India to spend 35 billion dollars over 10 years to boost airpower

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by LETHALFORCE, Sep 21, 2012.

  1. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    India to spend Rs 2 lakh crore over 10 years to boost airpower - The Times of India

    NEW DELHI: India will spend over Rs 2 lakh crore (upwards of $35 billion) over the next 10 years to boost its air combat power to counter any threats to its territorial integrity as well as protect its expanding geopolitical interests.

    While IAF's acquisition programmes have been well-documented — ranging from 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) to over 200 futuristic 5th generation stealth fighters — the deputy chief of air staff Air Marshal R K Sharma put a figure to it on Thursday.

    Speaking at a seminar on "Energizing the Aerospace Industry in India" here, Air Marshal Sharma said IAF plans to spend Rs 2 lakh crore on capital procurements during the 12th (2012-2017) and 13th (2017-2022) Plans while underlining the "huge potential" for the private sector to work in the defence sector.

    Incidentally, this comes after Navy's ongoing warship, submarine and maritime aircraft acquisition programmes as well as proposed projects over the next 15 years were pegged at over Rs 3 lakh crore, as was first reported by TOI earlier.

    The IAF figure may also sound "staggering" to some, but it's "a question of simple mathematics". With the norm being a 12%-15% hike in IAF's capital outlay every year, it already stands at Rs 30,514 crore for this fiscal.

    Taking annual budgets over the two five-year Plan periods into account, and subtracting the amounts for capital works, the Rs 2 lakh crore figure seems conservative. "Moreover, it's for not just new acquisitions but also committed liabilities or installments for deals already inked," said a senior officer.

    With both China and Pakistan bolstering their air forces, IAF certainly needs well-planned systematic inductions of fighters and helicopters, mid-air refuellers and transport planes, spy and combat drones, surface-to-air missiles and advanced radars.

    Despite airpower being critical in winning modern wars, IAF is down to just 33-34 fighter squadrons (each has 12 to 18 jets) due to progressive phasing out of virtually obsolete MiGs. It will not be able to achieve its "sanctioned strength" of 39.5 squadrons even by 2017 despite needing at least 44 squadrons for "robust dissuasive deterrence" against China and Pakistan.

    IAF is heavily banking upon the almost $20 billion MMRCA project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters to plug gaps, apart from the ongoing phased induction of 270 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia for around $12 billion.

    With final commercial negotiations underway, the MMRCA contract is likely to be inked by mid-2013. The first 18 jets will come in "fly-away condition" from France from 2016 onwards, while the rest 108 will subsequently be manufactured under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited over six years.

    For the long-term, IAF is looking to induct over 200 of the 5th Gen swing-role fighters from 2022 onwards. India and Russia will ink the $11 billion full design R&D contract for them within six months, with each chipping in with $5.5 billion. India will eventually spend around $35 billion on this futuristic fighter project over the next 15-20 years, with each jet to be subsequently produced costing over $100 million.


    This number seems low PAK-FA alone will be over 30 billion (300 planes)
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2012
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  3. average american

    average american Senior Member Senior Member

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    I hate to tell you all this but the T50 an PAK-FA are not stealth planes, and to India they are going to be more like a white elephant.
    Stealthy Robots Stalk The T-50
    by James Dunnigan

    The Russian answer to the American F-22, . The T-50 is a prototype, and the Russians are still doing a lot of tinkering. While the T-50 is the stealthiest aircraft the Russians have, it is not nearly as stealthy as the F-22, or even the F-35 or B-2. The Russians are apparently going to emphasize maneuverability instead of stealth. But they are having problems perfecting the engines for the T-50, and the defensive electronics. This puts the T-50 at a big disadvantage against the F-22 or F-35, which try to detect enemy aircraft at long distance, without being spotted, and then fire a radar guided missile (like AMRAAM).
    The T-50 is not an entirely new design, like the F-22. The T-50 was developed from the Su-27, which it is to eventually replace. As part of this process, another development aircraft, the Su-35, was created. This aircraft first flew two years ago. The Su-35 contains a lot of the technologies that are going into the T-50. Three years ago the Russian Air Force showed off the first of two flyable prototypes of the Su-35. Less than four years ago Russia announced its long promised Su-35 fighter was back in development again. The Su-35 is an enhanced Su-30 (itself a development of the Cold War era Su-27), and has been in development for over a decade. At one point, it was called the Su-37, but the name was changed back to Su-35. A dozen or more Su-35 prototypes have been built, and apparently no two are identical. This is typical for Russian aircraft development. They prefer to produce many incremental improvements, rather than make a huge jump to a very different new model. Thus you can trace an evolution from the Su-27 to the T-50.

    The Russians want to sell their "Fifth Generation Fighter" (the T-50, which they admit is not true 5th Gen) to China, India and other foreign customers. There is already a deal for India to develop its own version of the T-50, while contributing some technologies (like lightweight materials) to the basic design. The Indians have announced that their version of the T-50 will be a two seater with longer range than the single seat Russian model. Russia now has the billions of dollars it will take to carry out the T-50 development program. India has become a partner, contributing cash, technology and manufacturing capability.

    The T-50 is a 34 ton fighter that is more maneuverable than the 33 ton, Su-27, has much better electronics and is stealthy. It can cruise at above the speed of sound. It also costs at least fifty percent more than the Su-27. That would be some $60 million (for a barebones model, at least 50 percent more with all the options), about what a top-of-the-line F-16 costs. The Su-27 was originally developed to match the F-15, which is larger than the single engine F-16.

    Russia is promising a fighter with a life of 6,000 flight hours, and engines good for 4,000 hours. Russia promises world-class avionics, plus a very pilot-friendly cockpit. The use of many thrusters and fly-by-wire will produce an aircraft even more maneuverable than earlier Su-30s (which have been extremely agile).

    The T-50 is not meant to be a direct rival for the F-22, because the Russian aircraft is not as stealthy. But if the maneuverability and advanced electronics live up to the promises, the aircraft would be more than a match for every fighter out there except the F-22. If such an T-50 was sold for well under $100 million each, there would be a lot of buyers. Russia says it will begin production, and sales, in five years. That may be too ambitious, but for the moment, the T-50 is the only potential competitor for the F-22 in development. But, as with the F-22, development expenses are increasing, and it looks like the T-50 will cost at least $120 each (including a share of the development cost), but only if 500 or more are manufactured. Only 182 F-22s were built because of the high cost. American developers are now seeking to apply their stealth, and other, technologies, to the development of combat UAVs. Thus by the time the T-50 enters service, in 5-10 years, it may already be made obsolete by cheaper, unmanned, stealthy fighters.

    Features that leap out as being non stealthy on the T-50 include:



    - Absence of sawtooth edges on anything but the weapons bay doors

    - Absence of edge alignment on skin panels


    - Control surface inner edges not aligned with planform edges


    - Noisy features like the auxiliary vents on the engine inlets

    - Lower fuselage from the inlets rearward is completely conventional, no blending at all of engine nacelles into fuselage


    - Upper fuselage from the mid-wing rearward is conventional, no blending of engine nacelles into fuselage (although partially masked from the sides by the empennage)


    - Straight-through engine nacelles, unblended rear nacelles, lack of panel edge alignment, control surfaces not aligned with wing

    - lack of blending, doors and vents everywhere, gaping intakes, obvious straight-through inlets, unaligned control surfaces, no sawtooth or alignment on landing gear bay edges:

    =

    And these are just the things we can see. We don't know anything about the cavity geometries, RF antenna apertures, the antennas themselves, the type / location / quality of RAM, etc.
     
  4. trackwhack

    trackwhack Tihar Jail Banned

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    ^^ Typical bookworm rant :lol:
     
  5. average american

    average american Senior Member Senior Member

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    Think so even, even Pravda says its not a true stealth plane...

    Russia's T-50 PAK FA Not Fifth-Generation Fighter Jet Yet

    Prime Minister Putin praised Russia’s new fifth-generation fighter jet when he visited the Central Aerohydrodynamics Institute in the Moscow region on June 17. However, Putin was hasty in his remarks. The T-50 fighter jet, which performed its 16th test flight for Putin, can not be referred to as the fifth-generation aircraft. Experts claim that the plane has to be reequipped to obtain the title.

    For the time being, the PAK FA jet meets only a few requirements of the aircraft of this class, the Moskovsky Komsomolets newspaper said.

    According to experts’ estimates, if a plane does not correspond to two or three requirements on the list of technical qualities, it can not be considered as fifth-generation aircraft. That is why the USA’s F-35 and Russia’s MiG-35 are only budget replacements of the genuine F-22 and T-50 fifth-generation jets.

    The plane, which was demonstrated to Putin in the town of Zhukovsky, corresponded to a part of technical requirements. It is a multi-role jet that can be used both for executing air defense tasks and for striking ground-based targets.

    Russia Today: Russian fifth-generation fighter: high hopes

    The T-50 develops the ultrasonic speed in a regular operation mode. Fourth-generation jets had to use the afterburner for the purpose. The T-50 engine consists of the digital control system and the plasma ignition system. The engine and the advanced construction of glider give the jet extra high maneuvering abilities. Russian specialists are working on the next generation of engines that are said to improve the flight performance of the T-50.

    The stealth technology, a mandatory requirement for a fifth-generation fighter jet, has not been fully developed for T-50. It is worthy of note that the T-50 is the stealthiest plane among all Russian warplanes. However, US specialists sacrificed additional maneuvering ability to make the F-22 stealthier. Experts say that Russian engineers will most likely choose the maneuvering capability between the two qualities.

    The PAK FA carries state-of-the-art radar equipment with active phased antenna array. The Russian-made device allows to conduct all-sided and multi-channel target servicing, which is also one of the requirements for fifth-generation fighter jets.

    The T-50 lacks the required electronic equipment. The plane of this class must carry state-of-the-art avionics: a circular data system, automated interference control and other systems. It was earlier reported that India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited would deal with development of the navigation system and the mission computer for the T-50.

    Vladimir Putin said in Zhukovsky that the T-50 fifth-generation fighter jet would be 2.5 or even 3 times less expensive than its foreign analogues. The Russian jet will overcome the USA’s F-22 on its maneuvering ability, arms and range.

    Russia has spent 30 billion rubles on the first stage of the development of the plane and will require additional 30 billion rubles for the second stage. The modernization of the engine and the arms of the jet will follow next.

    PAK FA’s speed limit is 2600 km/h, the maximum non-afterburning speed – 2100 km/h. The practical range – 4300 km. For comparison, F-22 Raptor’s speed limit makes up 2410 km.h, the maximum non-afterburning speed – 1963 km/h, and the practical range – 3219 km.

    Kind of doubt they know the top speed of the F22, its classfied and the PAK FA does not exist, its a twinkle in some ones eye.
    You all do know the T50 and PAK-FA are partially stealth at most.

    http://english.pravda.ru/russia/economics/18-06-2010/113908-fifth_generation-0/
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2012
  6. trackwhack

    trackwhack Tihar Jail Banned

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    Mod edit: He meant pravda.ru . Russian news source


    back to the topic. I agree with LF. That number is awfully low. I think the Air Marshal got it wrong.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2012
  7. Dovah

    Dovah Untermensch Senior Member

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    Okay, so MRCA, PAK-FA, Mirage upgrade, Sukhoi upgrade is going to cost just 35 biliion? Hard to believe, unless they are discounting MRCA and Super Sukhoi upgrade as money already spent.
     
  8. average american

    average american Senior Member Senior Member

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    I am curious as to why you all keep calling the PAK-FA and T50 stealth planes when they are not.
     
  9. arya

    arya Senior Member Senior Member

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    they are making fool to common Indian or them self

    nothing is going to be change

    we will get 5th gen fighter plane when all the world are using 6 or 7th gen plane

    pls dont play with the nation security and i thing all fault goes to our top officer who allowing to leaders and babus to do that .

    nation security is our officer duty not the corrupt leaders ,but our officer are just pet to leaders
     
  10. vishwaprasad

    vishwaprasad Regular Member

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    Firstly learn to sign some papers on pending deals and then start talking about planned expenditures. All this talk talk talk and not action. God save this nation.
     
  11. Blackwater

    Blackwater Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    First of all title is misleading

    India to spend 35 billion dollars over 10 years to boost airpower


    it should be ""India to spend 35 billion $$ over 50 yrs to boost air power"":lol::lol::lol::rofl::rofl:
     
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  12. Defcon 1

    Defcon 1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    First of all, you should discuss with right contexts at hand. Let us agree that T50 is not an stealth aircraft and it is not as good as F22. But the article you posted before itself claims that T50 will able to match every fighter plane in the world(including F35) other than F22, if its development goes along without hiccups. India would be procuring a more stealthier version of PAK FA, which will be known as FGFA, and hence you cannot directly deduce that american aircrafts will be stealthier than FGFA as well.

    Secondly, the cost of PAK FA is very less. It is about 120 million dollars per plane as claimed in your article. The price of F22 will cross 150 millions easily and that of F22 is said to be about 250 millions(according to some sources and this figure has not been adjusted for inflation). Hence, PAK FA provides a better bang for buck, and 2 PAK FAs can be bought for the price of one F22.

    At the end of the day, US is the only country that can afford F22, but strictly speaking, we do not need it. T50 is enough to meet our requirements as it can match J20
     
  13. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    The Rs 2 L C figure is very conservative. In the last 5 year plan, IAF spent Rs 1.5 L C. So, double or even triple what they said and you get the actual figure over the next 10 years.

    Why does it feel I was the topic here?
     
  14. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Every project has it's critics. Some points are valid while some are not. For eg: APA has been crying hoarse over how Su-35s will kill F-35s if the AWACS and tankers are taken out. Turns out even US officials agree.

    Should I post information on F-35 from RAND, Wheeler and Sprey, Carlo Kopp and Bill Sweetman on how "bad" the F-35 is?

    Your sources are based on how Russia "cannot" do it rather than a genuine list of difficulties. Since when has the notion "cannot be done" stopped people.
     
  15. average american

    average american Senior Member Senior Member

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    More then a match if it lives up to its promises, what do you think are the chances of that. Has any Russian weapons lived up to its promises?
     
  16. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Almost all of them.
     
  17. average american

    average american Senior Member Senior Member

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    Why dont you ask Saddam or the middle east countries that went up against Israel about that.
     
  18. vishwaprasad

    vishwaprasad Regular Member

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    Many times....

    Vietnam, India have shown how to PROPERLY use Russian hardware to defeat US hardware. Go and read history of Indo-Pak war where you will see what India did with US so called superior patten tanks.
     
  19. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Why don't you ask the Pakistanis and the Vietnamese about what happened?
     
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  20. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    RCS of PAK FA has already been revealed at 0.5m^2. It is not 5th gen VLO but with its internal bays it is above any LO 4.5gen fighter with external stores. Rafale would need stealth pylon containers to achieve that level even though its clean RCS is lower.
     
  21. average american

    average american Senior Member Senior Member

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    Well I guess you could ask the pilots of the 1000 IAF planes that have crashed, at least the few that have survived.
     

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