India Selects Pilatus Basic Trainer!!!

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by F-14, Oct 3, 2009.

  1. F-14

    F-14 Global Defence Moderator Senior Member

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    LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: India's Next Ab-initio Trainer Competition


    the condenters


    Amerriche SF-260TP

    Palitus PC-21

    Lockheed /KIA KT-1

    Grob-120TP

    HAL HT-40???

    EMB-312 Tuacon

    Hawker/beechcraft T-6 Texan/Harvard II
     
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  3. Dark Sorrow

    Dark Sorrow Respected Member Senior Member

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    India's Next Ab-initio Trainer Competition

    Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal PV Naik announced yesterday that the government would soon be putting out a tender for 80 ab-initio trainer airplanes. The six airplanes shown above are understood to be the tentative contenders for the competition. An additional 80-100 are to be of a type (HTT-40) developed and manufactured independently by HAL. HAL has, incidentally, put out its own RFI to all the above airplanes' manufacturers for a technical assistance/JV tie-up for the indigenous ab-initio trainer that will succeed the highly faulty HPT-32. For now, to the great consternation of the families of a lot of pilot cadets, an Air Vice Marshal of the Indian Air Force is studying the feasibility of conducting a quick stop-gap refurbishment of the HPT-32 fleet to push them for four-five years more.

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  4. Sridhar

    Sridhar House keeper Moderator

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    IAF gets MoD’s nod to acquire a basic trainer
    Ravi SharmaBANGALORE: The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has given the Indian Air Force (IAF), whose training fleet is presently in a squeeze, the go ahead to acquire, ‘off the shelf,’ 75 basic trainer aircraft.
    The Ministry’s decision comes in response to an urgent call from the IAF for an ab initio trainer, who, after the grounding of their Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) designed and manufactured Hindustan Piston Trainer-32 (HPT-32) last August, were left without this class of an aircraft to train flight cadets.
    Official sources confirmed that the IAF will shortly send out a request for proposal (RFP) to a number of basic turbo prop aircraft manufacturers including Embraer (for their Tucano), Pilatus (PC-21), Raytheon (T-6 Texan), Finmeccanica (M-311), Grob Aircraft (G-120TP) and Korea Aerospace Industries (KT-1) in an effort to choose an appropriate trainer.
    The grounding of the 125-strong HPT-32 fleet has meant that the IAF will perforce have to fast track the trainer’s selection process.
    However, the selection process is expected to take a year, as the IAF must go through the tender process.
    Given this scenario, a desperate IAF is even toying with the idea of introducing flying lessons for cadets at the Air Force Academy (AFA) near Hyderabad on the jet engine Kiran intermediate trainer.
    But the HPT-32 still remains grounded with the Court of Inquiry that went into the reasons for the July 31 crash which killed two IAF instructs, finding that the trainer’s engine ran dry.
    The HPT-32 has been plagued with engine cuts, a phenomena when the engine suddenly switches of in mid air. Ninety such incidents and 11 deaths have been reported since the trainer became operational in 1984.


    The Hindu : National : IAF gets MoD’s nod to acquire a basic trainer
     
  5. RPK

    RPK Indyakudimahan Senior Member

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    Indian air force prepares to launch basic trainer contest

    India's defence ministry has given its approval for the nation's air force to acquire 75 ab initio trainers as off-the-shelf replacements for its Hindustan Aeronautics HPT-32s. The 125-strong fleet was grounded in August, after two air force instructors were killed in a crash.

    An inquiry into the accident found that the aircraft's piston engine had run dry and cut out before the crash, and revealed that 90 such incidents had been recorded since the type's induction in 1984.

    The air force is expected to soon issue a request for proposals to basic turboprop trainer manufacturers including Alenia Aermacchi, Embraer, Grob Aircraft, Korea Aerospace Industries and Pilatus.
     
  6. JHA

    JHA Regular Member

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    time is ripe to induct private players in defence , HAL has already sucked a lot of tax payer's money with too little result.
     
  7. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

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    Defunct Humanity: Yak-130. The status of program.

    Tuesday, December 22, 2009

    [​IMG]

    In answer to a question. Yak-130 - is a program of high-subsonic trainer and light ground attack plane. Has started in 90th independently and became the first non-soviet military plane program. Further they have cooperated with Italian 'Aermacchi' while 'Yakovlev' intellectual property rights was merged with 'Aermacchi' financing. Then the problem for Italians was that they needed urgently a subsonic trainer which could fly with controllability on 40 degree angle of attack for 4th-5th gen fighter simulating. No early generation jet trainers can do it. After some years of joint venture they splitted and followed their (successful) project independently (M-346 trainer).

    The first Yak-130D variant was purely trainer, without even radar being put in nose cone (specifically shaped). Two Slovakian made DV-2S x2200 kgf engines (soviet licensing AI-25TL derivative) were used. In 2002 the Russian Air Forces asked for a combat-trainer variant with a radar (in addition for currently tested trainer). Thus the Ukraine-made AI-222-25 engine with 2516 kgf without afterburner was chosen for both. It allowed to rise the max mass from 8500 to 9000 kg. The newborn 'Saturn's Al-55 is remained a reliable reservoir engine for the program in case if the cooperation with Ukraine is broken down.

    Yak-130D Specs:

    Lenght , m 11.9
    Span, m 10.64
    Height, m 4.7
    Mass, kg
    max 8500
    normal 6000
    payload 3000
    hardpoints 9
    Fuel, kg
    max 2200
    normal 1600
    Speed max, km/h 1050
    Ferry range, km 2000
    Time of fly max, h 3
    Acceleration, G +8/-3
    Max stable acceleration, G 5
    Taking of speed, km/h 200
    Landing speed 195
    Running start , m 380
    Landing run, m 670

    Being soft-skinned (unlike Su-25), the combat variant is planned to be used only with a UAV/UCAV escort/combination. Yak130 technology is the basis for the prospective 'Irkut' (which 'Yakovlev' design house became a part) UCAV program. However, the level of planned commonality with Yak-130 will be not very high: as 40%. Other details are unknown due to classified character of most Russian UCAV programs. Would be assumed that after United Aircraft-building Corporation has merged the most of Russian aircraft building actives, they will merge the different big UCAV programs (MiG, Irkut, Tupolev) into one on the common technology basis.

    Current status:

    2007 - the trainer variant was over all tests and has been adopted for Air Forces, 62 units were contracted on 'flexible' contract with Russian VVS. The serial production is started on 'Sokol' plant (Nizhni Novgorod). Few units were made, exploitation data in RuAF is unknown. According to reliable sources the number of serial machines are following tests before entering service. The first was transferred for RuAF in summer. 09 (an officially report).

    Algerian contract, 16 units, trainer variant. 2-4 planes are allready made in Irkut (Irkutsk), first two have flied in July, 09, those are planned be transferred to Algeria in 2010 after completing the regular tests.

    Libyan contract. 6 units were contracted according to some sources. Probably in trainer configuration. Will be made in Irkutsk.

    Pre-contract negotiation with 'RosoboronExport' about totally 150 units with LA, ME, SE Asian and African countries ('National Defence' magazine, Aug, 09 and 'RosoboronExport' official reports). According to 'Irkut's representatives they are Indonesia, Vietnam, SArabia, Syria and Yemen.

    Indian tender. 'RosoboronExport' has received the Indian request of proposition for a trainer. The Indian side is ready to look for both Yak-130 and MiG-AT options.

    Malaysian tender. In Dec, 2009 was reported about participation in Malaysian tender for trainers, the competitors of Yak-130 will be the Britain 'Hawks' and 'Aermacchi' M-346

    Photo: Yak-130 for Algeria (Irkut, summer 2009, MAKS-2009)

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  8. ZOOM

    ZOOM Founding Member

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    Why do we still dependent upon foriegn nation to fulfill our basic need of basic jet trainers?
     
  9. bengalraider

    bengalraider DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    The HTT-40 still under development by HAL(see graphic below) was supposed to be the next Ab- Initio trainer for the IAF, however HAL has indicated that it needs more time to develop the same as per the IAF's needs, HAL is also looking for aforeign partner in order to develop it faster to make it more modern.

    [​IMG]

    the Import program envisages an import of 80 foreign airframes to be followed uop by another 80-100 of the HTT-40. It is due to an urgent requirement for new trainers that foreign trainer aircraft aer being considered, earlier the IAF trained on Prop trainers manufactured by HAL only.

    HAL currently manufactures the below light trainers
    HT-2
    HPT-32 Deepak
    HUL-26 Pushpak
     
  10. Wingman

    Wingman New Member

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    New Basic Trainer

    I came across the following article on Janes... Any thoughts as to which will fill the IAF requirement best? They're all broadly capable and I expect the one with the lowest through life cost will secure the contract. Would anyone know who is heading up the evaluation i.e. names/contact details?


    India moves to procure basic trainer fleet

    The Indian Air Force (IAF) has dispatched a request for proposals (RfP) to seven overseas manufacturers for the purchase of 75 basic turboprop trainers.

    India is seeking to replace its fleet of domestically constructed Hindustan Piston Trainer 32 (HPT-32) Deepak basic trainer aircraft, which were grounded in August 2009 following a series of fatal accidents.

    The RfP requires all bids to be submitted by 17 March and the contenders include: Embraer's Tucano; the EADS PZL PZL-130TC-2 Orlik; Grob's G 120TP; Finmeccanica's M-311; the Korea Aerospace Industries KT-1; the Pilatus PC-21; and Raytheon's T-6.

    According to the RfP's stipulations the first 12 of 75 trainers would need to be handed over to the IAF within 25 months of the contract being signed and all deliveries completed within 48 months.

    Official sources said the proposed 75 trainers were part of a larger requirement for around 180 but the decision on whether the remaining 105 would be imported or built in partnership with state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore, southern India, was pending.

    IAF officials said the force was eager to evaluate and sign the contract for the trainers in the "shortest time possible" as the force's training was "severely hampered".

    Industry sources said some of the rival contenders had offered to lease out their aircraft to instruct IAF pilots until the final selection was made but had received no response from the IAF HQ.

    The air force retired some 200 Stage-1 propeller-driven HPT-32s, which have two seats side-by-side, after 10 crashed between 1999 and 2009. The most recent accident occurred on 31 July and cost the lives of two instructors from the Air Force Academy (AFA) at Hyderabad, southern India.

    Following a crash in May 2008, in which a female IAF cadet died after fuel leaked into the HPT-32's engine, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) described the aircraft as "technologically outdated and beset by flight safety hazards".

    "In spite of the loss of 11 pilots and 15 aircraft, it [the HPT-32] continues to be used today. Further, [the] HPT-32 does not aid the smooth transition of trainees to the next stage of training," the CAG stated in its 2008 audit.

    IAF sources indicated to Jane's in 2009 that problems in 'mating' the HPT-32's Avco Lycoming AEIO-540-D4B5 engine with the airframe had led to problems that resulted in their grounding. IAF officials have declined to comment.

    Since the late 1980s nearly 150 IAF cadets received instruction on the HPT-32 before graduating to the HAL HJT-16 Kiran Mk I intermediate flight and weapons training aircraft.

    Thereafter, fighter pilots moved on to the BAE Systems Hawk 132 Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT), which entered service in November 2007.

    However, with the HPT-32s grounded for nearly six months, a batch of AFA cadets have been trained directly on the Kiran Mk I, placing undue pressure on the aircraft's availability.
     
  11. RPK

    RPK Indyakudimahan Senior Member

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    IAF lacks basic flight training aircraft: India Today - Latest Breaking News from India, World, Business, Cricket, Sports, Bollywood.

    The Indian Air Force (IAF) is staring at a terrible truth. An entire batch of pilots has been commissioned into the force without proper critical and compulsory basic flight training.

    Headlines Today has learnt that IAF, the world's fourth largest air force, lacks the most basic aircraft for stage 1 flight training.

    The IAF employed the HPT 32 as a stage 1 trainer. But after a spate of accidents, the aircraft was grounded in 2009. No replacements have been provided so far.

    This has led to rookie pilots being pushed into stage 2 of flight training without any basic flying experience. In the absence of a trainer aircraft, the IAF has also had to scrap two courses of flight training instructors.

    As a stop-gap arrangement, the IAF has been taking 4-6 aircraft on loan from various flying clubs. But with these aircraft not matching up to military standards, the lives of young pilots are at stake.

    In 2001, the IAF sought a replacement for the HPT 32 stage 1 trainer. Almost a decade has gone but the government is yet to act.

    In 2008-09, as many as 27 crashes were reported in which 11 pilots lost their lives. Thereafter, the government decided to ground the HPT 32 and started considering a new trainer aircraft.

    But that would take another five years whereas the aircraft should have been already made available. The blame for the delay has to be shared both by the government and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which built the HPT 32 but failed to deliver a replacement.

    Defence Minister A.K. Antony has assured that the grievance of the IAF will be addressed
     
  12. sandeepdg

    sandeepdg Senior Member Senior Member

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    What a bloody shame !! Dreaming about operating next genr. stealth fighter in its fleet, poor IAF does not have basic trainers to trains its rookie cadets, but its no fault of theirs. The defense ministry should give utmost importance to this issue and take drastic action regarding buying basic trainers if need be off the shelf from the companies whom the IAF has sent its RFP.
     
  13. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    It's an absolute mumpin' shame! The IAF has warned the Defence Ministry that the number of basic trainer aircraft required is approximately 100, and unless we can avail of some of them soon, via some sort of lease-and-operate arrangement, we'll be stuck giving our pilots inadequate elemental training and shoving them right off on to the Kiran Mk1.

    This might give you some idea of why there've been recent crashes of the HPT-32:

    From Avco-Lycoming's online pinna, I was able to garner that the flat, obsolescent six-piston AEIO-540-D4B5 engines atop the HPT-32 has a dry weight of 386 lbs (175kg).

    http://www.lycoming.textron.com/engines/aerobatic/pdfs/Aerobatic insert.pdf


    From other sources, I was able to gather that the (stronger) AEIO-540-D4B5 engines (on board the HPT-32) have a typical engine power rating of 194 kW (260 hp), with the ability to coax out a maximum of 221 kW (296 hp) in certain situations. That would give it a typical power-weight ratio of 386lbs/260hp = 1.485lbs/hp. Now, from HAL's website, the HPT-32 has a standard/operating empty weight of 2112 lbs (906 kg.), and with a wing area of 15.0 m², I reckon it has a 'minimum' wing-loading ratio of 13.038 lbs/ft² and a power-loading ratio of 8.123lbs/hp. Now, since Thrust=Power * TAS, and given a max speed at SL of 264kmph, I reckon the thrust rating of an engine needed to propel something like this through airspace needs to be substantially over the area of 260*264=68,640lbs. At present, most ab-initio trainers or aerobatic sports aircraft that employ the Lycoming AEIO-540-D4B5 like the Zlin Z-50, are significantly lighter, with significantly smaller MTOW's and empty-weights, as well as larger wing-areas.


    There also seem to be some quality-control issues with the fuel systems, with fuel cut-off occurring during normal flight, particularly during the last several incidents.

    Even as far back as 1995, when a high level joint IAF-HAL team found 409 engine-related snags, grave doubts were put on the reliability of the aircraft. I don't know how Air HQ has expected neophyte pilots to deal with the myriad complications arising out of flying this hulking rust.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
  14. Zoravar

    Zoravar Regular Member

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    I saw a report on some news channel that dubbed the deepak as the real flying coffin.///////bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
     
  15. Parashuram1

    Parashuram1 Regular Member

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    As a Swiss, I would sincerely recommend Pilatus PC-21 trainer. It is extremely versatile and would be suitable for all of Indian needs. Many countries use this aircraft as their ab-initio trainers and it comes with the guarantee of Swiss technology.
     
  16. Zoravar

    Zoravar Regular Member

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    This isnt a watch that there is a guranttee of swiss technology.But you could be right about the other things I personally dont know.
     
  17. Sridhar

    Sridhar House keeper Moderator

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    IAF to procure 181 basic trainer jets

    BY : PTI
    The Indian Air Force has initiated the process to procure 181 basic trainer jets for training its rookie pilots, the Government said today.
    “Request for Proposals have been floated for procuring 75 basic trainer aircraft on multi-vendor basis and 106 aircraft will be built by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL),” Defence Minister A K Antony said in written reply to Rajya Sabha.
    The IAF is procuring these aircraft for replacing the fleet of HPT-32, which were grounded after a fatal air crash on July 31 last year.
    “IAF decided to ground its fleet of HPT-32s till certain modifications were carried out by HAL to ensure safety and airworthiness of the aircraft,” the Minister added.
    HPT-32s, also known as Deepak, were being used for induction-level flying training for young pilots at the Air Force Academy in Dindigul, Andhra Pradesh.


    http://idrw.org/?p=630
     
  18. Sridhar

    Sridhar House keeper Moderator

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    In Rajya Sabha Today:-

    [​IMG]Defence Minister A K Antony replied in Rajya Sabha today:

    Lack of basic trainer aircraft in IAF
    :

    Subsequent to a fatal accident on July 31, 2009, Air Headquarters decided to grounds its fleet to HPT-32 aircraft till certain modifications were carried out by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to ensure the safety and airworthiness of the aircraft. To ensure uninterrupted basic flying training, surplus Kiran MK1/1A trainer aircraft are being utilised to impart Stage I and Stage II flying training to trainee pilots. Adequate Kiran MK1/1A aircraft are available to the IAF presently.
    Request for Proposal have been floated for procurement of 75 basic trainer aircraft on multi-vendor basis. In addition, 106 basic trainer aircraft will be built by M/s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.



    http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2010/02/in-rajya-sabha-today.html
     
  19. enlightened1

    enlightened1 Member of The Month JANUARY 2010

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    The Indian Air Force’s crisis in training its pilots saw a farcical twist recently when an Egyptian diplomat posted in India helpfully offered Cairo’s assistance. The Egyptian Air Force, he suggested to a senior IAF officer, could send a training team to Hyderabad, along with several of its trainer aircraft, the K-8 Karakorum. Was the Egyptian aware that the Karakorum trainer has been jointly developed by Pakistan and China? Nobody is certain but, since the offer was not followed up in writing, the Indian Air Force (IAF) was spared the embarrassment of having to reply.

    Even as the IAF spends billions of dollars in a global shopping spree for fighters, helicopters and transport aircraft, the training of pilots to fly these has been practically stalled since last July. That was when the IAF’s notoriously unreliable basic trainer, the HPT-32 Deepak, was grounded after a horrific crash that killed two experienced pilots. In 17 Deepak crashes so far, 19 pilots have died.

    The Deepak, as the IAF has long known, has two major design flaws. When it flies upside-down the flow of fuel gets blocked, shutting the engine; and, since the Deepak cannot glide without engine power for even a short distance, a serious crash in inevitable.

    [​IMG]

    The IAF’s concern is evident from the radical methods it is exploring. It now proposes to fit each Deepak with an enormous parachute that opens when the engine shuts off, bringing down the aircraft slowly with the crew still in their seats. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which manufactures the Deepak, is being asked to fit a number of trainers with this Ballistic Recovery System (BRS). It remains unclear whether the Deepak has the structural strength to support a BRS.

    Meanwhile, improvisation governs training. After evaluating and ruling out several options — including training IAF flight cadets in civilian flying clubs; or handing over training to foreign contractors on a “Power by the Hour” payment basis — the IAF is now putting absolute rookies into the relatively complex, jet-engined Kiran Mark-1 aircraft for their very first taste of flying. The Kiran, too, has a dubious safety record, with 13 serious crashes over this last decade.

    Before the Deepak was grounded, it took 80 hours of basic training on that aircraft before selected cadets — only those found fit to become fighter pilots — graduated to the Kiran Mark-1. The third stage of training was on the Kiran Mark-2; which the Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) is gradually replacing. After those three stages of training, IAF pilots graduated to the frontline fighters that they would fly into battle.

    “Conducting basic training on a jet aircraft is risky”, admitted a senior IAF decision-maker to Business Standard. “But what choice do we have? The air force must have pilots to fly its planes.”

    In fact, the IAF has several good choices, but all of them are some time away. To replace the “Stage-1” Deepak trainer, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has approved the fast-track purchase of 75 aircraft from the global market. Requests for Proposals (RfPs) have gone out to 10 aircraft manufacturers. The hot contenders include the Pilatus PC-21 (Switzerland); Embraer Tucano (Brazil); and the Grob (Germany). Bids are due before April 14, but the aircraft will be delivered only by 2013-14.

    For “Stage-2” training, that is, to replace the Kiran Mark-1, HAL is developing an Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), the Sitara. The IAF is pleased with the prototype, and has ordered a limited series production of 12 aircraft. Eventually, the air force plans to buy 73 Sitaras, but it will take at least 3-4 years before it is available in the numbers needed for organised training.

    Finally, for the “Stage-3” training, the Hawk should have been available in large enough numbers by now. But, production delays at HAL, accompanied by a blame-game between HAL and the Hawk’s vendor, BAE Systems, has meant that just 29 Hawks have entered service against the scheduled induction of 44 Hawks by now.

    A much needed strategy for training IAF pilots has now become clear. Before the trainers to implement this plan are obtained, several years of makeshift training lie ahead for the air force.
     
  20. Sridhar

    Sridhar House keeper Moderator

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  21. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    Wow! A basic fighter-trainer that suffers from fuel-flow problems in the inverted flight mode, eh? Who woulda thought?

    What has the H.A.L. come to!

    Even I know that a simple inverted fuel-feed system can be constructed using a fuel injector and a 'flop tube', and in the case of an aircraft with wing-based fuel tanks, an additional header tank and check-valve for gravity-based feeds. And heck, I'm no engineer!

    As for the K-8 Karakourum offer, thanks but no thanks. I'm glad the IAF conveyed to our egyptian brethren a flat-out no. Pakistan has a 25% stake with CATIC in the K-8 project. And we ain't that desperate.

    That still doesn't exonerate us from the fact that we badly need an ab-initio trainer, though. And one without flawed spin characteristics.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2010

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