India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

[Armand2REP]

I wonder where you got the figure for PAK-FA being 0.5 m^2. AFAIK, not even the aviation experts know much about it's RCS. Most experts mention 0.1 m^2 - which I believe is significantly less.

Ajay Shukla

Which CDL are you refering to? The Global Hawk? I thought the IAF was waiting for the Indian indigenous AWACS before getting it's 20+ number, which is supposed to arrive sometime around 2014-2015.

CDL = Common Data Link, India is getting one soon.

As for not feeling any insecurity about Germany (which is reasonable) or ANY of your neighbors, it oddly reminds me of the 1930s. Or is that why France has been maintaining and building it's missile stockpile - and unloading them every once in a while on it's "not so neighbors" in Asia - Vietnam (1950s), Korea (1950s); North Africa - Egypt (1950s), Morocco (1950s), Tunisia (1950s), Algeria (1960s); Rest of Africa - Zaire (1960s), Madagaskar (1960s), gabon (1960s and 1970s), Kongo (1970s), rest of the world - Lebanon (1980s), Gulf War (1990s) --- and on and on, none of these are including the UN peace-keeping missions that france has taken part it.
So, in short, France does not feel that it has much of a threat from it's neighbiors, yet builds up and keeps it's military force one of the largest in the world and takes part in wars frequently, that have very little to do with french interests - hmmmm. Sounds SO like the interventionist USA.

Unlike the 1930s, there is no military buildup in Europe to worry about. With our 300 nukes, no one would even think about it. France never gave up its spot as a Global Power and as an UNSC permanent seat, we have to enforce UN resolutions. Every recent action has been under UN mandate unlike the US illegal wars.

So, tell me again, why do you guys criticize the USA for being a global policeforce?

US moves without the UN, we don't.

 

[asianobserve]

US moves without the UN, we don't.

Frenchies are pissed off everytime the US moves unilaterally. Why? It reminds them that they are already second class power without much hold on international affairs. While France if it wants to show off its newwest military gadgets still needs Uncle Sam's and the rest of the UNSC's consent. You see, Frenchies love their egos and they have them supersized, of course disproportionately with their real power (or lack of it.)...

 

[Armand2REP]

Yanks are pissed that French aren't their British whipping boys to follow them wherever they go. We actually have our own foreign policy that doesn't include USA. It is actually centred on running the affairs of the EU which is more important than them. It reminds them that they aren't as influential as they think they are. You see, Yankies love their egos and they have them supersized, of course disproportionately with their real influence (or lack of it.)...

PS, every war the US fights isn't unilateral. They consist of coalitions of dozens of nations so where is the power?

 

[KS]

PS, every war the US fights isn't unilateral. They consist of coalitions of dozens of nations so where is the power?

What you say about the US and French foreign policy might be true -

but regarding the NATO fights, US is clearly the undisputed leader and we should be honest enough to acknowledge it.

In Libya we saw ample proof of that.

 

[Armand2REP]

Not really, France destroyed 3000 targets to the US' 300. 10X more and France didn't use US recon assets thanks to their slow clearance times. France did her job on her own minus a few tanker sorties. That will be remedied when we replace these obsolete Boeing tankers with Airbus MMRT.

 

[KS]

Not really, France destroyed 3000 targets to the US' 300. 10X more and France didn't use US recon assets thanks to their slow clearance times. France did her job on her own minus a few tanker sorties. That will be remedied when we replace these obsolete Boeing tankers with Airbus MMRT.

Was that because the US did not participate in frontline sorties and decided to work from behind ?

Also tell me who did the SEAD missions ?

I am not blindly supporting the US - but the cold hard truth whether the frenchies like it or not is that in NATO the US is the leader and others are below it and the NATO functions as a solid unit when US leads it. Its the situation as of now which may chnage in the future.

 

[Armand2REP]

Who did the SEAD? We took out dozens of SAM sites, par example a la fini...

 

[asianobserve]

Not really, France destroyed 3000 targets to the US' 300. 10X more and France didn't use US recon assets thanks to their slow clearance times. France did her job on her own minus a few tanker sorties. That will be remedied when we replace these obsolete Boeing tankers with Airbus MMRT.

Another bombastic Frenchie claim: First, the US provided the political cover for the Libyan intervention. The half-hearted US approval (yes approval., this is bad for French egos) made the whole operations possible. Without US go signal the British, other NATO allies and the ME contingents would not have dipped their fingers in the affair. Can France alone do the Libyan campaign? NO! Second, the pre-full scale air campaign was made possible only by US decapitation strikes. French trying to win the acolade may have pulled the trigger for the first burst of Western ammos but it was the USAF that ensured that the rest of the sorties can operate with impunity.

You see, this is no longer the 19th century and France is no longer the "power" that it once was. What it retained though, in abundance, is chest thumping better than thou pride. Hell, even one of its last colony Vietnam is not running to it for cover in its latest confrontation with Vietnam. Who is to for assistance? the US and the new regional power India.

 

[Armand2REP]

Another bombastic Yankie claim: First, France drafted UNSC 1973 and got the Arab League to agree to it and got Russia not to veto thanks to our Mistral deal. Obama was dragged into it when the Neocons pressed him on his weak defence policies. Rafales were flying over Libya gathering recon 3 days before the Paris Summit to map Libyan air defences. The coordinates those Tomahawks used were gathered by FRENCH intel. It was Scalp EG and AASM taking out SAM systems as well. The US didn't even want to start a bombing campaign until Sarko showed them up by saving Benghazi.


You see, this is no longer the 20th century and US is no longer the "power" it once was. They have been so overstretched and bankrupted by the GWOT they can no longer take the lead in international operations. France had to do so in Libya and Cote d'Ivoir because she is the only Western power left with the resources to fight three wars at once. Yankies can chest thump all they want to, but they have shown they are too broke to maintain the operations they once did.

 

[asianobserve]

Another bombastic Yankie claim: First, France drafted UNSC 1973 and got the Arab League to agree to it and got Russia not to veto thanks to our Mistral deal. Obama was dragged into it when the Neocons pressed him on his weak defence policies. Rafales were flying over Libya gathering recon 3 days before the Paris Summit to map Libyan air defences. The coordinates those Tomahawks used were gathered by FRENCH intel. It was Scalp EG and AASM taking out SAM systems as well. The US didn't even want to start a bombing campaign until Sarko showed them up by saving Benghazi.


You see, this is no longer the 20th century and US is no longer the "power" it once was. They have been so overstretched and bankrupted by the GWOT they can no longer take the lead in international operations. France had to do so in Libya and Cote d'Ivoir because she is the only Western power left with the resources to fight three wars at once. Yankies can chest thump all they want to, but they have shown they are too broke to maintain the operations they once did.

LOL! French version. Daydreaming huh?

 

[asianobserve]

The US hesitation was not over its inability to wage the campaign but over domestic politics. The Obama administration didn't liked to be seen as too eager to open up a new war for America again. That is why the elaborate efforts to maintain a low key presence during the war. Note that for the scale of the air campaign that the US did it did not even send a super carrier from the 5th Fleet to the area. Had the US done this it would have been immediately seen as US leading the role as any of their super carriers easily dwarf the French de Gulle. Note further that aerial ops from US carriers would have been more practical given the access to Lybian targets from the sea.

America's Secret Libya War: U.S. Spent $1 Billion on Covert Ops Helping NATO - The Daily Beast

 

[asianobserve]

Anyway, back to topic, to the credit of the French the Rafale showed more versatility than the Eurofighter in the Libyan air campagin. But the French (and British) soon run low of precision attack munitions stock. This is the reason why even the Danish notched more strikes during the campaign than UK. Other European forces that were using F16 had more supply of precision attack weapons than the French and British. And this should be a notice to future buyers of French and even the European consortium of the Eurofighter weapons. In case of a full blown war, can they supply weapons quickly and sufficiently enough for extended periods?

 

[Armand2REP]

France and the UK never ran out of munitions. We had enough and the UK bombs dropped were so small to hardly put a dent in their stocks. The Danes and Norwegians ran out of munitions in the first few weeks on their US made F-16s. This should be a notice to future buyers of American made fighters to make sure you keep a big enough reserve.

 

[SpArK]

MMRCA Final Meet Friday, Bids Open Month-end

IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Norman Browne today said the two final commercial bids in the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) -- from Dassault for the Rafale and EADS for the Typhoon -- will be opened by the end of this month. On October 7, the MoD's Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) will hold a final meeting on the programme, and, according to the IAF chief, "sort out any final issues before the bids are opened".


Livefist: MMRCA Final Meet Friday, Bids Open Month-end

 

[ace009]

"sort out any final issues before the bids are opened".

What does that mean? Any MoD or MoF officials who have not got on the MMRCA gravy train, please do so before it leaves the station?

 

[SpArK]

Great video on the hornets..


Wings of change for F/A-18, EA-18G programs (Video)

 

[Immanuel]

France and the UK never ran out of munitions. We had enough and the UK bombs dropped were so small to hardly put a dent in their stocks. The Danes and Norwegians ran out of munitions in the first few weeks on their US made F-16s. This should be a notice to future buyers of American made fighters to make sure you keep a big enough reserve.

NATO Runs Short of Munitions in Libya: Report - Defense News

France too had low supply of weapons.

 

[Armand2REP]

Rejection of said report...

NATO Denies Reported Bomb Shortage in Libya - Defense News

 

[Sancho]

Was that because the US did not participate in frontline sorties and decided to work from behind ?

Also tell me who did the SEAD missions ?

I am not blindly supporting the US - but the cold hard truth whether the frenchies like it or not is that in NATO the US is the leader and others are below it and the NATO functions as a solid unit when US leads it. Its the situation as of now which may chnage in the future.

SEAD was done by F18 Growlers, F16 CJs and Rafales and there is no doubt about that the US is the leading country in the NATO, be it politically, or in the military sence BUT...the Libyan campain was at least equally lead by the French, which impressed me, because it showed that there is still a European country that would be able to do so!
UK is a veto power, but not the great nation it was in the past and the financial crisis made it even worse, especially for the military. The French instead showed not only how political influential they are, by convincing even countries like the UAE and Qatar to join, let alone the UK and the US which are not known to be their closest allies, but also how capable their forces are. It was not only French air force that joint the air strikes, but also French navy with the CdG carrier, which just arrived from their missions in Afghanistan and exercises with IN and UAE. They were also deployed in missions in Kosovo protecting the no fly zone there and intervened in the conflicts at the Ivory Coast and still were able to take over the lead in the Libyan conflict.
They might not be able to match the US, but clearly impressed the world during this conflict and showed why they will remain a UNC veto power and a leading country in Europe.
For India this was also an important point, because it showed once again that France could be not only a close ally, but an important strategic partner for India, even at the same level as Russia, or Israel.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

French contribution to the Libyan campaign is overstated.