India Sends Stealth Warships to South China Sea

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The timing is wrong.
We are not yet ready to show our hand. We should finish the modernization of our forces first; not to mention the ongoing developments, upgrades, rearming and resupply etc.
Doing both simultaneously is better in such cases.
 

ezsasa

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I believe when it comes to China over the seas, it's not going to be india vs China. In all probability going to be some other country vs China but not india.

Army had more chances of being in direct conflict with Chinese than IN.

If we send our boats they will send some more sub trips to Karachi.

That's it, nothing much.
 
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I believe when it comes to China over the seas, it's not going to be india vs China. In all probability going to be some other country vs China but not india.

Army had more chances of being in direct conflict with Chinese than IN.

If we send our boats they will send some more sub trips to Karachi.

That's it, nothing much.
And Sri Lanka. They started it . They will also place subs in gwadar too. You sound like India should do nothing like they are doing about the Chinese troops in pok


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ezsasa

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And Sri Lanka. They started it . They will also place subs in gwadar too. You sound like India should do nothing like they are doing about the Chinese troops in pok


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India is doing something, IN is sending its ships into their territory.

These games will go on for more than a decade from now.

They will send some, we will send some.

Larger point I was making earlier was regarding direct confrontation.
 

Rahul Singh

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The timing is wrong.
We are not yet ready to show our hand. We should finish the modernization of our forces first; not to mention the ongoing developments, upgrades, rearming and resupply etc.
Modernization is a ever ongoing or continuous process. And unlike its sister services, Navy is not lagging behind in modernization. Its on sea and over sea assets are modern enough and expanding. Its air arm is already mordern enough. Arrival of MRHs and MRMPAs will complete the process. It has its own satellite in orbit. IRNSS has already been put into place. Even its submarine fleet started receiving new subs and replacement subs. With SSNs and SSBNs joining the under sea arm, there is increased need for such deployments for letting them cut their teeth. I won't be surprised if INS Chakra surfaces at some point during this deployment. Afterall this government has publicly succumbed to International pressure and postponed A-5 test launch. Yet this is same government which shy away from giving go ahead to 3500 km range SLBM testing.

Our way of dealing things is changing. Better get used to it.
 
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India is doing something, IN is sending its ships into their territory.

These games will go on for more than a decade from now.

They will send some, we will send some.

Larger point I was making earlier was regarding direct confrontation.
There will be direct confrontation simply because they intrude in Indian waters and prevent India in their water India has displayed enough weakness they stole Tibet if they want war then rip them apart


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kr9

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I want to put China in its place and I like that we are getting aggressive but:-----

Modernization is a ever ongoing or continuous process. And unlike its sister services, Navy is not lagging behind in modernization. Its on sea and over sea assets are modern enough and expanding. Its air arm is already mordern enough.

Our way of dealing things is changing. Better get used to it.
IN is top class. But our army and air force equipment is not. Deterrence and aggression requires a combined arms effort. We have been winning wars on the courage, endurance and sacrifice of our heroic soldiers. Our technology has never been game changing.

Now our R&D is getting a boost and has a chance to be great. I just wanted it to be a shocking surprise for our neighbours when the time comes.

The timing is never perfect, today is always better than tomorrow.
Not when tomorrow we could have an assured capability to stop them; whereas today we don't, to any great extent.

We will not be able to match China man-to-man, machine-to-machine in next several decades. Hence if we decide to wait then we may have to wait forever.

India has been forced to extend her reach because if we don't reach SCS, then China will certainly trap us in our own neighbourhood. We have been pushed in a situation where Offence is the best Defence, we don't have an option.
Doing both simultaneously is better in such cases.
I am all for going on the offensive. But we just made a dead end move without any intention or capability of a follow through (then this exercise would have been a strategic gain). Now the chance is lost. Any Indian offensive is the SCS (in case of war) will not have the element of surprise now that they know our reach and more importantly, our intentions.

Our efforts in Vietnam have a strategic merit in terms of national defence. This, sadly, does not.

PS:
Modernization does not require decades.
True, we cannot match China. But we can overtake Pakistan and take them out. And that is enough to hold China, when they know that they cannot flank us from our west.
 

adrenalin

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There is no point in having a navy of this size if it can't be a Blue Water one. Gone are the times when we were defensive and passive. Its time for others to know if they can play, we can play too, and harder.

BTW there is good possibility of this deployment having sea floor mapping as primery objective. Since China is aggressively changing the landscape of south china sea by erecting artificial islands, regular mapping is necessary. Not to forget where INS Arihant will go on patrol on any deployment. Its SBLMs having a range of just 3500 kms gives a good vivid hint.
We will not be able to match China man-to-man, machine-to-machine in next several decades. Hence if we decide to wait then we may have to wait forever.

India has been forced to extend her reach because if we don't reach SCS, then China will certainly trap us in our own neighbourhood. We have been pushed in a situation where Offence is the best Defence, we don't have an option.
Notice how cautious the deployment is? A missile boat, two frigates, and an oiler. No destroyers. Wish they at least sent a Delhi-class vessel to show PLAN 052C destroyers the finger.
good point. chinise gdp going down, tey become desparate. bring chinise manfacturng in india, and allow chinise to make noodle.
 

HariPrasad-1

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I'm not pleased. We have no sea dispute with China, we have a land dispute, let us stick to that. We should not act in any manner which benefits our other adversary, America. In fact, we should vehemently resist any attempts to form an anti-China coalition in SCS and use it as a bargaining chip. The situation should be such that unless India permits, US can't form any coalition in SCS. Give nuclear weapons to Vietnam and make them self sufficient. This will take away their need to be a part of any coalition. We should play spoilsoprt against American interests everywhere we can and squeeze handsome concessions out of them for any support we give them directly or indirectly. This "natural allies" business is bullshit. It means that our goals completely align and therefore India can be taken for granted since we have already declared prematurely that we will challenge China in SCS. Our narrative with the US must be "we don't wish to fight with China, so we have no inherent national interest in sending any ships to do your dirty work. We might send them, though, if you do *so and so things in return.."

*so and so things : US should cancel sale of F16 to Pakistan, cancel military aid, allow India to be a part to the Afghanistan reconciliation dialogue, US should withdraw discriminatory visa policies, and settle the WTO case against Indian solar companies amicably. US media will not broadcast anything about the internal matters of India like Kashmir or any other Christian missionary funded 'intolerance' drama.

If they do all these things, maybe, just maybe then we will send one ship to SCS. If not, they we give weapons to Vietnam and make them self-sufficient and even they will pull out of the US alliance.
No i think this is vital to convey the massage that this is not the India of UPA. We must give them continuous shocks of diplomacy and display of our strength and humiliate them like we did by dismentaling the string of pearls and near gulf while bringing VIkramaditya to India. That will make them respect us and our concern. Earlier they had written us off. Our china policy was so weak that even china did not need to tell anything to us and we will simply take care of chinese concern. Slap them diplomatically and by the show of strength. continue to do that till they fall in line.
 

Rahul Singh

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I want to put China in its place and I like that we are getting aggressive but:-----



IN is top class. But our army and air force equipment is not. Deterrence and aggression requires a combined arms effort. We have been winning wars on the courage, endurance and sacrifice of our heroic soldiers. Our technology has never been game changing.

Now our R&D is getting a boost and has a chance to be great. I just wanted it to be a shocking surprise for our neighbours when the time comes.



Not when tomorrow we could have an assured capability to stop them; whereas today we don't, to any great extent.





I am all for going on the offensive. But we just made a dead end move without any intention or capability of a follow through (then this exercise would have been a strategic gain). Now the chance is lost. Any Indian offensive is the SCS (in case of war) will not have the element of surprise now that they know our reach and more importantly, our intentions.

Our efforts in Vietnam have a strategic merit in terms of national defence. This, sadly, does not.

PS:
Modernization does not require decades.
True, we cannot match China. But we can overtake Pakistan and take them out. And that is enough to hold China, when they know that they cannot flank us from our west.
Greatest value of credible detrence is inherent ability to avoid any conflict. By extending our reach or better say displaying our real reach we are erecting deterence.

And only problem we ever had was self pity midset. It got to change. Then only modernization can take place at required pace in Army and Air Force. Take the case of navy. Navy could manage a carrier born fighter despite smaller requirement and here you have air force on side watch. Army could even manage a descent 5.56 assult rifle and on other side Navy could manage SSBNs and carriers. Now where do you problem is, in attitude or capability?

Mindset got to change. And these small steps are move towards that.
 

Navnit Kundu

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We will not be able to match China man-to-man, machine-to-machine in next several decades. Hence if we decide to wait then we may have to wait forever.

India has been forced to extend her reach because if we don't reach SCS, then China will certainly trap us in our own neighborhood. We have been pushed in a situation where Offence is the best Defence, we don't have an option.
It appears there are 5 different permutations of the possible solutions which each of us is combining and to form their opinion.

1)India should not join the US alliance.
2)India should join the US alliance.
3)India should join the US alliance before provoking China.
4)India can provoke China independently and join the US alliance only if push comes to shove.
5)India should not provoke China at all; we are not ready, we can do that when we are ready.

For me, 5) is not tenable, because there is no such thing as a completely ready country. The disparity is only increasing. I think 4) offers the best possible leverage for us now. We are ready to provoke China, but with our own might, the lollipop of EMALS which US is offering us in exchange for joining their alliance is just that, a lollipop. Besides, as long as China is being opposed, why should the US care if India is in an US-led alliance or an independent player? Therein lies the crux of the matter. Joining an alliance entails acting as one monolithic organism whose nerve center is the US, which is a proposition I am not fond of. We are capable of acting independently in co-ordination with the US if need be, but in US terms, co-ordination means India should submit to their beck and call and give up our autonomy.

What I am saying is, for something to be co-ordinated, it doesn't have to be in unison or joint venture, it can be a synchronized action of two independent entities. Can it not?

The US subterfuge about India needing the same communications suite as US warships is to take India's autonomy away, so that we cannot pull out of the alliance if we want to. Our biggest bargaining chip in this war is the ability to pull out. For example, tomorrow if China get's cold feet and preemptively offers certain concessions to us which are in our interest, should we not take it and backoff amicably (since our war is not ideological)? We wont be able to do that if we are in an 'alliance'. If you form an alliance, your nerve center will be taken over by the American parasite. We can always co-ordinate our attacks with the US if we want. If a war erupts, US forces can capture Area A and India can capture Area B, independently. So that, if China offers us something favorable in exchange for releasing Area B, we should be able to exercise that option instead of being talked down by the US. We shouldn't give in at any point in the negotiations, we should remain in a constant 'negotiation mode' to keep our enemies and so called allies on their toes constantly.

My main issue is only that we should take on China, and we should take a piggyback ride on top of ongoing US efforts by timing our own efforts such that the effects are maximized, but we must not get stuck in an alliance. Let US do the lion's share of the work, let us do the bare minimum, just enough to get China worried. After all, the very reason China has propped up Pakistan is to one day use them as a bargaining chip to assuage India. If, in exchange for dropping off the US alliance, China offers us resolution of land border issues, safety of our oil rigs in Vietnam and a mutual Sino-Indian non-aggression pact in case of an India-Pak war, why not take it? But in order to take it, we need to be free in our strategic options, which is not possible if there is an alliance. We cannot become 'two bodies one soul' with the US, we have to remain two bodies two souls.

Our current stance reflects this thinking, it seems. @tarunraju
 

tarunraju

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It appears there are 5 different permutations of the possible solutions which each of us is combining and to form their opinion.

1)India should not join the US alliance.
2)India should join the US alliance.
3)India should join the US alliance before provoking China.
4)India can provoke China independently and join the US alliance only if push comes to shove.
5)India should not provoke China at all; we are not ready, we can do that when we are ready.


Our current stance reflects this thinking, it seems. @tarunraju
IMO 5 is unlikely because India will never truly be ready for China. The Chinese have not stopped adding destroyers and submarines to their fleet, and I'm sure the Chinese military complex is sufficiently interested to keep PLAN ahead of Indian Navy in the IOR qualitatively, forever. Our best bet is to keep provoking China and getting close to whatever alliance has the strongest dispute with China's claims to SCS. We should open up our economy more and make the west hold India very dear, so it could back us the way it backs SCS claimants against China.
 

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Indian Navy’s warships visit South Korea; part of Eastern Fleet’s deployment to South China Sea
The ships are under the command of Flag Officer Commanding Eastern Fleet, Rear Admiral S V Bhokare, YSM. During the visit, the ships will have professional interaction with the Republic of Korea (ROK) Navy towards further enhancing co-operation between the two forces. (File photo)
In line with continuing focus on India’s ‘Act East’ policy, Indian Navy’s warships Sahyadri, Shakti and Kirch arrived today in Busan on a four day visit, as part of deployment of the Eastern Fleet to the South China Sea.
The ships are under the command of Flag Officer Commanding Eastern Fleet, Rear Admiral S V Bhokare, YSM. During the visit, the ships will have professional interaction with the Republic of Korea (ROK) Navy towards further enhancing co-operation between the two forces.
“In addition, calls on senior Government and military authorities, sporting and cultural interactions and sharing of best practices, aimed at strengthening ties and mutual understanding between the two Navies, are also planned. The visiting ships are also likely to conduct exercises with the ROK Navy, aimed at enhancing interoperability in communication as well as Search and Rescue procedures, post departure from Busan. INS Sahyadri is commanded by Captain K S Rajkumar, INS Shakti is commanded by Captain Gagan Kaushal and INS Kirch is commanded by Commander Sharad Sinsunwal,” said the Defence Ministry release.
Defence and Security relations between India and Republic of Korea have evolved steadily over the years and have received a renewed impetus with the visit of Indian defence delegation led by Defence Minister in April 16, the release said. “Subscription to training courses, participation in multi-lateral seminars/forums, reciprocal port visits, high-level delegations and training exchanges have bolstered naval cooperation between the two countries. In addition, both countries have forged ties in the field of military R&D, with MoU signed between Indian Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the Defence Acquisition Programme Administration (DAPA) of RoK. The last visit by an IN ship to Republic of Korea was in October 2015, when Sahyadri berthed at Incheon,” it added.
The current visit seeks to enhance maritime cooperation between the Indian Navy and the ROK Navy. It will further bolster the strong bonds of friendship between India and Republic of Korea and contribute to security and stability in this vital part of the world, the release concluded.
 

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At least two guys have said things to the effect that India will never be ready vis-a-vis china. Are you sure. And how are you sure.

Just to give you a perspective on naval power. The gross tonnage, the fire power, the endurance, the support vessels all matter. And Chinese and Indian Navies are built very very differently. China is far far more capable compared to India, of ensuring that their opponents do not come within 1000 km of their coast. They have too much fire power at their disposal. India is, speaking on proportionate basis, focused around long legged ships with fire power enough to guarantee dissuasive power. And Indian Navy is less threatening almost by design, probably because our own leadership did not want to persue a solution at sea, over long periods of our history.

Chinese fire power dwindles sharply almost precipitously beyond the straits and ours has the ready option to remain almost as strong till the Malaca straits. So while it is true that the long term threat from China cannot be ignored, you still cannot ignore the long term balance of forces. Recently the Chinese had claimed that they can blockade India with 10 Subs. Chances are their war plans department was already huffing and puffing to put that many subs, up against India, being surrounded by US, Japanese, South Korean Navies with the persistent uncertainty created by the feisty Vietnamese Navy while at the same time not being supported in any real measure by the Russian Navy. So Chiese navy is not exactly possess a persuasive power.

Moreover and unfortunately for the Chinese the Indian Navy does not even need to travel into South China Sea to very nearly blockade the Chinese. If you look at the sea lines of communication, most of the IOR sea traffic passes within 200 km of Indian coast. Even the Indian Coast Guard if differently enabled can cause major problems for the Chinese.

So basically the assessment of threat based merely on the current increase in ship building is not representative of how the real force will get used eventually. Part of the reason GoI is going slow on things like joint patrol etc. is that it would make Indian interference look out of place and proportion. Let some time go bye and you will see both the Indian Navy as well as the PLAN make forays into each other's backyard.

We are not exactly ill placed and ill equipped against the Chinese in naval terms. I could elaborate if somebody is interested but there is more to it then is being mentioned in the Media.

More a case of Indian naval dissuasive power being convincingly and permanently outside the capacity envelop of the Chinese naval persuasive power. Something that has been faced by the Americans themselves when they too avoided pushing us too hard lest we end up hosting Soviet Naval base in the IOR. Also the reason why today the US-PACOM is chasing Indian Navy and sections of Indian armed forces beginning to behave like Pakistan of the 50s trying to sleep with the erstwhile meddler in Indian affairs.
 
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@Yumdoot

Great post. I want to add India being in an alliance with USA and Japan that more or less has China surrounded does not need
Power projection.. Striking within 1000km is an arbitrary number? US carriers and subs get near the Chinese coastline routinely,The reason I am stating this is the simple fact I do not see India acting alone using the navy against China .


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prohumanity

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Why should India take extreme position against China ? I don't understand this. If west has problem with China ,let them deal with it.....why India is being dragged in their fight ?
What India will do once outsiders are successful in creating a bitter enmity between India and China and they go back to their countries...leaving India and China fighting and destroying each other....West is smart and knows how to fool the Asian fools ...and continue the hegemony for another ten thousand years. Divide and conquer ..it worked before and going to work again as your brains have not evolved enough to understand the imperial brains complexity.
 

Kshatriya87

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We are not exactly ill placed and ill equipped against the Chinese in naval terms. I could elaborate if somebody is interested but there is more to it then is being mentioned in the Media.
Please elaborate. Your post was intriguing and now I'm keen to know more.
 

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