India signs another defence deal with Israel

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by shiv, Apr 6, 2009.

  1. shiv

    shiv Regular Member

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    New Delhi, April 06: Close on the heels of a $2 billion missile deal with the Israeli Aerospace Industry (IAI), India has signed yet another deal with an Israeli defence company to build a munition factory in Bihar forgoing the mandatory offset clause, a senior official said.

    The Rs.12 billion/$240 million deal with the Israel Military Industries Ltd. was signed with the Indian Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) on March 25. "No offset clause is there... It is the major concession granted in this deal," a senior defence ministry official told IANS requesting anonymity. The Indian defence procurement policy mandates an offset clause under which 30 percent of all defence deals of over Rs.3 billion have to be reinvested in the country. The munition factory will be built at Nalanda in Bihar along the lines of IMI's ordnance factory in the Tel Aviv suburb of Ramat Hasharon. The global tenders for the deal were floated in 2007 and following approval of the cabinet committee on security, the deal was inked. The deal with the IAI, signed in February this year, for joint development of medium range surface-to-air missiles ran into controversy because of a pending Central Bureau of Investigation's probe into the Barak missile deal where there were allegations of kickbacks. It also had a clause of six percent "business charge", which was politically criticised as illegal commission. Commissions on defence deals were banned by the government after the kickback controversy over the Bofors gun deal in the 1980s.


    http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10747
     
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  3. shiv

    shiv Regular Member

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    from the above news the following questions arise for which i would like your expert views->

    1.what was the need when we are self sufficient?

    2.Will it manufacture a new kind of munition??

    3.why was the offset claus revoked for this unimportant deal??

    4.why is the defence ministry closing in so much with Israel when there are cheaper and better options??

    i think all the above questions are rhetorical and only has one answer which is known by all of us.......
     
  4. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    from the above news the following questions arise for which i would like your expert views->

    1.what was the need when we are self sufficient?
    Indians feel foreign is always better as repeated in many arms deals

    2.Will it manufacture a new kind of munition??
    possibly smart bombs or munitions?

    3.why was the offset claus revoked for this unimportant deal??
    tied to other deals?

    4.why is the defence ministry closing in so much with Israel when there are cheaper and better options??
    Israel is a reliable partner who dosen't mind TOT and joint development

    i think all the above questions are rhetorical and only has one answer which is known by all of us.......
     
  5. shiv

    shiv Regular Member

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    can you list the techs upon which ISRAEL has provided tot to us?/
     
  6. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    recently 2 biggies

    1)Interceptors/sensors for AKASH and other areas BMD

    2)AWACS
     
  7. shiv

    shiv Regular Member

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    1.i think the BMD sensors have been completely developed by us,not being rude but do you have any links?

    2.They have not given TOT on AWACS
     
  8. kuku

    kuku Respected Member

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    The radar for the BMD (swordfish?)?
    http://www.domainb.com/aero/mil_avi/miss_muni/20090124_ballistic_missile.html

    What will the munitions factory do? will it produce arms/ammunition for the international market or Israel? will it produce them for Indian market (of what kind)?

    On this news report alone, we can not discuss anything.
     
  9. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    http://www.dubaiaerospace.com/portal/fullstory/Default.asp?story_id=127493489

    Dismissing PAC-3 as "an outdated system", the scientist said India's BMD system was "20-30% more capable" than it. He, however, acknowledged the BMD system had received some help from countries like Israel (LRTRs), France (fire-control radars) and Russia (seekers).

    Corrected -Radar help

    Also Radar for LCA

    BARAK, new SAMS deal

    and the details of AWACS have not been made available
     
  10. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    First of all, let me assure you gentlemen, lest the price of this arrangement seem too steep to you, that the deal is not for "a munitions factory" but rather for five munitions factories in Bihar on the lines of the IMI's superior Ramat Hasharon plant in Tel Aviv.


    The deal should come as no surprise since the two countries announced at the DefExpo exhibition 2004 a joint venture to produce long-range precision artillery munitions. The munitions for which the accordant Joint Venture was introduced were of two types: 1) 12kg high-explosive charge cargo shells with a 40km range; and 2) a 49 bomblet-composed Anti-Personnel Anti-Materiel cluster tank round employed against anti-tank squads and other targets. The munitions were intended for both use by the Indian army and for sale to other countries. Now, the first of these: the cargo ammunition, had its production launched under a joint venture between the OFB and IMI in 2006 (incidentally India's first joint production line with Israel) for which the OFB's state of the art Khamaria factory was designated. The mark of this munition was that it was designed and intended to maim not kill, under the operational doctrine favouring the incapacitation of enemy combatants rather than their termination to ensure the occupation of additional other enemy combatants in the evacuation and treatment of the former. Infact, Israel is purported to have used these munitions laced with high chemical content to cause severe burns and de-limbing during the Lebanon war. The second: the APAM cluster tank rounds is ostensibly what these five factories are set up for and will require Israeli collaboration, since of the 40 existing OFB factories, none have the technological know-how: to my mind, the munition is likely the L20 artillery cluster shell that Britain fired more than 2000 of from Howitzers in and around Basra during the Iraq war. A testament to the superiority of these Anti-Personnel Anti-Materiel cartridges is a British Ministry of Defence statement that the L20 had a failure rate of 2% compared with between 5% - 10% for older types of cluster weapons employed by Britain and US aircraft and fired by American rocket systems during the Gulf war. Incidentally, a spokesman for BAE systems in 2003 claimed that it had procured 26,000 of these lethal weapons shortly after the Iraq war.


    Furthermore, the deal itself was the result of extensive collaboration and negotiations with the Ordnance Factories Board, and while Taas will be the chief contractor in the deal, Indian and Israeli firms will also be subcontracted (perhaps as a counterpose to the rescindment of the offset clause). As well, according to a statement by an IMI source to Defence News, the venture will likely realize tens of millions of dollars in sales from third countries.
     
  11. kuku

    kuku Respected Member

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    Having seen the civilian products made by OFB, and used one personally, OFB and its factories need a lot more than technical help, they need a miracle, hope they make better military products.
     
  12. ZOOM

    ZOOM Founding Member

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    Horrible reporting by whomsoever involved in reporting such news.

    According mandate, if defence deal is exceeding the limit of $300 million and not Rs. 3 billion according to above article, then only exporter required to transfer some part of technology or invest some amount of contract in india.
     
  13. shiv

    shiv Regular Member

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    hey thanks for the extra info RAGE,by the way KUKU are you using an ofb .22 revolver??
     
  14. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    Earlier in NDA govt they wanted to set up defence factory in Bihar, this deals timing is not good, i dont know about the agreement, but usually govt agreement are drafted very carefully, that is my understanding.

    we have to understand that Israel has been a reliable defence partner, only problem is the price, which it charge.

    But the best part is we are almost equal partner and Israel too take weapons and other things from us, that helps our domestic industry.

    lets wait and see how things move from here.
     
  15. Pintu

    Pintu New Member

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    I agree with you totally Saya, Israel was has been a truely reliable Defence partner with us, technologically helped us and co operated with us, and supplied weapons in difficult times, in 1971 they supplied our Army with morter rounds, if I am not wrong. It is only in 1990's that we have started active defence cooperation with them.
     
  16. kuku

    kuku Respected Member

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    My brother is he has to travel with a lot of cash because of business, i was horrified at the finishing of the piece, i hope that the civilian arms factory are sad pathetic case when compared to the military ones.
     
  17. VayuSena1

    VayuSena1 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Lucrative kickbacks is the answer to all your questions here. I should not be saying this, but the top brass and acquisition committee has a jolly time getting kickbacks for thousands of crores of rupees while the indigenous scientists get paid in peanuts.
     

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