India wants UK to return Kohinoor, other artifacts

Discussion in 'Religion & Culture' started by roma, Oct 9, 2009.

  1. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    Return our PEACOCK THRONE and KOHINOOR !

    Most countries which had a colonial past have been doing this on an on-going basis, as in the above article.
    One exception being Britain.
    In the past i have heard the topic being debated from both the Britisbh and the Indian sides, but so for i havent seen a concerted campaign from the Indian people .
    Is there for example a governmental comittee or non-partisan, or multi-partisan committee looking into and making progress on the matter , did they even debate the topic or are all oblivious to the issue ?

    And when it was taken up in the past , how did the matter die down or get side-lined ? Is there no continuity on the matters of national Pride ?

    A concerted . organised , Non-partisan campaign is what is needed so that, whichever party is in power, the heritage of our people remains a key issue and should be followed through on a systematic and continual basis.

    So the return of the above mentioned are two very important matters, beside the thousand or perhaps hundreds of articles, some in private possession.

    But the two above are in THe posession of the British Government and there is no escaping the fact that, as they are on display at times and cant deny itheir existance.

    Property that has been taken has to be returned otherwise the person ( or government ) who / which took it remais A THIEF !!!

    Is it the RIGHT time now to do it ,now that there is MMS , a leader who relates well to the west , or when should it be , or will there ever be a right time if not NOW

    Glad to hear your opinions and debate on the topic.


    France confirms will hand back Egyptian murals - Yahoo! News

    PARIS (Reuters) – France will return five segments of an ancient Egyptian tomb mural held by the Louvre museum, committee, Culture Minister Frederic Mitterrand said Friday.

    The provenance of the fragments, which Mitterrand said were acquired in good faith by the Louvre between 2000 and 2003, was called into doubt in 2008 after the discovery of the tomb from which they were believed to have been taken.

    Mitterrand said in a statement the decision to return the murals underlined France's determination to fight the illegal traffic in cultural objects.

    Egypt's Supreme Council for Antiquities had asked France to give back the murals and had suspended cooperation with the Louvre until the issue was resolved.

    Friday, a museum committee recommended that the murals be returned. The ministry said the move would be implemented immediately.

    Under the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) convention of 1970, countries agreed measures to prevent the illegal export of national treasures.

    (Reporting by James Mackenzie; Editing by Angus MacSwan)
     
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  3. Quickgun Murugan

    Quickgun Murugan Regular Member

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  4. gokulakannan

    gokulakannan Regular Member

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    Could anyone tell wat happened to Koh-i-Noor diamond? currently where it is?
     
  5. EnlightenedMonk

    EnlightenedMonk Member of The Month JULY 2009 Senior Member

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    I believe it's part of the crown jewels... so forget about getting it back...
     
  6. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    Gems like Reliance, Tata, Birla are far more valuable than Koh-i-Noor and Peacock Throne.
     
  7. F-14

    F-14 Global Defence Moderator Senior Member

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  8. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    it is PRESENTLY part of the crown (ILLEGALLY ) and it CAN be returned

    i'd like to dispell the idea that just bcos it is part of the uk crown so it cant be returned.

    in fact those brits who are infavour of a republic have often said they WILL reurn the jewels and they have even debated that now that india is partitioned so who to return the various object to . Even that has an answer and i know it , but that might start another debate and not for now.

    so if even the republican british, ( a growing number ) and even among teh "royalists" are in favour of returning stolen property , or at least misappropriated property , then we indians and NRI's could at least not block the way , by please being a bit more positive ?
     
  9. S.A.T.A

    S.A.T.A Senior Member Senior Member

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    The Koh-e-noor was taken from India and hence there is little ambiguity as tto who should take custody of it when it is returned....India will.

    The Peacock throne however is not with the British,it was stolen by the Persian usurper Nader Shah in 1739 CE and according to period chronicles The Peacock Throne was broken up and its treasures distributed among the Persian warlords following Nader shah's assassination in 1747 CE.

    The peacock throne kept in the Tehran museum is basically only the namesake of the dazzling Mughal throne.The Peacock throne is as good as lost to us.
     
  10. Oracle

    Oracle New Member

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    LONDON: The Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) has joined an international network for the return of priceless artifacts taken away during British rule, including the Kohinoor diamond and the Sultanganj Buddha.

    ASI Director-General Gautam Sengupta said the list of India's treasures held abroad was "too long to handle" and there was a need for a "diplomatic and legal campaign" for their restitution from institutions, including the British Museum, the Royal Collection and the Birmingham Museum and Art Gallery.

    Speaking to The Independent, Sengupta said that after decades of unsuccessful unilateral lobbying, India was looking to join a campaign with the support of UNESCO, and other countries with longstanding complaints about the foreign ownership of their artistic riches, including Egypt and Greece.

    "As efforts so far to reclaim stolen treasures have proved futile, UNESCO support is required for launching an international campaign to achieve this end.

    "Not only India, various other countries like Mexico, Peru, China, Bolivia, Cyprus and Guatemala also the voiced the same concern to get back their stolen and looted antiquities and to join the international campaign," Sengupta said.

    While underlining the need to be "realistic" about the chances of large numbers of items being returned, Sengupta told the newspaper that a list of "unique items" that should be returned to their home countries was being drawn up by each of the participating countries.

    "Once this list is ready, these countries will jointly initiate a series of steps, including a diplomatic and legal campaign to get back the lost treasures," he added.

    Rita McLean, head of the Birmingham Museum, said: "We have not received any official request for the return of the Sultanganj Buddha. Any requests for restitution will be treated on a case-by-case basis."

    According to the newspaper report, the British Museum said it was satisfied that the objects highlighted by the Indian authorities had been acquired legitimately.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...inoor-other-artifacts/articleshow/5999070.cms
     
  11. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    I would say also all the money it looted with interest. That would make us the richest country in the world. They would not even have that much to give back.

    But yes the kohinoor and other things can be asked back, where is the famous peacock throne that nadir shah made way with. I think that too had ended up in the UK isn't it?
     
  12. Oracle

    Oracle New Member

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    Yusufbhai, if UK gives us all the money it looted with interest, they would never get out of recession and would go into severe depression. While in UK, I visited Buckingham Palace, it has walls plated with gold designs, big huge gold designs. Bloody Thief.

    Not only that, we should also ask UK and the would community to pay us money and interest on the spices they stole from us. Europeans were raw carnivorous before they came to India. With spices they learnt how to eat like a human being.
     
  13. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    Who is the real owner of the kohinoor....
    1.india
    2.pakistan
    3.bangladesh
    4. iran
     
  14. Oracle

    Oracle New Member

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    India
    Are you high tonight?
     
  15. Oracle

    Oracle New Member

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    History of Koh-i-noor

    The anniversary of Koh-i-noor reaching the shores of England draws near again. A brilliant diamond, the 'Koh-i-noor’s trail is littered by misery, unhappiness and war.

    BY HARPREET KAUR


    There was a period when Indian diamonds were very famous the world over. These included the Koh-i-noor, Orlov, the Great Moghul, Darya-i-noor, Indore pears, Shah and Arcots. These were all part of the treasure houses of the great emperors of India. Today, they are all in the hands of outsiders.

    The legendary Koh-i-noor has been in the eye of the storm ever since it left the hands of its original owners - a diamond which was never bought or sold, but changed many hands. Koh-i-noor has left a trail that speaks of greed, power, murder, mayhem and unhappiness.

    According to all references, Koh-i-noor was never that great to look at in its early days. It was just another diamond that was dull, non-sparkling and a little yellow in appearance.

    Many legends say that the Koh-i-noor was mined in India, and at least 4,000 years old. It received a mention in the 1300s, when it was named in the Baburnama. One account states that Babur got his hands on the diamond in Gujarat; another says he got it in the Deccan. But when Babur came to Agra in May 1526, the ruler Vikramaditya most likely gave him the great diamond. There is also evidence that his son Humayun carried a large diamond that his father had handed back to him at Agra and was known as Babur’s diamond for the next 200 years.

    There are still so many unresolved questions surrounding the precious stone. Many believe that the Koh-i-noor was also the Great Mogul and that Babur's diamond was separate; others say the Koh-i-noor and Babur’s diamond were one and same, while the rest identified it with both Babur's diamond and the Great Mogul. Information gathered over the years shows that in fact, three diamonds existed: - the Great Mogul – was the Orlov, weighing 189.62 metric carats, in Kremlin; and Babur's diamond – was the Darya-i-noor, weight 175 gm and 195 metric carats, the Iranian Crown Jewels; and the Koh-i-noor re-cut, Crown Jewels, England.

    When the peacock throne was handed over to Nadir Shah, the hiding place of this diamond was given away. A member of Mohammad Shah’s harem gave away the hiding place of Koh-i-noor. It is said that the Shah kept it hidden in his turban. So, Nadir Shah devised a plan - he ordered a grand feast to coincide with the restoration of Mohammed Shah to his throne. During the feast Nadir Shah suddenly proposed an exchange of turbans, a sign of brotherly ties and eternal friendship. Mohammed Shah was hardly likely to resist. After the exchange, Nadir Shah entered his private apartment only at night, where he unfolded the turban and found the diamond concealed within. When he set his eyes on it, he exclaimed "Koh-i-noor", meaning "Mountain of Light".

    The next sixty years of its history are the most violent and bloodstained. The final owner was Maharaja Duleep Singh, son of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, in the backdrop of the two Sikh Wars leading to the annexation of the Punjab by the British. The hoisting of British flag was on March 29th, 1849 Lahore where Punjab was formally proclaimed a part of the British Empire in India. One of the terms of the Treaty of Lahore was:- "The gem called the Koh-i-noor which was taken from Shah Shuja-ul-Mulk by Maharajah Ranjit Singh shall be surrendered by the Maharajah of Lahore to the Queen of England."

    Dr Sir John Login was entrusted with two charges: to take the Koh-i-noor out of the Toshakhana (the jewel house), and also the guardsmanship of the young Duleep Singh. It was formally handed over to the Punjab government of Sir Henry Lawrence (1806-1857), his younger brother John Lawrence (afterwards Lord Lawrence, the man who in February of 1859 would break ground on the future Lahore railroad station), and C.C. Mausel.

    The Koh-i-noor sailed from Bombay in H.M.S. Medea. It was put in an iron box and kept in a dispatch box and deposited in the Government Treasury. For security reasons, this piece of news was suppressed, even among officers of the Treasury - and withheld from Commander Lockyer, the ship's captain. HMS Medea's voyage turned out to be a perilous one - cholera broke out on board in Mauritius and the local people demanded its departure. They asked their governor to open fire and destroy the vessel if it did not respond. After leaving Mauritius, a severe gale hit the vessel that lasted for about twelve hours. They reached Plymouth, England, where the passengers and the mail were unloaded, but not the Koh-i-noor, which was forwarded to Portsmouth.

    From there, the two officers took the diamond to the East India House, handing it over to the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the company.

    The stone
    Prince Albert (Prince Consort) and Sebastian Garrard stated that the Koh-i-noor was badly cut, it is rose-not-brilliant-cut. It was decided to seek the advice of practical and experienced diamond cutters. A small steam engine was set up at Garrard's shop, while two gentlemen, Messrs Coster, Mr. Voorzanger and Mr. Fedder, travelled to London to undertake the re-cutting of the diamond. The Koh-i-noor was embedded in lead, two weeks later, after examining the stone. Mitchell thought that it had lost nearly all its yellow colour and become much whiter. The re-cutting took 38 days and cost £8000 ($40,000). The final result was an oval brilliant diamond weighing 108.93 metric carats, which meant a loss of weight of just under 43 per cent. Its was now in stellar brilliant-cut, possessing the regular 33 facets, including the table, while the pavilion has eight more facets than the regular 25 bringing the total number of facets to 66.

    In 1853, it was mounted on a magnificent tiara for the Queen, which contained more than two thousand diamonds. Five years later, Queen Victoria ordered a new regal circlet for the diamond. In 1911, Garrards made a new crown that Queen Mary wore for the coronation - it contained diamonds, among them the Koh-i-noor. In 1937, this was transferred to the crown made for Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother, based on Queen Victoria's regal circlet and is set in a Maltese Cross at the front of the crown.

    The controversy
    The 20th century saw a war of words over Koh-i-noor and its rightful ownership. In 1947, the government of India asked for the return of the diamond. Also, the Congress Ministry which ruled Orissa staked claim to the stone, saying it belonged to the Lord Jagannath. Ranjit Singh's treasurer mentioned that it was the property of their estate. Pakistan's claim to the diamond was disputed by India. Shortly thereafter, a major newspaper in Teheran stated that the gem should to be returned to Iran.

    Sir Olaf has pointed out that the Koh-i-noor had been in Mogul possession in Delhi for 213 years, in Afghan possession in Kandahar and Kabul for 66 years and in British possession for 127 years. Historically, it maybe difficult to pass judgement on the validity of the various claims, but on the other hand, from a gemological aspect, as a paper report said, the Indian claim is the most valid because it was in that country that it was mined.

    The legend
    Legend goes that Sun God gave this gem to his disciple Satrajit, but his younger brother Persain snatched it from him. A lion in the forest killed Persain and Jamavant took this gem from the body of Persain and delivered it to Lord Krishna, who restored it to Satrajit. Later, this jewel again came back into the hands of Lord Krishna as dowry when Satrajit gave the hand of his daughter Satyabhama in marriage to him. Lord Krishna gave it back to the Sun God .The Koh-i-noor came into the hands of numerous rulers till it was possessed by Porus, the king of Punjab, who retained the diamond after a peace treaty in 325 BC when Alexander left India.

    Chandragupta Maurya (325-297 B.C.) became the next possessor and passed it on to his grandson Ashoka who ruled from 273-233 B.C. Later it slipped into the hands of Raja Samprati of Ujjain (Ashoka’s grandson). This jewel remained in the custody of Ujjain and the Parmar dynasty of Malwa. When Ala-ud-din Khilji (1296-1316A.D.) defeated Rai Ladhar Deo, the ruler of Malwa in 1306 AD, he acquired the diamond. From this stage up to the time of Mughal Emperor Babur, the history of this precious stone is lost once more. Koh-i-noor comes to light again in year 1526.

    Humayun is said to have given the stone to the Shah of Persia for giving him refuge after he lost to Sher Shah. From 1544 to 1547, the Koh-i-noor remained in the possession of Shah Tehmasp of Iran. The Shah sent the Koh-i-noor along with other precious gifts to Burhan Nizam Shah of Ahmednagar (Deccan) for the rulers of the Deccan - Ahmednagar, Golkunda and Bijapur regarded the King of Persia as their religious head. This stone remained in the possession of the Nizam Shahi dynasty of Ahmednagar and the Qutb Shah dynasty of Golkunda in the Deccan for a period of 109 years. How it came back to the Mughals is another gap in history.

    After Aurangzeb, this diamond remained consigned into the coffers of the Mughal treasury from 1707 to 1739 A.D. Muhammad Shah Rangila (1719-1748) used to carry this wonder diamond with him in his turban. Nadir Shah got hold of Koh-i-noor when he ransacked Delhi in the 1700s and it went to his successors, landing in the hands of the Afghan ruler Shah Shuja who handed it to Maharaja Ranjit Singh in 1813.

    The Koh-i-Noor left the shores of India on April 6, 1850, and on reaching London on July 2, 1850, it was handed over to the Board of Directors of the East India Company. Sir J.W. Logg, the Deputy Chairman of the East India Company, presented it to Queen Victoria. The queen recorded in her journal: "The jewels are truly magnificent. They had also belonged to Ranjit Singh and had been found in the treasury of Lahore.... I am very happy that the British Crown will possess these jewels for I shall certainly make them Crown Jewels".

    Many still await the many treasures which were “stolen” by the British Raj, and no one knows how long the wait will be. But today, if you happen to visit London, please make a stopover at Tower of London and look at the Crown Jewels for the Queen and the Koh-i-noor placed in her crown up front inside a Maltese cross.

    BY HARPREET KAUR

    http://www.dancewithshadows.com/society/kohinoor-diamond-india.asp
     
  16. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    So coz kohinoor was mined in india thats why indian claim is most valid but not the claims coz various owners possessed it.But thats only the theory of Sir Olaf Caroe father of the Great game and partition of india.He never looked india as one country but various dominions ruled by british.Isn't that surprising that Sir Olaf Caroe so easily seconded indian claim over kohinoor when he never treated india as a country...but can you think if ever british decide to return kohinoor to its rightful owners then all the above countries i've mentioned will allow it without a fight???
     
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  17. Oracle

    Oracle New Member

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    /\/\/\ India is the rightful owner. The story ends here.
     
  18. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    ^^ i say prove it...coz present british govt dont think so...even they think they are the rightful owner as claim based on possession.
     
  19. Oracle

    Oracle New Member

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    I do not care what the British Govt. thinks. I care what I think. Stop asking stupid questions and re-read the article again. Is there any need to go offtopic???
     
  20. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    =xD ...... lets first decide the right full owners....=heheh
     
  21. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    how about returning our territory along with the diamond??
     

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