India to back Palestinian bid for U.N. membership

[pmaitra]

@ k what is the Chandigarh model ???

Chandigarh is a city and a Union Territory, which is also the capital of (East) Punjab State and Haryana State, both in India, because, the historical capital of (Undivided) Punjab, Lahore, now lies in Pakistani (West) Punjab.

 

[ejazr]

India is not antagonizing the arab world,India always kept the same view towards the Paletinians. There is no getting caught on the wrong side if we expressed our view at a time of our choosing. This vote has repercussions for India too the question will definetly arise why should Palestinians get statehood and not Kashmiris??? And at a time China is in POK it is a dumb move by the govt.

I don't understand why we Indians keep linking the Israeli-Palestine dispute with the Kashmir dispute. This is an illogical comparison. In Kashmir, the people HAVE the right to vote and elect their government. They can even be the PM of the country if they want to. Palestine its completely different. The Israeli military basically regulates the entire region and they have no political rights. Hence the term colonization that used frequently. There is no question of linking this with Kashmir in any case because India provides full political rights to Kashmiris, something the Israelis have refused to do to Palestinians.

Do read this article here: http://defenceforumindia.com/documentary/8475-kashmir-not-palestine-india-not-israel.html

And as I have mentioned earlier, India recognizes Palestine since 1988, voting for the recognition is no change in GoI position. The US and Israel know this well and there will be no change in our relationship on this.

 

[ejazr]

I don't know why India has done this, like the Libya issue too- it seems be on the wrong side. Hamas is a terrorist organization, Israel walked off from Gaza. they( Hamas) had the chance to show the world that Hamas would use it as an example of peaceful coexistence- but NOooooooooooooooooo

they had to use it to lob rockets at Israel. how can India support this resolution when we have Hamas charter asking for elimination of Israel and not 2 state solution?

Actually HAMAS is opposing the UN bid. So India is actually in opposition to HAMAS on this.
India on the other hand is SUPPORTING the two state solution which is what the UN bid is for.

 

[ejazr]

^^ Yes, that is why they are unanimous. They have chosen to do what they did. I was referring to the Arab World in general. This is one example. Other than that, you should also consider funding provided by Arab countries to Pakistan.

I am not sure I understood what you mean. Unanimous in this case means that as long as Pakistan is in OIC, the rest of the OIC members can't do anything. In other words, Pakistan ( or any other OIC member for that matter) has a veto on removing the Kashmir issue of the OIC agenda.

And what do we mean by funding by Arab countries?
From recent trade statistics, Indo-Arab trade is the largest trading block for India reaching to around $240Bn by 2014. More specifically the India-GCC block is our biggest trading partner ahead of US, Europe or even China at $100Bn for 2010. Not to mention the $35Bn of remittances we get every year as well. If you compare these with Pakistani numbers, they are less than half with GCC remittances not even reaching $10Bn.

If you look at these figures, it might look more like the India has a much more productive economic relationship by orders of magnitude than Pakistan.

 

[JayATL]

Actually HAMAS is opposing the UN bid. So India is actually in opposition to HAMAS on this.
India on the other hand is SUPPORTING the two state solution which is what the UN bid is for.

The reason they were against it is because they don't want a two state solution ( HAMAS) and therefore having such a meaningless vote where Palestine gets " Observer STATE" vs current " Observer entity" status( most people here don't know what they are going to get approved in the UN)--- is more dangerous for Israel. Thereshould be nothing granted to Palestine till they have Hamas in check ...

It' like India giving up Kashmir control w/o the explict guarantee of no more terrorism and no more asking for more land ( like Hamas wants)

 

[Galaxy]

There is no thing as friend in geo politics.

This is not us vs them...it is all about interests.

India diplomacy is to make good relation with almost every country. But everything doesn't depend on geo-politics. Although, Israel and US do understand India's position why we supporting Palestine.

People to people relation is very good between India and Israel. Majority of Indians and Israeli like each others country.

We should have supported Israel and I don't agree supporting Palestine bid for membership. Although it's more like symbolic and most likely it would be rejected and Israel will win at end.

 

[JayATL]

India diplomacy is to make good relation with almost every country. But everything doesn't depend on geo-politics.

People to people relation is very good between India and Israel. Majority of Indians and Israeli like each others country.

We should have supported Israel and I don't agree supporting Palestine bid for membership. Although it's more like symbolic and most likely it would be rejected and Israel will win at end.

Palestine will get Observer state status in the UN. It wont be a win for Israel rather a bigger threat..not compared full state rights - but a big threat all the same. It's late and I will explain later-- going o bed. Look it up the meaning of observer STATE vs current Observer entity status..

 

[Galaxy]

Palestine will get Observer state status in the UN. It wont be a win for Israel rather a bigger threat..

If passed. then Yes, anything possible.

But most likely, It won't be passed. Let see !!

All Middle-east and Muslim countries hate Israel more than anything else. I feel very sad, When I see those idiots abusing Jews and Israeli all the time. If Israel won't be aggressive, They will destroy the Israel. I hope, USA will use some power to reject this UN membership for Palestine. Even if it will be passed, Israel will always have advantage due to strong defence.

 

[ejazr]

The reason they were against it is because they don't want a two state solution ( HAMAS) and therefore having such a meaningless vote where Palestine gets " Observer STATE" vs current " Observer entity" status( most people here don't know what they are going to get approved in the UN)--- is more dangerous for Israel. Thereshould be nothing granted to Palestine till they have Hamas in check ...

It' like India giving up Kashmir control w/o the explict guarantee of no more terrorism and no more asking for more land ( like Hamas wants)

That is exactly the point. Once the UN guarantees Palestine recognition. Then the two state solution becomes official and HAMAS gets isolated further hence their opposition to the UN bid. I guess I should also remind that the Arab League supports the two state solution as well and under the Arab Peace initiative of 2002, it has already launched a proposal that upon Israel's recognition of Palestine, All Arab League countries would not only recognize Israel but will also establish full diplomatic and economic relations with Israel.

HAMAS then becomes isolated and it no longer can oppose the two state solution especially when the entire Arab League would be behind this solution. The comparison with Kashmir as I mentioned does not gel because they are two different situations. We Indians really need to come out of this complex if we are to address problems logically. Its basically falling for that Pakistani trick of making the two same. Please don't fall for it.

 

[KS]

The comparison with Kashmir as I mentioned does not gel because they are two different situations. We Indians really need to come out of this complex if we are to address problems logically. Its basically falling for that Pakistani trick of making the two same. Please don't fall for it.

Even if they are the same, Kashmir is going nowhere.

Its just that we are not falling for the trick, we are warning that the Arab world and the OIC will definitely fall for it.

They are people who demand a foot when given an inch.

 

[The Messiah]

India diplomacy is to make good relation with almost every country. But everything doesn't depend on geo-politics. Although, Israel and US do understand India's position why we supporting Palestine.

People to people relation is very good between India and Israel. Majority of Indians and Israeli like each others country.

We should have supported Israel and I don't agree supporting Palestine bid for membership. Although it's more like symbolic and most likely it would be rejected and Israel will win at end.

Us voting on this is meaningless because our vote means nothing because 99% countries can vote for palestine and usa can still veto it.

Make no mistake israli eyes will be on yanks rather than anyone else. It would be better to vote for palestine because:

1. our vote doesn't matter
2. our stance wouldn't be different than before
3. palestine will get nothing concrete...it is like lip service.
4. we get the best of both worlds.

 

[Galaxy]

Us voting on this is meaningless because our vote means nothing because 99% countries can vote for palestine and usa can still veto it.

Make no mistake israli eyes will be on yanks rather than anyone else. It would be better to vote for palestine because:

1. our vote doesn't matter
2. our stance wouldn't be different than before
3. palestine will get nothing concrete...it is like lip service.
4. we get the best of both worlds.

I agree with you.

Palestine won't get membership in any case but by supporting Palestine we will get the best of both worlds. and we can continue good relation with Israel as earlier.

 

[ejazr]

Even if they are the same, Kashmir is going nowhere.

Its just that we are not falling for the trick, we are warning that the Arab world and the OIC will definitely fall for it.

They are people who demand a foot when given an inch.

And what I am trying to explain is that there is no proof that this will be the case. I have already provided a link were the Arab League has explicitly stated that they have nothing to do with Kashmiri separatists. Every single major OIC member state except Pakistan has reiterated that Kashmir should be resolved bilaterally. I am referring to mainly the Turks, GCC countries, Syria and Egypt.

In fact, the EU and the US has been more aggressive on Kashmir with India than any Arab country. I just understand where this fear or concern that Arabs would suddenly demand independence for Kashmir is coming from. We have to be more confident than this.

Look at how Russia and China have reacted. Russia has far more aggressive policy in Chechnya but still has a contact group with the OIC. The Chinese again restrict Islamic practices but are still willing to let the OIC SG visit Xinjiang who also happens to be Turkish. And both have also announced that they will be supporting the UN bid.

Are we now somehow less capable or less influential than both when it comes to this issue? I would argue that because India has the 2nd or 3rd largest Muslim population and has provided a home for Islam for around 1500 years it has a better case than either of the two.

Basically what I am saying is that we should stop assuming Pakistan has some disproportionate influence on Arab or Muslim majority country affairs. They do not and just like Russia and China have made bold decisions on the Palestinian issue, we should be not afraid to do the same.

There are two extreme positions:
(1) That the entire land of historical Palestine belongs to the jews and hence there should be no Palestine: This is the opinion of the fringe right in Israel and the settlers. Even Bibi does not support this.
or (2) Israel does not have the right to exist and should be removed by force if necessary. Again only groups like HAMAS, Hizbullah and the only country being Iran have said this as a matter of policy

The position that is backed by overwhelming majority of the world is that we have a two state solution with two states for the two people. This has been GoI position as well. This is what George W Bush and Obama have publicly committed to. And almost all Israeli PMs have supported this as well. And this is also supported by the Arab League. So supporting the UN bid recognizing the reality of the two state solution is really not some radical departure or change in policy.

 

[sonofindia]

Good point.

I totally support your point of view. India ia a nation of 1.2 billion people. It doesnot need permission from any damn country to follow its own values and foreign policy. A nation of 7 million jews can not be considered our master. I regret that even in this day and age, we Indians somtimes act submissive and weak. Wake up ...there is no need to fear anyone.. we have a great future and no power in the world can break India's nerves of steel. One fifth of the human race can not be taken for granted even the declining hyperpower,United States. Mutual respect and peaceful coexistence is the only way to deal with modern India. Future belongs to India. India will be a powerful force for peaceful and prosperous world. Vasudev Kutumbkum. JAI HIND.

 

[asianobserve]

I agree with you.

Palestine won't get membership in any case but by supporting Palestine we will get the best of both worlds. and we can continue good relation with Israel as earlier.

Tell that to Israeli right wing nuts (which is poised to lead Israel in the freseeable future).

 

[pmaitra]

I am not sure I understood what you mean. Unanimous in this case means that as long as Pakistan is in OIC, the rest of the OIC members can't do anything. In other words, Pakistan ( or any other OIC member for that matter) has a veto on removing the Kashmir issue of the OIC agenda.

Ok, so the condition of unanimity means all OIC members will stay united no matter what. That means, even if Pakistan is wrong, they will refuse to condemn them for the sake of this stupid unanimity. Fine. So let the Arab World stay unanimous and let us abstain from this Palestinian thingy.

And what do we mean by funding by Arab countries?
From recent trade statistics, Indo-Arab trade is the largest trading block for India reaching to around $240Bn by 2014. More specifically the India-GCC block is our biggest trading partner ahead of US, Europe or even China at $100Bn for 2010. Not to mention the $35Bn of remittances we get every year as well. If you compare these with Pakistani numbers, they are less than half with GCC remittances not even reaching $10Bn.

If you look at these figures, it might look more like the India has a much more productive economic relationship by orders of magnitude than Pakistan.

Mujahideen camps are receiving funds from Arab countries since the times of the Soviet-Mujahideen War. Even today, Pakistan based terrorist organisations write grants to influencial figures in Arab countries for funding, and this happens with the complete knowledge of at least the Saudi government.

The only Arab (not sure if they are majority Arabs) country, as you rightfully stated, that explicitly supported India, was Iraq.

Oh, those remittances are just a fraction of what should come back because many people are lured by false promises in these Arab countries and exploited while their respective governments turn a blind eye, but then that is a different thread.

My point is I am disillusioned of the NAM era Nehru-Nasser Friendship and we should be pragmatic in how we deal with the Arab World. It is their choice. They can unanimously condemn Pakistan (if required, kick Pakistan out and condemn) or refuse to do so. India's foreign policy should not be caught up in any nostalgia.

 

[KS]

I totally support your point of view. India ia a nation of 1.2 billion people. It doesnot need permission from any damn country to follow its own values and foreign policy. A nation of 7 million jews can not be considered our master. I regret that even in this day and age, we Indians somtimes act submissive and weak. Wake up ...there is no need to fear anyone.. we have a great future and no power in the world can break India's nerves of steel. One fifth of the human race can not be taken for granted even the declining hyperpower,United States. Mutual respect and peaceful coexistence is the only way to deal with modern India. Future belongs to India. India will be a powerful force for peaceful and prosperous world. Vasudev Kutumbkum. JAI HIND.

Kiddo do you know from where the one fifth of humanity got its phalcon AWACS radar from ? You clearly did not get any of the arguments presented here.

My point is I am disillusioned of the NAM era Nehru-Nasser Friendship and we should be pragmatic in how we deal with the Arab World. It is their choice. They can unanimously condemn Pakistan (if required, kick Pakistan out and condemn) or refuse to do so. India's foreign policy should not be caught up in any nostalgia.

:thumb:

 

[Tronic]

Ofcourse we should support the bid. How can we ever project ourselves as a future independent world power if we can't even stand up for our own historical stance.

 

[Abir]

We pay for AWACS and everything else, neither Israel own us anything nor do the Arabs. We do import majority of our energy from Arab countries. Indian foreign policy indeed is driven by pragmatism, the same pragmatism which compelled all other BRIC nation to vote for Palestine.

 

[KS]

We pay for AWACS and everything else, neither Israel own us anything nor do the Arabs. We do import majority of our energy from Arab countries. Indian foreign policy indeed is driven by pragmatism, the same pragmatism which compelled all other BRIC nation to vote for Palestine.

Ofcourse we do pay and not get our toys through soft loans.

But there are some tech that is NOT given even if you are ready to pay money and we get access to that stuff from Israel.

Another example is the RISAT tech which are ultra classified. So in the world of defence you dont get ANYTHING for money.

I dont see the Indian FP being driven by pragmatism - all I can see is historical baggage being adhered to scruplously in face of changed world realities.

If Indian FP is indeed driven by pragmatism this vote would have been abstained by India.