes, if dual citizenship is permitted, someone with divided loyalties. No one is going to completely trust such a person anyways which is where the absurdity of a request for dual citizenship is seen. Dual citizenship does nothing for the country but may be beneficial to some individuals. Hardly a case being made out.
 

Nazaria e Bakistan

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Thanks but no thanks. I appreciate your position but India will have to primarily be built by Indians here and if anyone of Indian origin feels deeply, they can contribute as much as they can but cannot demand Indian citizenship as a condition while still holding on to another for which they gave up this country's citizenship in the first place.
Never seen it happen before. Weak ties never lead to strong support.

And you are WRONG about one thing. No one GIVES UP their Indian citizenship. Its TAKEN AWAY by the Indian government and consitution. Its a vital difference. NO ONE and ESPECIALLY Hindus want to give up their citizenship of India. Its India that takes it away.
 

Nazaria e Bakistan

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Specific to this point, if one has taken an oath of allegiance of another country and that usually requires forsaking any other allegiance, why should people in India trust anyone for whom...

A) The oath of allegiance means nothing (the corollary being that the person may have no strong feeling of allegiance to India either)

B) Related to (A)- no loyalty to this country can be expected.

Furthermore, once an oath of allegiance has been taken, the person automatically becomes, if dual citizenship is permitted, someone with divided loyalties. No one is going to completely trust such a person anyways which is where the absurdity of a request for dual citizenship is seen. Dual citizenship does nothing for the country but may be beneficial to some individuals. Hardly a case being made out.
Apparently, Israel does all of this without any question on their loyalty. Their excuse? Israel is homeland of Jews.

A lot of Indian diaspora can not even call India their country of citizenship.
 

GaudaNaresh

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Specific to this point, if one has taken an oath of allegiance of another country and that usually requires forsaking any other allegiance, why should people in India trust anyone for whom...
No. Not Always. Oaths of allegiences come in many varieties- they do not come explicit with renouncing allegiences with other countries in case of Canada, for eg- it only asks that you put Canada first in time of war(a fair ask, which every nation **SHOULD** ask).

A) The oath of allegiance means nothing (the corollary being that the person may have no strong feeling of allegiance to India either)

B) Related to (A)- no loyalty to this country can be expected.

Furthermore, once an oath of allegiance has been taken, the person automatically becomes, if dual citizenship is permitted, someone with divided loyalties. No one is going to completely trust such a person anyways which is where the absurdity of a request for dual citizenship is seen. Dual citizenship does nothing for the country but may be beneficial to some individuals. Hardly a case being made out.
Except Israel & Israelis do and so do Yankees- they do not 'distrust' their dual citizens, they simply put a strong pressure to 'pick America first'.

Dual citizenship does do a lot for the country, as Bakistan has stated. We who are non citizens of India but were born citizens of India, can easily attest to this by seeing the kid of pull dual citizens have towards their motherlands interests as Canadians.

For eg, China offers dual citizenship 'de-facto' - as in, much like Russia, they are under no obligations to recognise your '2nd citizenships' but once you are Russian/Chinese or become their citizens, you will FOREVER be their citizens-despite what you wish.

And as such, their communities are often a lot more forceful in the west.[/QUOTE]
 

Indrajit

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If you want Israel level support from diaspora, you can not have a one way street. If the door is closed from the other side, you will get a rather muted support which will be supressed.

The practical reality is this : First generation immigrants are seldom that powerful politically or in any other sense. Those with work permits and PRs know their position in their host countries are rather "conditional". They can NEVER give you as strong of a support as someone who holds a citizenship in that country. You want a strong support? Ensure second generation has ties to India. Otherwise it will be superficial.

Israel does it. And rather successfully.
India is not Israel, Israel was a country made for Jewish people of the world, hence the open invitation.

We can do without the "Israeli" level of support. OCI level of support is sufficient.

We didn't close the door, the door was closed by the individuals concerned. This argument can also be used for 2nd marriages without divorce, it helps no one but the individual concerned.

Conditional PR is all that should be offered. There is a reason that Americans who were forced to allow dual citizenship by courts don't really treat anyone as a dual citizen, expecting primary loyalty to be towards the US alone and the oath of allegiance explicitly requires a forsaking of all other allegiances. If someone ever gives up US citizenship, he or she can never ever get it back. I prefer that position without the charade of dual citizenship.
 

Indrajit

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No. Not Always. Oaths of allegiences come in many varieties- they do not come explicit with renouncing allegiences with other countries in case of Canada, for eg- it only asks that you put Canada first in time of war(a fair ask, which every nation **SHOULD** ask).
A fair ask for which country? Why should the other agree to be a 2nd choice? If every nation asked that question, one of them is being lied to.
 

Nazaria e Bakistan

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India is not Israel, Israel was a country made for Jewish people of the world, hence the open invitation.

We can do without the "Israeli" level of support. OCI level of support is sufficient.

We didn't close the door, the door was closed by the individuals concerned. This argument can also be used for 2nd marriages without divorce, it helps no one but the individual concerned.

Conditional PR is all that should be offered. There is a reason that Americans who were forced to allow dual citizenship by courts don't really treat anyone as a dual citizen, expecting primary loyalty to be towards the US alone and the oath of allegiance explicitly requires a forsaking of all other allegiances. If someone ever gives up US citizenship, he or she can never ever get it back. I prefer that position without the charade of dual citizenship.
India is de facto homeland of Hindus. It should start acting like one de jure. "Can not" "is no" is a just a pathetic excuse and intellectual masturbation.

Yes, India can do a lot without anyone's support but then your outcomes will be rather .... well you know that already, don't you?

The problem with ideological stand-point is well understood before : Nehru had a massive hard on for socialism and planned economy and that led of "Hindu rate of growth" -- ironically Nehru was as anti Hindu as they come.

So yes, you can have "Hindu rate of support" internationally too. Like it is. For the size and success of its diaspora, India is punching way below its weight class.

Why do you think Canada dares not call out on "Khalistani terror" even though there are more Hindus in Canada than Sikhs? Because Hindus in Canada have no strong reason to put forward govt of India's stand point.
 

Indrajit

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And you are WRONG about one thing. No one GIVES UP their Indian citizenship. Its TAKEN AWAY by the Indian government and consitution. Its a vital difference. NO ONE and ESPECIALLY Hindus want to give up their citizenship of India. Its India that takes it away.
That's an convenient opinion, I'm afraid. India's position on citizenship is known before an applicant moves for taking another country's citizenship. That is a choice made, whether with a heavy heart or a light one.
 

Indrajit

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India is de facto homeland of Hindus. It should start acting like one de jure. "Can not" "is no" is a just a pathetic excuse and intellectual masturbation.

Yes, India can do a lot without anyone's support but then your outcomes will be rather .... well you know that already, don't you?

The problem with ideological stand-point is well understood before : Nehru had a massive hard on for socialism and planned economy and that led of "Hindu rate of growth" -- ironically Nehru was as anti Hindu as they come.

So yes, you can have "Hindu rate of support" internationally too. Like it is. For the size and success of its diaspora, India is punching way below its weight class.

Why do you think Canada dares not call out on "Khalistani terror" even though there are more Hindus in Canada than Sikhs? Because Hindus in Canada have no strong reason to put forward govt of India's stand point.
Look, this isn't personal. I have made my position on this as clearly as I can. I understand this is personal for you and I see no benefit in joining issue with you when my position is more general. I will stop with my arguments on this unless I feel there is a specific point on which I need to comment.

Thanks for your time. Cheers.
 

Nazaria e Bakistan

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That's an convenient opinion, I'm afraid. India's position on citizenship is known before an applicant moves for taking another country's citizenship. That is a choice made, whether with a heavy heart or a light one.
India's position is purely idological with no grounding in practical reality. Article 9 has existed since 1950 alright. That SoB Ambedkar had a hatered for Hindu unity, we all know that.

Thing is : Once India was having a "planned economy" and "license raj" as state policy. It was an ideological standpoint of Nehru. It led to underperformance in pre-90s era.

Same is happening in domain of foreign policy and international influence. Why do you think WaPo etc are able to put hit pieces on India with impunity? Because no one in foreign lands advocates for India strongly. You want that? You need a strong link with your rather large diaspora.
 

Nazaria e Bakistan

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Look, this isn't personal. I have made my position on this as clearly as I can. I understand this is personal for you and I see no benefit in joining issue with you when my position is more general. I will stop with my arguments on this unless I feel there is a specific point on which I need to comment.

Thanks for your time. Cheers.
There is nothing personal here. Its a question of choice between ideological stand point and practical reality. Practical reality is not a strong point of Indian beaurocray too. It shows everywhere. From defence purchases to foreign policy.
 

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