India Rejects BMP-3 Offer

[Twinblade]

Regarding the topic, Afaik ( Was following the development closely back then ) that Abhay project was killed for unknown reason, Just like many Indigenous projects latter accured faulty imported stuff and higher price involving mammoth scams and high figures ..

Abhay was not even put for tests, Abhay was design as per GSQR ..

Abhay was not "killed". It was meant as a technology demonstrator for FICV. Several simulation and design technologies, apart from the technologies that would go in FICV were tried and tested in Abhay project.

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2010/oct10.pdf

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Let me clear this, When this program started there was no term as FICV, But directly said the vehicle is a replacement for BMP vehicles, The Project was stopped abrupt with no news coming out of DRDO and then at the same time Russian offered BMP-2 upgrade at defexpo..

FICV is new term, Wasent existed during or before the program, You can dig deeper if you like, you will find what i am telling here ..

Abhay was not "killed". It was meant as a technology demonstrator for FICV. Several simulation and design technologies, apart from the technologies that would go in FICV were tried and tested in Abhay project.

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2010/oct10.pdf

 

[Kunal Biswas]

double post ..

 

[ALBY]

Let me clear this, When this program started there was no term as FICV, But directly said the vehicle is a replacement for BMP vehicles, The Project was stopped abrupt with no news coming out of DRDO and then at the same time Russian offered BMP-2 upgrade at defexpo..

FICV is new term, Wasent existed during or before the program, You can dig deeper if you like, you will find what i am telling here ..

Man ,M2 bradleys which have fire power ,good armour and could carry 6 persons a suitable replacement for the BMPIIs?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Bradleys for India is not a good choice, Let me explain in brief for all ..

=================

Troop carrying importance :

Mech inf in early days consist of trucks, 30men in one truck when OT-62/64 arrived the number went to just 15-10 people and then again when BMP-1 start arriving the number again shrink to just 7 people and introduction of BMP-2 that number 7 got one more total 8 people ..

Fire Power:

In early days troops carry the firepower when mounted over trucks includes MMG, Latter introduction of OT-62/64 which came with there own HMG forces troops to not carry MMG with it, Latter BMP-1 which came with its 73mm cannon forced troops to minus 84mm RCL, Unfortunately 73mm beyond 800ms was ineffective but not Carl Gustaf, With introduction of BMP-2 troops retain RCL capability ..

PS : During 1962 and 1971 war we felt no need for massive firepower on APC /IFV as there were amphibious Light tanks call PT-76, Now Our APC are not protected by light tanks, So mass firepower is needed to supress enemy fortifications, 30mm auto cannon are not upto the job ..

Conclusion >> For Indian needs there is an APC / IFV needed which can carry 8 or more than 8 trooper ( In my personal view should be 20 ) with bigger gun like 40mm L70 or 60mm or BMP-3`s 100mm and 30mm combo ..

Man ,M2 bradleys which have fire power ,good armour and could carry 6 persons a suitable replacement for the BMPIIs?

 

[JBH22]

Given current budget levels any attempt to increase mechanised infantry troops would entail reduction in troop levels.

 

[Ray]

Amphibious is definitely the requirement but again it should be compact like BMP-2 but with more space for troops inside and should carry equal or more troops, And again it should have more fire-power, New FICV shows such details so does Abhay APC in past ..

@Ray Sir have commanded squadron of BMP-2, We may get more details from Sir`s experience operating and commanding these vehicles and the obstical they usually counter and what further improvements can be done to it ..

No, I have not had Mech Inf under my comd.

 

[Damian]

For Indian needs there is an APC / IFV needed which can carry 8 or more than 8 trooper ( In my personal view should be 20 ) with bigger gun like 40mm L70 or 60mm or BMP-3`s 100mm and 30mm combo ..

Please explain me, how you want to design APC/IFV which is capable to transport 20 soldiers, yest still offer good protection within reasonable weight and size limits? It is just immposible. Or you take less troops, or you have less armor, because combining both means very heavy vehicle.

And if you really want 20 men in transport compartment, just purchase AAVP-7A1 from USA.

Yet still remember, that cost for high capacity troop compartment and amphibious capabilities, AAVP-7A1 pays with low armor protection and overall low survivability. This is why it is intended to be replaced by ACV (and later EFV) which will be better protected, yet more compact with smaller crew compartment.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There are two options >>

1. Either you ended up designing a large APC with Heavy Armour, losing amphibious capability but ability to snorkel ..
2. Or you ended up with a large APC with light Armour and retain amphibious capability ..

Or the third option >>

A vehicle large to carry more troops, With an Heavy RCWS, The Armour protection focuses mainly on chassis, Though it will be heaver than BMP ..

=======================
=======================

The main objective is to retain troop carrying capacity as it once used to be, After all its Mech Inf ..

Please explain me, how you want to design APC/IFV which is capable to transport 20 soldiers, yest still offer good protection within reasonable weight and size limits? It is just immposible. Or you take less troops, or you have less armor, because combining both means very heavy vehicle.

And if you really want 20 men in transport compartment, just purchase AAVP-7A1 from USA.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

My bad, Sir ..

Must got messed up with other`s posts ..

No, I have not had Mech Inf under my comd.

 

[Damian]

There are two options >>

1. Either you ended up designing a large APC with Heavy Armour, losing amphibious capability but ability to snorkel ..
2. Or you ended up with a large APC with light Armour and retain amphibious capability ..

Or the third option >>

A vehicle large to carry more troops, With an Heavy RCWS, The Armour protection focuses mainly on chassis, Though it will be heaver than BMP ..

=======================
=======================

The main objective is to retain troop carrying capacity as it once used to be, After all its Mech Inf ..

Sorry Kunal, designing AFV's is not easy task, some compromises must be done, otherwise it is just wishfull thinking.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I am not a designer and certainly not claiming either, Just making a view ..

With time, the concept of Mech Inf have become more machine than man ..

But ' Man ' element is more important then machine ..

Sorry Kunal, designing AFV's is not easy task, some compromises must be done, otherwise it is just wishfull thinking.

 

[Twinblade]

Let me clear this, When this program started there was no term as FICV, But directly said the vehicle is a replacement for BMP vehicles, The Project was stopped abrupt with no news coming out of DRDO and then at the same time Russian offered BMP-2 upgrade at defexpo..

FICV is new term, Wasent existed during or before the program, You can dig deeper if you like, you will find what i am telling here ..

All the proposals would, in the end, be derivatives of Abhay IFV tech demonstrator. Abhay might have been a BMP replacement project to begin with, but it has certainly evolved into a TD for FICV. In the FICV project the government and private industry will invest in the ratio of 80:20. The private players are free to partner with whoever they want. All the technologies required for the FICV are in place due to the Ahay tech demonstrator. Many of these technologies were derivatives of other projects and many of them developed with partnership of private players, but the important thing is that any company, if it chooses, can make an IFV with the technology available in the country. Three out of four participants are now in without a foreign partner and the fourth one might be headed that way. The technology base and knowhow developed with Abhay IFV are:-

- Lightweight hull designing and construction
- Composite armour
- Light ERA
- NBC protection
- Fire suppression
- 550 hp Power pack by Greaves Cotton
- Hydro pneumatic suspension
- Track system
- Navigation and vehicle health monitoring systems
- Turrets
- Electronics

Due to indigenous content conditions which will restrict the imported content, majority of these systems would end up being incorporated in whatever designs are being proposed, or in the case of OFB, they are not going to go much further than what Abhay project has achieved. Abhay is going to be the benchmark for FICV project. The model of development will be similar to Namica, where BEL and L&T both compete with their individual systems designed around an existing set of technologies.

It is possible that the MoD might reissue the EoI considering that they have not yet made up their minds on how to evaluate the proposals. Till that happens, there are four proposals in the running:-

1. Tata-Rheinmetall (Rheinmetall facing blacklist)
2. Mahindra-BAE (now only Mahindra)
3. L&T-Ashok Leyland
4. Ordnance Factories Board.

If Rheinmetall gets blacklisted, Tata would be forced to buy it's share and it will become an all Indian race. Two competing proposals would be selected and the winning design would be manufactured by both in the ratio of 70:30.

 

[Dima Ismakov]

y just dont ask israel for help?
we have the best APC in the world "namer apc"
he can carry 3+12 trops
has the best armor the the merkava IV has to offer(era)
has the best in the world Iron Fist active protection system,or trophy.
has Mk 19 grenade launcher mounted on a Samson Remote Controlled Weapon Station,i think india can put a bigger calibre if needed
can do 500 KM range
has a option to put two spike anti tank missile
and the only apc that proven in battle,we use it daily against RPG,IED

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namer

 

[SajeevJino]

y just dont ask israel for help?

Thanks

we have the best APC in the world "namer apc"

he can carry 3+12 trops
has the best armor the the merkava IV has to offer(era)
has the best in the world Iron Fist active protection system,or trophy.
has Mk 19 grenade launcher mounted on a Samson Remote Controlled Weapon Station,i think india can put a bigger calibre if needed
can do 500 KM range
and the only apc that proven in battle,we use it daily against RPG,IED

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namer

Namer is an APC to carry Infantry into deep zone and able to fight against Terrorists and other Tribal Violences ..Where we need an IFV to fight and Supprit our Troops inside the battlefield even It's need to Challenge any Modern MBT's too .as well as Air drop and Amphibious capability

 

[Damian]

we have the best APC in the world "namer apc"

I would be far for calling it the best, it is good indeed, but it is immposible to have or be the best.

he can carry 3+12 trops

No, Namer can carry 3 crew members and 9 dismounts, which means 12 men total.

has the best armor the the merkava IV has to offer(era)

Merkava Mk4 uses NERA type composite armor, so does probably Namer, so no, not ERA type.

has the best in the world Iron Fist active protection system,or trophy.

There are better and more promising active protection systems developed around the world.

and the only apc that proven in battle,we use it daily against RPG,IED

Aha, yeah, right, "the only APC proven in battle".

has Mk 19 grenade launcher mounted on a Samson Remote Controlled Weapon Station,i think india can put a bigger calibre if needed

Normally Namer is armed with one 7,62mm machine gun on pintle mount for commander, and a single RWS with 12,7mm machine gun or 40mm automatic granade launcher. Indeed, Namer can be retrofitted with unmanned turret system with 30mm automatic cannon, 7,62mm machine gun and ATGM's launcher, but then it is no longer classified as APC but as IFV.

There was even a single Namer tested in such configuration.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

finally a sensible thing done by the govermnment.Now the army is looking for an apc/ifv in the weight range of about 20-25 tons.Era would be a bad option since their will be dismounted soldiers operating in close proximity to icv-NERA would be ideal.Again if the requirement is for a heavy apc in the weight range of 40-50 tons the army should go for arjun variant with turret removed by rcws which will be suitable in a very high intensity urban environment where rpg's,and ieds are a major threat.