India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

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sukhish

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not exactly bang on. india of today is not india of 2008, when it got nuclear deal. EF will bent over backwards to give india the TOT ( trust me on this one ). there will be a lot more $10 billion deals in future to come, may not be in defense, but in other areas, FDI in retail, banking and insurance etc. so just assuming that fighter deal is plain stupidity is not true. I think it was vice decision for long term. everybody looks from US optics. how many times have US asked india before giving PAK F-16's in the past, which in turn support terror in india. stop be shortsighted.
 

prahladh

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One $10 billion deal would alienate friends! how about Hercules/ P-8i..etc...What would they get us.
 

Yusuf

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Yeah right, how about india saying we buy your fighters, stop giving free ones to pak? We can't do that now. The US put it's soul into this deal induing their prez. How serious they were about it can be gauged by the immediate resignation of their ambassador.
 

Yatharth Singh

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Problem I see with EFT is involvement of 4 countries and it will always cause delays and complications. EFT is not a developed product and many critical components specially AESA radar is under development. If we go for EFT we should be prepared for delays delivery will not be speedy.
on advantages EFT consortium is willing to offer partnerships in many future developments like AESA. we will get technology but will have to bear the development cost as well. while on other hand Rafale is a fully developed product and delivery should be speedy . Also Rafale is cheaper that EFT .
I already quoted above that why typhoon is costly. Rafael is good but Typhoon is best. If chosen then it will open doors for Indian access to its highly valuable technologies. Remember about that pilot helmet which Eurofighter once mentioned of, that will be given to IAF ? And those issues about the AESA are just upgrades for IAF. Typhoon is a completed project brother and as mentioned by you only, it is already operated by four nations from past couple of years.
 

SixSigma1978

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Had they narrowed down to 1 US vs 1 European - it might have been the best compromise.
EF typhoon's a good plane - but not so sure on Rafale.
 

Param

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Yeah right, how about india saying we buy your fighters, stop giving free ones to pak? We can't do that now. The US put it's soul into this deal induing their prez. How serious they were about it can be gauged by the immediate resignation of their ambassador.
Then what was the need for such a long drawn out competition for years?We could have straight away given the deal to the US and proven our "strategic intelligence"
 
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Yeah right, how about india saying we buy your fighters, stop giving free ones to pak? We can't do that now. The US put it's soul into this deal induing their prez. How serious they were about it can be gauged by the immediate resignation of their ambassador.
US did put their heart into this deal, IMO if USA had prevented the Pak-China nuclear deal SH would have been shorltisted ??
 

Armand2REP

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Ok, LF i got that but i am speaking more on strategical importance than just economical.
Do you really think GoI appreciates US arming its most hated enemy for free? Are Taliban piloting F-22s and battleships now? You think they forgot US sanctions? India rewards nations that go out of their way to recognise India's concerns. Both France and Germany have denied sale of weapons to Pakistan, avionics/missiles and submarines. You guys are fooling yourselves if you think US will fight to protect India... remember what Nixon said to China.... attack India. You say, well GoI has already bought billions from US. Answer, only out of need because Russia can't get them made. C-17s and P-8Is were ordered because IL-76 and IL-38 production lines are shut down and India can't wait for Russia to get their act together. It is not out of love for the US.
 

Yusuf

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Then what was the need for such a long drawn out competition for years?We could have straight away given the deal to the US and proven our "strategic intelligence"
Sure why not. FMSed it. We would have had a couple of squads in by now.
 

nitesh

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Why thinking too much over US planes gets rejected? Haven't they put sanction on 2052 radar? Why they did not thought about India's reaction? Let's not over analyze what US can think
 

Param

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Why thinking too much over US planes gets rejected? Haven't they put sanction on 2052 radar? Why they did not thought about India's reaction? Let's not over analyze what US can think
Yes we should not give too much importance to what US thinks. Just imagine the hue and cry if two American aircraft had been selected instead.
 

sayareakd

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Guys, uncle's plane were not selected because they were not as per the requirement of IAF. It was reported that they failed many test including test at lah. So better fighter has won.
 

Parthy

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Its none but US dig their own pit in the deal...

1. They stood against in raising the par for visas
2. provided more & more billions as aid to Pakistan even after expressing our discomfort in arming them
3. Removing critical technologies (re-fuelling probe .... ) from C130
4. High price tag for C17 than normal price for which they sold to Australian Air force.
5. Tried to align more with China.
6. Kept India out of action in Afghanistan just to get bases in Pakistan.

All those US strategic advantage are just bluffs and merely words.. They can't do anything in favor of India. who are our real threats?? Pakistan & China!!!

They already aligned with Pakistan providing free US tax payers money as aids and arming them in terms of fighting terrorism.. In case of, Indo-Pak war they will not stand against Pakistan completely... In case of any tension with China, even in that case US will not stand against China for the sake of India....

US sees China as its competent than Russia.. It should be either 'Friend' or 'Foe'.. To make China as 'Foe' US current strategic interest, defence cuts & expenditures etc will not allow.. And its evident how fast Chinese can develop their defence and really can stand against US interest in pacific all alone.... So they will really try to make them as a 'Friend'..

Yes we did moved a bit close to US than ever before.. I don't see any big Strategic support from US at least in this decade..

Eliminating the US fighters is going to affect us bit on strategic and India's interest on a Global role. But MMRCA is more about a better fighter to serve & defend our territorial interest.. So the decision looks pretty good so far.. Lets wait for the offset and rebid...
 

Parthy

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Fighter jet rebuff, Roemer exit, signal US-India distance

In an alphabet soup of acronyms that spell informal diplomatic tie-ups featuring India, there's the newbie BRICS, the neighbourhood SAARC, the spread-out IBSA, the under-stated BIMSTEC, the formidable ASEAN, and the hoary NAM, not to speak of the various Gs that have nothing to do with spectrum: from G-77 to G-20. But there's one big association that has repeatedly failed to live up to promise for much of this decade: Indo-US.

On Thursday, the emerging alliance was dealt a significant blow when New Delhi rejected two American firms from a massive jet aircraft deal while pencilling in two European firms for final selection.

There was dismay in Washington at the decision, particularly since the Obama administration and proponents for a strong U.S-India strategic alliance had invested much energy in lobbying for the two American fighter jets - from Lockheed Martin and Boeing - which were in the race.

"There is an acute sense of disappointment in the US Government about this decision," said Ashley Tellis, a Carnegie Endowment scholar who authored a 140-page report titled "Dogfight" on the India's Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) decision. "As best I can tell, the downselect was made entirely on the basis of the technical evaluations - the cost of the aircraft or the strategic considerations did not enter into the picture."

Indeed, Tellis, who was also a key figure in the U.S-India civilian nuclear deal, had indicated in his study that the Eurofighter, one of the two finalists, would edge to the top of the list in terms of overall sophistication. But, he had argued, "having an American airplane in the IAF livery would simply be transformative for bilateral defence relations and it would send an important signal about the changing geopolitical dynamics in South Asia." U.S officials, from President Obama to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to Ambassador Tim Roemer in New Delhi, had sent out the similar messages. The Americans were also keen on the deal as an export factor which would help job creation at home.

But New Delhi, suddenly in thrall of strengthening ties with BRICS and the European Union, remained cool to U.S entreaties even as the warmth of the Obama visit appears to have faded quickly. Evidently, the MRCA decision, as Tellis told ToI in an email, was largely made on technical metrics at the expense of strategic considerations.


"The IAF, which is a fighter force, chose a fighter pilot's fighter: airplanes that are hot rods," Tellis explained, adding what this leaves India with now is a choice between two "incredibly expensive" fourth-generation jets ($85million + for the Rafale and the $125million+ for the Eurofighter by his estimates). If India goes with the former, it will end up literally bailing out Dassault which has not sold a single Rafale abroad yet, he added.

Expectedly, proponents of the use of the MRCA decision as a strategic choice are pillorying New Delhi's call. "The UPA government's decision to reject both American proposals, of the F-16 and F/A-18, demonstrates either a poor appreciation of the geostrategic aspect or worse, indicative of a lingering anti-American mindset," said Nitin Pai, a Fellow at the Takshashila Foundation. "This move will most certainly reduce India's geopolitical leverage with the US military-industrial complex, at a time when India needs it most."

Pai, who also edits the journal Pragati, the Indian National Interest Review, maintained that India was being "gratuitously generous" to Europe, where Italy had blocked India's UNSC candidature and other smaller countries had tried to wreck the U.S-India nuclear deal. "Not buying fighter aircraft from a US supplier is strategic stupidity of enormous proportions," he added, while mockingly asking whether "Europeans will use their non-declining global superpower in support of India in AfPak, East Asia, UNSC etc."

For their part, the arms companies have played it cool, aware that there is yet more than $ 100 billion at stake as India modernizes its military. Boeing, whose F-18 Super Hornet lost out in the MRCA deal, still has its heavy lift helicopters Apache and Chinook in play in a separate deal, having already won contracts for heavy lift transport planes. "We are obviously disappointed with this outcome. We believe we offered the Indian Air Force a fully compliant and best-value multi-role aircraft for the defined mission," the company said in a statement, adding, "We will continue to look for opportunities to help India modernize its armed services and enhance its aerospace industry."

Tellis too suggested both sides should look forward without rancor. "Whatever India goes with, I hope the commercial negotiations are concluded quickly and that the chosen fighter enters the force soon - IAF force structure will simply dissolve without the MRCA and the LCA," he warned.

The larger question though is whether the MRCA set-back to Washington will affect the broader U.S-India relations, which have been frequently bedevilled by trade spats and strategic misperceptions. Already, Washington is fuming about New Delhi not keeping its end of the nuclear deal bargain. The annual strategic dialogue between the two sides scheduled for April had to be deferred ostensibly because of regional elections in India, but some analysts have suggested that it was because of the nuke deal screw-up and the impending MRCA rebuff. The sudden resignation of U.S ambassador to India Timothy Roemer, coming within hours of the MRCA decision being made public, is also seen as a setback although Tellis believes it is not linked to the MRCA call.

Amid all this, the regional environment is getting increasingly complex with a toxic Pakistan upping the ante with Washington and demanding India's downsizing in Afghanistan as price for its cooperation. U.S Under Secretary of State Marc Grossman headed out to New Delhi last night on the first leg of his trip to the region where more than Af-Pak is at stake.



http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...nal-US-India-distance/articleshow/8109993.cms
 

Parthy

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India Picks Europeans, Spurns US For MMRCA

India has rejected U.S. firms for an $11 billion fighter jet contract, shortlisting European companies instead, in a move that could sour its relationship with the United States while broadening its strategic ties with other regions.

The rejection comes despite lobbying from President Barack Obama during a high-profile visit to India five months ago, and coincides with the unexpected resignation of the U.S. ambassador to India, who cited "personal, professional, and family considerations" in a statement on Thursday.

The U.S. embassy in India declined to comment if Timothy Roemer's resignation was linked to the jet decision, with a spokeswoman referring queries to a statement on their website.

Roemer said in a separate statement on India's decision: "We are "¦ deeply disappointed by this news. We look forward to continuing to grow and develop our defense partnership with India."

Lockheed Martin's F-16 and Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet did not meet the Indian Air Force's technical requirements, a defense ministry source told Reuters.

"The Americans will be very unhappy and people who have been backing the contract will say India has not sufficiently taken into account the political relationship with the U.S.," said Kanwal Sibal, a former Indian foreign secretary.

"That is a political setback for relations."

Relations between the two democracies have been on the rise after the end of the Cold War, when India was seen as closer to the Soviet Union.

The two nations signed a landmark civil nuclear cooperation deal in 2007 and Obama last year promised to back India's bid for a permanent place on the U.N. Security Council during a visit with more than 200 business executives.

In his three-day trip—the longest stay in any foreign country by Obama—the U.S. leader also announced $10 billion in business deals.

But suspicions remain. India has worked to broaden the base of its diplomatic relationships, working along with China, Russia and other emerging powers to avoid being perceived as part of the U.S. camp.

India has also been unwilling to commit to greater defense ties, including joint military exercises and patrols.

Obama, meanwhile, has been walking a diplomatic tightrope, on the one hand trying to boost diplomatic and business ties with India while on the other ensuring relations with Pakistan and China, nations often at loggerheads with India, stay stable.

India also ruled out Sweden's Saab JAS-39 and Russia's MiG-35, departing from a long-running tradition of relying mainly on Russian aircraft for its Air Force.

EUROPEAN SHOWDOWN

Eurofighter, which makes the Typhoon fighter jet shortlisted for the order, is a four-nation consortium of EADS, representing Germany and Spain, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica. Dassault makes the Rafale.

The contest now sets up a showdown between two multi-role European fighters now actively deployed in policing the no-fly zone over Libya, both hungry for export sales to compensate for defense spending cuts at home.

The order has been keenly contested by global defense firms and has seen lobbying from leaders like Britain's David Cameron, France's Nicholas Sarkozy and Russia's Dmitry Medvedev.

"To the extent that it has come down to the Rafale or Typhoon, the Europeans have, in a sense, won. India is balancing its international relationships," said Howard Wheeldon, senior strategist at BGC Partners in London.

Boeing said it was disappointed with the decision and would seek a "debrief" from the Indian Air Force before considering its options.


http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene... Picks Europeans, Spurns US For MMRCA&next=10
 

Rahul Singh

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Do you really think GoI appreciates US arming its most hated enemy for free? Are Taliban piloting F-22s and battleships now? You think they forgot US sanctions? India rewards nations that go out of their way to recognise India's concerns. Both France and Germany have denied sale of weapons to Pakistan, avionics/missiles and submarines. You guys are fooling yourselves if you think US will fight to protect India... remember what Nixon said to China.... attack India. You say, well GoI has already bought billions from US. Answer, only out of need because Russia can't get them made. C-17s and P-8Is were ordered because IL-76 and IL-38 production lines are shut down and India can't wait for Russia to get their act together. It is not out of love for the US.
You answered entirely opposite to what i had said. By strategical importance i meant *Strategical importance for US. It is not hidden that US wanted/wants to control and influence India's foreign policy by selling weapons to Indian forces. And by influencing foreign polity i mean a customized foreign policy designed to counter Chinese design for American good.

And nobody here is fooling himself, we are very much aware of American ideals, beliefs and designs. Having said that, good relation with America was and is strategically important to us and we will continue to play with them on equal terms, if not ours.
 

Rahul Singh

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when US allowed the Pak-China nuclear deal to go thru, I think that was the last straw?? US proved their influence has diminished or they do not view India in any "strategic" sense??
Obama is not long for anything and you know better than me. He has screwed everything altogether and is only spending his due time in white house. Let a republican president overthrow him in a couple of year and you will see the change. We buy their jets or we don't, doesn't matter as long as Chinese rivalry with US continues ( it will for sure) India's strategical importance against China for US good will remain intact.
 
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Obama is not long for anything and you know better than me. He has screwed everything altogether and is only spending his due time in white house. Let a republican president overthrow him in couple of year and you will see the change.

yes but the damage is done, relations are not what they were during the cold war but they could have been a much different level if Obama had any clues about foreign policy.
 
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Boeing has already received 11 billion dollars in orders before MRCA (total 18 billion +)

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/afx/2006/01/11/afx2444140.html

Air India signs deal for 68 Boeing aircraft
MUMBAI (AFX) - State-run Air India has signed a formal agreement to buy 68 Boeing airliners with a list price of 11 bln usd.

'The aircraft, valued at more than 11 bln usd at list price, are scheduled for delivery beginning November this year,' Air India chief V Thulasidas told reporters after the signing.

The delivery will be completed over the next 10 years, he said.

'Air India's order consists of 23 777s, 27 787-8 Dreamliners and 18 next-generation 737-800s,' Thulasidas said.

The deal, which was given final approval by the government in December, was signed by Thulasidas and Boeing Commercial Airplanes president Alan Mulally.

Civil Aviation Minister Praful Patel said the US aircraft maker had agreed to spend nearly two bln usd on reciprocal deals.

'Boeing has a counter-trade... amounting to (1.9 bln usd) over the next 10 years, which would mean that Boeing will buy from India a range of goods and services,' Patel said.

The aircraft maker will also spend 75 mln usd on training pilots and another 100 mln in maintenance and repairs to the aircraft, he said.

'This is the time for Air India to regain its leadership in Indian aviation. We are extremely bullish for the sector and expect a compounded year-to-year growth of 25 pct over the next ten years for the Indian aviation sector,' Patel added.

Mulally said there would be a small price discount for Air India but declined to give details.

The number of air travellers in India rose by 26.5 pct in the six months to March 2005 with 18.52 mln people boarding flights.

The number of passengers is expected to hit 50 mln a year in the next five years as a range of new private airlines enter the market.
 
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