Anshu Attri
Senior Member
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2009
- Messages
- 1,218
- Likes
- 679
Last edited by a moderator:
India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist
- Thread starter Pandora
- Start date
- Status
Patriot
Senior Member
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2010
- Messages
- 1,761
- Likes
- 544
U.S. disappointed over IAF deal, but respects process
With its fighters losing out in the bid for India's multi-billion dollar deal, the U.S. on Thursday said it was "deeply disappointed" over it but was "respectful" of the procurement process.
In a statement in New Delhi, Ambassador Timothy Roemer said he had been assured at the highest levels in the Indian government that the procurement process for the fighters "has been and will be transparent and fair".
He said the U.S. looked forward to continuing to grow and develop defence partnership with India.
"The U.S. Embassy in New Delhi was informed yesterday that two aircraft offered by the U.S. Government through the Foreign Military Sales process were not selected for procurement by the Indian Ministry of Defence," the statement said.
"We are reviewing the documents received from the Government of India and are respectful of the procurement process. We are, however, deeply disappointed by this news," Mr. Roemer said.
He was commenting on the rejection of Boeing's F-18 and Lockheed-Martin's F-16 fighters by India in the bid for multi-billion dollar Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal in which Eurofighter and French plane Rafale have been short-listed.
Mr. Roemer said he was "extremely confident" that the Boeing F-18IN and Lockheed-Martin F-16IN would provide the Indian Air Force an "unbeatable platform with proven technologies at a competitive price."
He said he had been personally assured at the highest levels of the Indian government that the "procurement process for this aircraft has been and will be transparent and fair."
Remaining convinced that the U.S. offers its defence partners around the globe the world's most advanced and reliable technology, the envoy said, "We look forward to continuing to grow and develop our defence partnership with India."
With its fighters losing out in the bid for India's multi-billion dollar deal, the U.S. on Thursday said it was "deeply disappointed" over it but was "respectful" of the procurement process.
In a statement in New Delhi, Ambassador Timothy Roemer said he had been assured at the highest levels in the Indian government that the procurement process for the fighters "has been and will be transparent and fair".
He said the U.S. looked forward to continuing to grow and develop defence partnership with India.
"The U.S. Embassy in New Delhi was informed yesterday that two aircraft offered by the U.S. Government through the Foreign Military Sales process were not selected for procurement by the Indian Ministry of Defence," the statement said.
"We are reviewing the documents received from the Government of India and are respectful of the procurement process. We are, however, deeply disappointed by this news," Mr. Roemer said.
He was commenting on the rejection of Boeing's F-18 and Lockheed-Martin's F-16 fighters by India in the bid for multi-billion dollar Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal in which Eurofighter and French plane Rafale have been short-listed.
Mr. Roemer said he was "extremely confident" that the Boeing F-18IN and Lockheed-Martin F-16IN would provide the Indian Air Force an "unbeatable platform with proven technologies at a competitive price."
He said he had been personally assured at the highest levels of the Indian government that the "procurement process for this aircraft has been and will be transparent and fair."
Remaining convinced that the U.S. offers its defence partners around the globe the world's most advanced and reliable technology, the envoy said, "We look forward to continuing to grow and develop our defence partnership with India."
Patriot
Senior Member
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2010
- Messages
- 1,761
- Likes
- 544
A.K.Antony gains sainthood
Whether the sudden exit of US Ambassador Timothy Roemer from his assignment in Delhi and the government''s decision to reject the two American bids for the MMRCA [Multi-role combat aircraft] tender are related developments is a moot point.
Indeed, MMRCA was a lucrative contract which is worth 10 billion dollars at face value but worth manifold billions of dollars in the downstream through the coming 2 or 3 decades by way of additional supplies, spare parts, servicing, etc. More than the money, the Obama administration pitched hard as the business could generate dozens of thousands of jobs in the US. In strategic terms, MMRCA relates to the weapon system that IAF will use for next few decades and constituted a window of opportunity to gain a veritable American toe-hold in the Indian armed forces. Unsurprisingly, US saw this contract as a great window of opening to surge the military cooperation with India. Thus, a robust US campaign was afoot and Obama himself pitched in by writing to the prime minister. Senior state department officials routinely began singing panygerics - almost on weekly basis - lavishing praise on India as the rising star on the planet and as the cynosure of all good things to happen to mankind. Roemer himself openly reminded the Indian leadership last month that securing the MMRCA would do a world of good to US-India global strategic partnership (read containment of China).
Frankly, the Americans themselves are to be blamed for building up this sort of completely unwarranted hype, which makes on feel red on the face with embarrassment. MMRCA is a bloody serious affair for the Indians and the IAF and Delhi cannot go emotional about it when arriving at a decicision. But then, it is a characteristic feature of US (and Israeli) public diplomacy to keep puffing up hot air balloons and foisting then above the playground and make the spectators feel they are the real thing. Whereas, any close observer of the Indian policies - unless one were hopelessly marooned at the extreme wing of the ideological left or the ideologically vacuous Indian right - that at the end of the day, Delhi would assess its needs with clinical detachment.
Things can't be otherwise so long as A K Antony holds the portfolio of Raksha Mantri. No matter what you may say about the 'Mallu mafia' in Delhi, at the end of the day, you need to admit this much that their finger nails have remained clean after all their dealings with public property. And, mind you, these are testy times when you trust just about no one in the dark. To put MMRCA matters in perspective, Antony's refusal to be entrapped into making political commitments that he couldn't possibly fulfil prompted him to have the US-India strategic dialogue scheduled originally for mid-April to be scuttled although Hillary Clinton and Robert Gates were all set to travel to Delhi. We all knew at that time that something was brewing in Antony's mind although he is a taciturn man by nature. In fact, that was the first indication that Antony's mind was working hard about judging which MMRCA offer - American, European, French, Russian, etc. - might suit India's defence needs optimally in the long-term, and the choice might just not necessarily fall on the two high-profile American bids out of mere political compulsions.
Equally, some nasty comments by a clutch of notoriously pro-American Delhi-based commentators at around that same time gave the plot away and made one suspect that the US embassy in Delhi might be working overtime about Antony's 'obduracy'. Nonetheless, the proof lay in the eating of the pudding, as they say, and one kept one's fingers crossed.
Objectively speaking, however, the Americans have been vastly exaggerating the dimensions of the so-called US-India 'golabl' strategic partnership - US's 'indispensable' partnership of the 21st century, et al - in an attempt to hustle the Indian opinion, which is usually ill-informed, excitable and highly prone to sentimentality and moodiness. This has been a classic situation where the other guy insists on saying to whoever is listening that you are his best pal in town and this is the only game in town and you are hard-pressed to deny that is not quite the case as is being made out and that he is only one among other guys you'd like to along with in real life.
The danger lies in upping the threshold of hype in any relationship. When a reality check ensues, you slide into depression. Last week, a former Indian ambassador to the US claimed that it would be a 'breach of faith' if India didn't facilitate nuclear business for the US. Really? He spoke as if he never heard of Fukoshima. What if Antony came to a sober conclusion that IAF needs something far better than what is on offer from the Americans? Will that, too, become a matter of 'breach of faith'? Whose 'faith' are we talking about anyway? The country's - or some moonlighting individual's? The problem is that too many vested interests have today developed over the gravy train of US-India partnership. And these fat cats are contributing to an unnatural build-up of expectations and are arrogating the right to set the tempo of the US-India ties that are so crucial to the country's long-term interests.
The Indian policies in the recent months ample bear out that US-India partnership is not the be-all and end-all of Delhi's world view. The patient efforts to build content into ties with Iran (which is never an easy thing to deal with), the nuanced stance on Libya, the constructive engagement of China's Hu Jintao by the prime minister on the sidelines of the BRICS, the far-reaching India-Kazakh strategic ties, the commendable Mohali overture to Pakistan, Delhi's stubborn refusal to be drawn into the US-Pakistan tensions or to fall into the American trap of transfroming Afghanistan into an India-Pakistan turf war, an independent line on Sri Lanka keeping the specific Indian priorities in view - all these are to be noted carefully. Why, can't Washington but notice that Delhi is not even doing any drum beating that an American-Tibetan is bringing the torch of democracy to Dharamsala from across the Atlantic!
Whether the sudden exit of US Ambassador Timothy Roemer from his assignment in Delhi and the government''s decision to reject the two American bids for the MMRCA [Multi-role combat aircraft] tender are related developments is a moot point.
Indeed, MMRCA was a lucrative contract which is worth 10 billion dollars at face value but worth manifold billions of dollars in the downstream through the coming 2 or 3 decades by way of additional supplies, spare parts, servicing, etc. More than the money, the Obama administration pitched hard as the business could generate dozens of thousands of jobs in the US. In strategic terms, MMRCA relates to the weapon system that IAF will use for next few decades and constituted a window of opportunity to gain a veritable American toe-hold in the Indian armed forces. Unsurprisingly, US saw this contract as a great window of opening to surge the military cooperation with India. Thus, a robust US campaign was afoot and Obama himself pitched in by writing to the prime minister. Senior state department officials routinely began singing panygerics - almost on weekly basis - lavishing praise on India as the rising star on the planet and as the cynosure of all good things to happen to mankind. Roemer himself openly reminded the Indian leadership last month that securing the MMRCA would do a world of good to US-India global strategic partnership (read containment of China).
Frankly, the Americans themselves are to be blamed for building up this sort of completely unwarranted hype, which makes on feel red on the face with embarrassment. MMRCA is a bloody serious affair for the Indians and the IAF and Delhi cannot go emotional about it when arriving at a decicision. But then, it is a characteristic feature of US (and Israeli) public diplomacy to keep puffing up hot air balloons and foisting then above the playground and make the spectators feel they are the real thing. Whereas, any close observer of the Indian policies - unless one were hopelessly marooned at the extreme wing of the ideological left or the ideologically vacuous Indian right - that at the end of the day, Delhi would assess its needs with clinical detachment.
Things can't be otherwise so long as A K Antony holds the portfolio of Raksha Mantri. No matter what you may say about the 'Mallu mafia' in Delhi, at the end of the day, you need to admit this much that their finger nails have remained clean after all their dealings with public property. And, mind you, these are testy times when you trust just about no one in the dark. To put MMRCA matters in perspective, Antony's refusal to be entrapped into making political commitments that he couldn't possibly fulfil prompted him to have the US-India strategic dialogue scheduled originally for mid-April to be scuttled although Hillary Clinton and Robert Gates were all set to travel to Delhi. We all knew at that time that something was brewing in Antony's mind although he is a taciturn man by nature. In fact, that was the first indication that Antony's mind was working hard about judging which MMRCA offer - American, European, French, Russian, etc. - might suit India's defence needs optimally in the long-term, and the choice might just not necessarily fall on the two high-profile American bids out of mere political compulsions.
Equally, some nasty comments by a clutch of notoriously pro-American Delhi-based commentators at around that same time gave the plot away and made one suspect that the US embassy in Delhi might be working overtime about Antony's 'obduracy'. Nonetheless, the proof lay in the eating of the pudding, as they say, and one kept one's fingers crossed.
Objectively speaking, however, the Americans have been vastly exaggerating the dimensions of the so-called US-India 'golabl' strategic partnership - US's 'indispensable' partnership of the 21st century, et al - in an attempt to hustle the Indian opinion, which is usually ill-informed, excitable and highly prone to sentimentality and moodiness. This has been a classic situation where the other guy insists on saying to whoever is listening that you are his best pal in town and this is the only game in town and you are hard-pressed to deny that is not quite the case as is being made out and that he is only one among other guys you'd like to along with in real life.
The danger lies in upping the threshold of hype in any relationship. When a reality check ensues, you slide into depression. Last week, a former Indian ambassador to the US claimed that it would be a 'breach of faith' if India didn't facilitate nuclear business for the US. Really? He spoke as if he never heard of Fukoshima. What if Antony came to a sober conclusion that IAF needs something far better than what is on offer from the Americans? Will that, too, become a matter of 'breach of faith'? Whose 'faith' are we talking about anyway? The country's - or some moonlighting individual's? The problem is that too many vested interests have today developed over the gravy train of US-India partnership. And these fat cats are contributing to an unnatural build-up of expectations and are arrogating the right to set the tempo of the US-India ties that are so crucial to the country's long-term interests.
The Indian policies in the recent months ample bear out that US-India partnership is not the be-all and end-all of Delhi's world view. The patient efforts to build content into ties with Iran (which is never an easy thing to deal with), the nuanced stance on Libya, the constructive engagement of China's Hu Jintao by the prime minister on the sidelines of the BRICS, the far-reaching India-Kazakh strategic ties, the commendable Mohali overture to Pakistan, Delhi's stubborn refusal to be drawn into the US-Pakistan tensions or to fall into the American trap of transfroming Afghanistan into an India-Pakistan turf war, an independent line on Sri Lanka keeping the specific Indian priorities in view - all these are to be noted carefully. Why, can't Washington but notice that Delhi is not even doing any drum beating that an American-Tibetan is bringing the torch of democracy to Dharamsala from across the Atlantic!
LETHALFORCE
Mod
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2009
- Messages
- 29,876
- Likes
- 48,557
SH probably had a good chance, F-16 none. I think a push for CISMOA/LSA and other things which would have given USA too much leverage in India's security and limit independence blew the deal.
SHASH2K2
New Member
- Joined
- May 10, 2010
- Messages
- 5,711
- Likes
- 730
completely agree . More than planes its strings attached with planes that swung deal in favour or EFT and Rafale .
LETHALFORCE
Mod
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2009
- Messages
- 29,876
- Likes
- 48,557
I still say Rafele will win for one simple reason Saudis are buying Eurofigher and Pak gives them pilots so they would get to know EF. Rafele will remain a completely unknown platform to Pak and China. We also know much more about all the MRCA planes too know like F-16's.
Patriot
Senior Member
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2010
- Messages
- 1,761
- Likes
- 544
We can expect early decision on final winner!!
EADS, Dassault asked to extend combat jet bids till December
EADS, Dassault asked to extend combat jet bids till December
LETHALFORCE
Mod
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2009
- Messages
- 29,876
- Likes
- 48,557
Meteor will supposedly start production for the French in 2013, I hope this does not mean more delays????
mayfair
Senior Member
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2010
- Messages
- 6,032
- Likes
- 13,109
But then UAE and Qatar had Mirages and Pak pilots, did not stop us from trying to go for more of them. UAE and Dassault have been in negotiations over Rafale as well. Sooner than later, Pak pilots will get a feel of those jets as well. They have had some exposure to Mig29s courtesy friendly AFs and Bangladesh, Flankers courtesy China and possibly Malaysia in the future. The only plane they are unlikely to get their hands on will be FGFA.
Having a few pilots who are familiar with a weapons system is quite different from being in tune with each nut and bolt a la PAF and the vipers. I suspect there'll be plenty other reasons that'll determine which way the deal swings.
LETHALFORCE
Mod
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2009
- Messages
- 29,876
- Likes
- 48,557
Excellent points Mayfair. The flankers we have are much different from Chinese and Malaysian flankers. In future Russia has plans to export Pak-fa so this may also get accessability??
Patriot
Senior Member
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2010
- Messages
- 1,761
- Likes
- 544
Boeing's Statement On F/A-18 Elimination From MMRCA
"Boeing today was notified that our Super Hornet proposal for India's MMRCA competition was not short listed in the initial down select. We are obviously disappointed with this outcome. Our next step is to request and receive a debrief from the Indian Air Force. Once we have reviewed the details, we will make a decision concerning our possible options, always keeping in mind the impact to the Indian Air Force. We believe we offered the Indian Air Force a fully compliant and best-value multi-role aircraft for the defined mission. We will continue to look for opportunities to help India modernize its armed services and enhance its aerospace industry. "
"Boeing today was notified that our Super Hornet proposal for India's MMRCA competition was not short listed in the initial down select. We are obviously disappointed with this outcome. Our next step is to request and receive a debrief from the Indian Air Force. Once we have reviewed the details, we will make a decision concerning our possible options, always keeping in mind the impact to the Indian Air Force. We believe we offered the Indian Air Force a fully compliant and best-value multi-role aircraft for the defined mission. We will continue to look for opportunities to help India modernize its armed services and enhance its aerospace industry. "
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2009
- Messages
- 24,324
- Likes
- 11,757
A lot of political maneuvering would have started already. The statement is clear about the US fighters not qualifying technically according to the demands of the IAF. I don't think the reason can be the CISMOA or other agreements in fact the US would have then worked a way around those laws. Interesting few days ahead as the whole thing unravels.
Rahul Singh
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2009
- Messages
- 3,652
- Likes
- 5,790
Never been too enthusiastic about which jet makes to final(as none in race will be a game changer by time they will be operational) but always had apprehension about its impact on LCA's engine. Now since both American jets are out of race and F-414 is the engine of choice, i am fearing the worst. Americans especially Boeing is not letting it slip away so easily, for them this fight has just begun, not over. How can we forget KC-X saga!
venkat
Regular Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2009
- Messages
- 907
- Likes
- 203
The deals are so big for US with promises made by Obama to his countrymen about generating employment,business and revenues, i don't think US will rest in peace and will try to arm twist both India and the other EF/Rafel manufacturing EU countries. US put bars on IAI from selling EL/M 2052 ELTA AESA Radar to india,which can be fitted on all most all fixed wing platforms, as per news that appeared in the press.
Rahul Singh
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2009
- Messages
- 3,652
- Likes
- 5,790
Since both jets at present are more or less same, one question that remains interesting is, who will be lowest bidder? Going by the general thumb rule i bet for Eurofighter, this jet as of today has 4x order than Rafale and beats Rafale 100- to 000 in foreign sale. It will be interesting to see how low ridiculously costly France can go?
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2009
- Messages
- 24,324
- Likes
- 11,757
Life cycle cost is what's going to matter and not just fly away cost. Never know what india will squeeze out from the two contenders. India may well throw in the threat of bringing back the US fighter if the two don't play ball. Anything is possible as the money in play is so high.
- Status
