India To Buy Only 36 French Rafale Fighter Jets: Minister

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Gabriel92, May 31, 2015.

  1. Gabriel92

    Gabriel92 Regular Member

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    India will only buy 36 Rafale fighter jets as they are "way too expensive", the defence minister said Sunday, dashing lingering French hopes of a larger deal that has been years in the making.

    Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said the previous government's plans to buy 126 of the fighter jets from French firm Dassault were "economically unviable and not required".

    "We are not buying the rest. We are only buying the... 36," Parrikar told the Press Trust of India (PTI) news agency.

    During a visit to France in April, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced that New Delhi was ordering 36 of the "ready to fly" planes.

    The deal -- estimated to be worth five billion euros ($5.5 billion) -- followed tortuous years-long negotiations on buying the jets.

    But the purchase agreement fell a long way short of previous proposals for India to buy 126. Frustrating negotiations for that deal stalled over costs and assembly guarantees.

    Parrikar has since played down expectations of a larger deal, but his comments on Sunday were some of his strongest yet, saying buying more of the jets would blow the defence ministry's procurement budget.

    "I also feel like having a BMW and Mercedes. But I don't because I can't afford it. First I can't afford it and second I don't need it," Parrikar told PTI.

    Parrikar said a committee set up to nail down details of purchasing the 36 would complete its work in the next two to three months.

    India has in recent years launched a vast defence modernisation programme worth some $100 billion, partly to keep up with rival neighbours Pakistan and China.

    Since coming to power one year ago, Modi's government has approved a string of contracts for new military hardware that had stalled under the previous left-leaning Congress party.

    Modi, a hardline nationalist premier, also wants to end India's status as the world's number one defence importer and to have 70 percent of hardware manufactured domestically by the turn of the decade.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/af...y-36-French-Rafale-fighter-jets-minister.html
     
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  3. Defencearts

    Defencearts Regular Member

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    Damn... Is this for real?

    Why am I not surprised to see the initial order of 126 drastically reduced to 36 planes?!
     
  4. Compersion

    Compersion Senior Member Senior Member

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    do the french want 36 and more.

    MMRCA 100+ is with TOT
     
  5. Punya Pratap

    Punya Pratap Regular Member

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    India to adopt ‘unique formula’ to acquire additional Rafale: Manohar Parrikar
    Published June 1, 2015 | By admin
    SOURCE: UNI

    [​IMG]

    Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has ruled out the possibility of buying more than 36 Rafale fighter jets under the present process as top sources in the Defence Ministry today suggested that India will adopt a new formula to acquire the rest of Medium-Multi-Role-Combat-Aircraft (MMRCA).

    Although, only 36 Rafale will be purchased through Government-to-Government (G-to-G) deal, as was conveyed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi to France leadership during his visit, rest of the requirement will be fulfilled via public-private-foreign (PPF) partnership route.

    Calling earlier proposal of acquiring 126 fighters as ‘economically unviable’, the Defence Minister has suggested that India need not to buy more than 36 Rafale fighter jets.

    A timeline of 90 days has been fixed to complete the price negotiation for 36 Rafale, including 32 single seater and rest 4 twin seater for the training purposes, the sources said.

    “Soon after the completion of price negotiation process, the delivery of the aircraft will commence,” they said.

    “First, I can not afford and second, I do not need it (additional Rafale)” Mr Parrikar was quoted as saying in some media reports.

    The IAF has projected the requirement of 126 fighters, with an option clause of purchasing additional 63 aircraft. The long drawn process, that ran into more than 8 years, had been scrapped by the present government.

    “An entity of companies from public and private sector will be floated to generate resources for building industrial base for assembling rest of the Rafales, after the delivery of 36 fighters is complete,” the sources said.

    “The entity will have a strategic partnership with French Dassault Aviation (maker of Rafale),” they said.

    The government need not to put its financial resources to create the required infrastructure for rest of the Rafale aircraft, which will be acquired under the new formula.


    The formula seems to be in sync with Mr Parrikar’s earlier statement when he said that by deciding to buy 36 Rafales, the government has saved the cost of 90 fighters, which can be spent on the development of Tejas mark-2
     
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  6. Jagdish58

    Jagdish58 Regular Member

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    Good move by GOI giving better chance for LCA mk2
     
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  7. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    As per reports in TOI today there might be a follow on order for 20 more aircraft. This may be next year or towards the ned of the deliveries of the 36 aircraft.

    Govt. is willing to fully give time to HAL to develop LCA MK II and AMCA.

    another factor is that the Govt. wants the IAF to take a decision whether to go in for further SU 30 MKI or Rafael and this will be only decided once IAF has a squadron of Rafael flying for around 12 months minimum.
     
  8. Shirman

    Shirman Regular Member

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    It will be interesting to see how Hal and Tejas story evolves now they have Political will......This wasn't the case in 10 years of UPA rule.......I mean if ISRO can send Mars Satellite HAL and ADA will atleast role out LCA mk2 by 2019 and if it dosn't happen privatization is the only possibility left......aka TATA Aerospace or L&T aerospace etc....
     
  9. Illusive

    Illusive Senior Member Senior Member

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    Don't know about Tejas mk2 but they better start putting serious funds to our 5g aircraft + Super su30 needs to get some comprehensive updates with increased reliability and availability.
     
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  10. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    hahahahah ...well the english must be having a little laugh at the french

    but this is certainly the way to go , another paradigm correct decision by the modi led govt and both parrilkar and jaitley must get their due

    more power to LCA tejas and can mix with good numbers of sukhoi cobra etc etc
     
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  11. sorcerer

    sorcerer Senior Member Senior Member

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    Rafale Deal Going Through 'Complex Negotiation', Says French Envoy

    NEW DELHI: French Ambassador Francois Richier on Friday said he could not comment on the outcome of the ongoing talks on the Rafale fighter plane deal with India, and added it was a "complex negotiation".

    "Discussions are taking place at present. I cannot say what the outcome will be. It is a complex negotiation indeed. I don't know what is going to happen," Richier told the media here on the issue of the multi-billion dollar warplane deal that was finalised during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Paris in April last year.

    "Of course, I am hopeful. But hopeful does not mean we have certitude. Work is being conducted with a lot of energy," the French ambassador to India said.
    His comment comes two days ahead of French President Francois Hollande's official visit to India. Hollande will be the chief guest at the Republic Day parade in Delhi on January 26.
    Asked if an inter-governmental agreement is expected to be signed during Hollande's visit on the deal, he said: "In any case, there will be an inter-governmental agreement because it is a government-to-government negotiation. Everything will be within this IGA and its annexure. I can confirm this because this is no surprise."


    Air Marshal Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria is heading the price negotiations for the Indian side. The final contract for the 36 aircraft, including its missile system and others, for which an agreement was arrived at during Modi's visit, is expected to cost around Rs.60,000 crore.
    The ambassador said: "There is no commercial contract in the Rafale deal. It is an issue between the French and the Indian government. There is no private contract involved in this deal."


    Countering the contention that the French defence deal was expensive, Richier said: "I don't agree... otherwise, there will not be any business. If you look at it with a bit of precision, you'll discover it is not very expensive. In most cases, in India, there is a lot of competition. We may win, we may lose. If we win, it is (given) that we are not expensive."

    Asked about the short-range surface-to-air missile (SR-SAM) project between India's Defence Research and Development Organisation and MBDA of France, he said, "We are working on it. Of course, we expect a decision on this by the Indian side. May be not now, but in the future," he said.

    http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...on-says-french-envoy/articleshow/50685478.cms
     
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  12. cobra commando

    cobra commando Tharki regiment Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Inter-Governmental Pact On Rafale To Be Discussed: French President

    CHANDIGARH: French President Francois Hollande today said he will discuss with Prime Minister Narendra Modi the inter- governmental agreement on 36 Rafale fighter planes during his three-day India visit which started from in Chandigarh. "We are going to take another step on the road which we hope will lead us to India's acquisition of the 36 Rafale jets," he told reporters. "India needs them and France has shown that it has the world's best aircraft. The commercial contract can only come after the inter- governmental accord which will be discussed during my visit," Mr Hollande added. PM Modi had announced in Paris last year that India would buy the fighters.
    Inter-Governmental Pact On Rafale To Be Discussed: French President
     
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  13. Alien

    Alien Regular Member

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    India signs accord to buy 36 Rafale jets from France, financial details yet to be worked out

    DELHI: Prime Minister Narendra Modi said on Monday that India has agreed to buy 36 Rafale combat jets from France, but the financial details of the deal have yet to be worked out.

    Modi was speaking after hosting French President Francois Hollande for talks in New Delhi.

    Hollande called the Rafale deal a "decisive" step, and added that the financial issues that will be sorted out in couple of days.

    The French President had said that commercial talks would have to be wrapped up to close the deal that was first announced when Modi visited France last spring.

    "The Rafale is a major project for India and France. It will pave the way for an unprecedented industrial and technological cooperation, including 'Make in India', for the next 40 years. Agreeing on the technicalities of this arrangement obviously takes time, but we are on the right track", Hollande said on Sunday.

    India and France have been negotiating the financial structure of the Rafale purchase from Dassault Aviation, since the announcement of the deal was made by Prime Minister Modi in April during his visit to France.

    As part of that deal, there are expected to be significant "offsets", or related French investments that Prime Minister Modi hopes will support his "Make in India" initiative to develop the manufacturing sector.

    Earlier on Monday, speaking at the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry, finance minister Michel Sapin said that French companies will invest $10 billion in India over the next five years, mainly in the industrial sector

    PM @narendramodi begins press statement, says President @fhollande is a great friend of India pic.twitter.com/2ejkLzHLaR

    — Vikas Swarup (@MEAIndia) January 25, 2016"Over the last five years, French companies have invested more than $1 billion per year in India," Sapin said in New Delhi. "We estimate that they will continue to invest at least $10 billion over the next five years."


    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...yet-to-be-worked-out/articleshow/50716924.cms
     
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  14. Tactical Frog

    Tactical Frog Regular Member

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    So what is it going to be ?? Will India buy the damn jets or not ? I bought a stack of Thales stocks, just in case . Man. It is been a long walk, to get there. Dont you think it is time to get some cool firepower, like the Egyptians ?
     
  15. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

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    Relax. Your investments won't go waste. :daru:

    We will buy the jets. A lot more than 36 eventually. Although most of the rest could be built in India.
     
  16. Tactical Frog

    Tactical Frog Regular Member

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    I appreciate your optimism. It is just that there has been a lot of negative feedback in french medias after Hollande's trip ending with another MoU and no contract. Still the Rafale is such an awesome plane ... an universal fighter jet , just like the F4 Phantom was for decades. It is actually cheap for all it can do :)
     
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  17. Nuvneet Kundu

    Nuvneet Kundu Senior Member Senior Member

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    No one disagrees over its capabilities. There are certain geostrategic kinks that need to be ironed out before we make any big purchase from France. Take for example the fact that you sold cutting edge French submarines with AIP to Pakistan. Yeah, those are the kind of things that cause these inconvenient delays. If we agree on geopolitics, then tactical things like weapons purchases can be worked out very easily.
     
  18. punjab47

    punjab47 महाबलामहावीर्यामहासत्यपराक्रमासर्वाग्रेक्षत्रियाजट Banned

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    the cold war radar guided missiles achieved a 6.6% probability of kill in BVR engagements. Of the conflicts featuring BVR engagements the highest probability of kill was achieved by Israel in 1982 Lebanon war yielding a kill rate of 20%. After cold war the accuracy of BVR missiles improved.

    Until now post cold war USA had achieved 47% (approx) probability of kill with AIM 120 AMRAAM in six engagements. It was recorded that out of 19 missiles fired, 8-9 enemy airplanes (including two friendly helicopters) were hit. That's a 47.36% hit rate. And that was against aircraft either obsolete or known to be equipped with poor warning/countermeasure systems (half-dozen of Serbian MiG-29). AIM-9L in Gulf war had recorded only 23% hit rate. These percentages of BVR hits after cold war are going to further depreciate against a near peer adversary as the BVR hits recorded were not achieved against any adversary having similar BVR capabilities. The fighter jets could not employ electronic counter measures and in some cases were fleeing and non-maneuvering. The modern day Russian and Chinese fighter jets employ digital radio frequency memory (DRFM) form of electronic counter measures which impose reportedly greater suppression of radars hindering radar guided missiles effectiveness

    The Irbis-E X-band radar developed for Russian Su 35 fighter jet can detect low observable targets with an RCS of 0.01 square meters at a distance of 50(93km) nmi making F-35 detectable by the aircraft.

    F35 supposedly 0.001 but 0.01 is pak fa so should improve when they get signature of f35. That's why USA going for f15/18 upgrade to go from 8 to 16 hardpoints.

    http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/01/idn-take-is-f-35-americas-worst.html?m=1
     
  19. Tactical Frog

    Tactical Frog Regular Member

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    But India got even better technology and bigger subs with the Kalvari class, no ? It is India we like :)
     
  20. Bornubus

    Bornubus Senior Member Senior Member

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    Rafale is worst buy that too 36 in no.Russians would've given us Mig 35 with AESA and 100 + plus number by 2020.

    Even now naval Mig 29K is better than MKI and outclass F 16 blk 52 in terms of BVR engagement and Radar detection.
     
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  21. Nuvneet Kundu

    Nuvneet Kundu Senior Member Senior Member

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    Yeah, you sell a gun to a person so that you can sell bulletproof jacket to his enemy. This is not love, this is the standard business model of how defense sales works. You blackmailed us to make us buy these things. The reason we have to put up with it is that our position is weak on the negotiating table due to lack of local alternatives. We are facing the full brunt of the 'beggars can't be choosers' paradigm.

    Anyway, whatever deal is struck will be the best compromise we can make. This is a stopgap solution for us because our indigenous aviation projects have been behind schedule. 36 Rafales will plug our defense needs for 10 years, by that time hopefully our indigenous industry and R&D will have started producing our own planes.
     

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