India-Pakistan parity An embarrassing obsession

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by M.Riaz, Apr 18, 2010.

  1. M.Riaz

    M.Riaz Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2010
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Ukraine
    Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s plea in Washington for “zero tolerance” for nuclear delinquents had Pakistan in its crosshairs. The cliché of zero tolerance is of course best applied to traffic rules. Its excessive emphasis for serious problems could convey the impression that all other issues have been settled, i.e. zero tolerance for terrorism, communalism, corruption, poverty, internal rebellions and so on.

    To use a cricketing idiom the Indian prime minister’s appeal against Pakistan’s nuclear waywardness can be seen as a wicket-keeper’s ploy to distract the umpire from calling a wide ball. Nobody believes India’s nuclear weapons are not ill-gotten, or that under the terms of the NPT they are any more legal than Pakistan’s or Iran’s if it acquires them.
    Kolkata’s Telegraph newspaper ran a Ghalib-like assessment of India’s habit of venting its spleen about its difficult neighbour to all and sundry. In a dispatch from Washington, where the nuclear summit was the main agenda, the newspaper’s correspondent counted at least 30 direct or indirect references to Pakistan by India’s foreign secretary Nirupama Rao in a briefing which should have been about global proliferation.

    This was of course not Ms Rao’s fault. As India’s spokesperson at the Agra summit in July 2001 she faithfully followed a totally different tack on Pakistan only because then foreign minister Jaswant Singh was keen to walk the “high road to peace” with the neighbour. It was in response to the Indian media’s 13 questions in Washington, all related to Pakistan instead of nuclear worries, that the 30 references to Islamabad became perhaps inevitable.

    The Pakistan-obsession may not be a problem of the Indian media alone. It runs deeper and is clearly more systemic. I asked a foreign ministry official in Delhi about the procedure for Indian journalists to get accreditation to the Saarc summit in Thimpu this month. My friend said with concern: “Good question, boss. We are going too slowly on this. I am sure the Pakistanis will land there with a huge delegation.”

    Of course the India-Pakistan obsession is a mutually counter-productive element in South Asian diplomacy. Pakistan has its own bee in the bonnet with regard to India. Its leaders never tire of complaining bitterly about Delhi to anyone they can buttonhole.

    On one occasion a high-profile listener didn’t know who the petitioner was and who the accused. On April 6, 1995, recalls The Telegraph’s correspondent, when Benazir Bhutto was escorted to the US Senate floor by the late Jesse Helms, he introduced her thus: “The Foreign Relations Committee has had the honour of welcoming the distinguished prime minister of India and I wish to bring her to the floor.”

    With Benazir looking horrified, the Republican senator compounded the error by saying he had just completed “a delightful hour-and-a-half conversation” with the Pakistani prime minister and she was talking mostly about India.

    Perhaps the most embarrassing moment for any sovereign country should be when a visitor tells its leaders how he or she was responsible for mending the host’s ties with their neighbours. And this is precisely what President Bill Clinton was allowed to get away with when he addressed India’s parliament in March 2000. To add to the embarrassment, fawning MPs milled around him to touch him after he told them tersely how he had helped India evict the Pakistanis from Kargil, not militarily as New Delhi claimed, but with America’s diplomatic help.

    Similarly, does any Indian or Pakistani leader realise how ridiculous they look when they allow themselves to be shepherded to shake hands by their foreign hosts? Dr Singh has been prime minister for more than six years but there is nothing on the horizon to indicate that that he is planning a visit to Pakistan any time soon. He is, however, strangely happy to meet a Pakistani counterpart on foreign soil.

    Not only this, the meeting often results in path-breaking pronouncements, more often than not to ease the tensions. Sharm el Sheikh and Havana come to mind where landmark decisions were made. Why not in Delhi or Islamabad?

    A significant fallout for India in this attitude of Brahminical aloofness is the contradictory signals it sends to foreign interlocutors. It tells them on the one hand to assiduously avoid hyphenating India-Pakistan issues. On the other its diplomats and politicians spare no opportunity to snarl at each other in self-wounding public spats. To make it worse they then start to highlight the negatives of each other in witless conversations with a third party. There are several ways for India and Pakistan to develop a more mature policy regarding each other.

    The most successful of these could be to listen to their people — not the TV watching sound-byte fanatics, but ordinary people who seek visas only to be cruelly denied them. These people want to move on to a durable and trusting relationship between their countries. Whatever be the grouse between their countries — terrorism, the water dispute, Kashmir or ways to find influence in Afghanistan — none of these could or should be resolved by foreign mediators.

    Practically all visitors to Delhi are subjected to a routine question. Do they support India’s quest to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council? They all say it is a good idea. However, few go on to discuss the big impediment in this. How can one nuclear gate-crasher be offered the exalted seat it covets when it cannot conduct a simple dialogue with a nuclear neighbour without being nudged by others?

    If the leaders of India and Pakistan cannot find the courage to take the first step, they should go back to Ghalib’s simple sagacity. Why should any of the two countries grovel before Washington or any other capital? How about learning from China or Russia or Venezuela or even Iran on how to keep their dignity and be a global player.


    experts of full article here http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect...sts/jawed-naqvi-an-embarrassing-obsession-540
     
  2.  
  3. Known_Unknown

    Known_Unknown Devil's Advocate Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2009
    Messages:
    2,632
    Likes Received:
    1,664
    Location:
    Earth
    Wow. There are so many half-truths, speculations and blame mongering in this article that the author cannot be taken as a serious journalist. Is this the level of discourse in the mainstream media in Pakistan?

    I can't remember the last time I read an Indian newspaper that used the words "mullahlike" to describe the foreign policy of Pakistan.

    Unfortunately, through extensive reading, and watching of Pakistani media outlets, I have come to the conclusion that even the so-called mainstream and educated hosts have a "jahil" attitude when it comes to relations with India. There are very few individuals like Najam Sethi, Pervez Hoodbhoy and Hasan Nisar who seem to have a balanced viewpoint.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmQ-vgAx6-0&feature=related

    http://www.dunyanews.tv/newsite/play_program_video.php?id=6273&pid=1676

    Unfortunately, they are in such a tiny minority that their views are an aberration rather than the rule.
     
    Soham and ahmedsid like this.
  4. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2009
    Messages:
    12,038
    Likes Received:
    715
    oops pakistani obsession at nuclear submit was not only with india but it was with all the world.Let me jog the memory of our dear jawed naqvi ji that the main theme of the nuke summit was to prevent nuke terrorism.And when there is a nuke armed state called pakistan which is at present fighting its battle for survival with terrorist there is sure will be worries all over the world that those nukes should not fall into the hands of terrorist so its not only india's obsession with pak but the whole world's obsession coz now world feel threatened with it.secondly when pak has such a stellar reputation in nuke proliferation which makes it the darling of world attention.so jawed naqvi is wrong in saying that india being obsessed with pak.
     
  5. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2009
    Messages:
    12,038
    Likes Received:
    715
    Thats nothing to be surprised about....If u are a regular reader of jawed naqvi in dawn then you must have known that no column of his lack the word brahminical,bania,dalit even once.
     
  6. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 मध्यस्थ Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2009
    Messages:
    2,553
    Likes Received:
    100
    This buffoon Jawed Naqavi is a fool. I wonder why he is allowed in this country. We have no place for such scum.

    Let him get blasted out in a suicide attack in his favorite place.
     
  7. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    24,274
    Likes Received:
    11,283
    Location:
    BANGalore
    That was the line even i picked up. They have to come up with this "Hindu/Brahmin" thing everywhere which makes them lose their credibility of being anywhere close to intellect.
     
  8. venkat

    venkat Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
    Messages:
    904
    Likes Received:
    195
    ^^ Thanks yousuf for pointing that!!! i too was wondering what Hindu and Brahmanism got to do with the indian foreign policy?
     
  9. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    4,434
    Likes Received:
    1,719
    Location:
    Land of the GODS - "Dev Bhomi".
    Well said AJ, but then javed naqvi will have none of it. What he completely forgets is there are ways of dealing different situations as they are confronted with, and it is certainly not some Indian who is known to have run a nuclear-walmart or it was not some Indian scientists who went off to meet osama bin laden with blue prints of nuke weapons or it is certainly not India that is going to be overtaken by jihadi lunatics who had/have direct access to numerous Pakistani nuclear scientists or most of the nuclear proliferation this world has seen does have pointers in just one direction and surprise-surprise it is certainly not India, but sorry to say some innocent country by the name of Pakistan so is it India’s fault that the journos want to talk about Pakistan and I am sure not every journo asking that question would have been an Indian, the whole world is scared and more insecure due these acts of proliferation but then as javed naqvi said it is India’s fault that we are asked such questions on Pakistan’s irresponsible behavior.

    And it is India which survives under the worst form of nuclear terrorism where we keep getting loose threats from the top ranking Pakistani generals of nuke weapon strikes, but then India should keep quite and not talk about all this since as per one very sane person it gets labeled as “India-Pakistan parity An embarrassing obsession”.

    Parity, no ways, its called diplomacy, and seriously what is there that India would want to seek parity with Pakistan on when not so long back in 1993 their per capita nominal gdp was 554usd to india’s 310usd which was a mere 56% for India of that of Pakistan to now where imf puts for Pakistan at 1,017 and for India 1,033 or world bank puts it as 1,013 for Pakistan and 1,068 for India or cia fact book gives India a clear10% advantage at 1,100usd to 1,000usd in case of Pakistan.

    India has a different course to follow and that of economic upliftment, on the contrary Pakistan a military state under the guise of a pseudo democracy has the aim of some weird logic of “strategic depth”, to blackmail the world if their demands are not met with to a clear case of nuclear proliferation to spending anywhere between 4%-5% of their gdp on defence as compared to India’s 2.28% and with that kind of a backdrop we remain least interested in any sort of parity with Pakistan, and hey did someone say Pakistan is a near failed state!

    Seriously India is in no way interested in any-sort of parity with Pakistan and if Pakistan was not to pull up its socks then it wont take long before Pakistan would start seeking parity with Bangladesh who are anyways doing much better on a lot of economic aspects than Pakistan.

    There is a lot to worry for Pakistan if they do not get their act right!
     
    hit&run, gogbot and ahmedsid like this.
  10. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 मध्यस्थ Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2009
    Messages:
    2,553
    Likes Received:
    100
    Why would India want parity with Pakistan! We have spent the better part of the last decade making sure this pathetic hyphenation is broken and Pakistan is hyphenated with its true jodidaar Afghanistan.

    I do agree that Indian politicians should develop the capability to deal with this neighbor on its own. No need to make it a major factor in our interactions with the world. That is demeaning to this country.

    No need to give credence to scum like Jawed Naqawi. His choice of words betrays his intentions. Just throw him out of this country forthwith.
     
    tarunraju likes this.
  11. Rayala

    Rayala New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2010
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    13
    These articles are aimed at the Pakistani audience. The author understands the need of the pakistanis to be made to feel superior(or atleast equal) to Indians. Thus, the author very cleverly caters to this fetish of Pakistanis.
    Meanwhile, Mr. Jawed Naqvi conveniently forgets that India's obsession with Pakistan is only because of the constant and consistent threat of terrorism that India faces from Pakistan. The reason why India complains to the third parties about Pakistan is simply because Pakistan gets aided by these third parties. That aid is then used as fuel to create, control, train and arm the next wave of terrorists against India. India, ideally, should be able to handle the situation on its own regardless of the so-called interanational audience's reactions.

    The most amusing part of the article for me was not the author's crass choice of words; but the author claiming that 'oridnary Indians' seek visas to Pakistan. That was really amusing. How many ordinary citizens would actually seek a visa to Pakistan? And how many of them are 'cruelly denied' the Visa? And then the TV watching Indians are declared as 'sound-byte fanatics', whatever that means.
     
  12. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 मध्यस्थ Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2009
    Messages:
    2,553
    Likes Received:
    100
    This idiot is living in dreams. Pakistan is definitely not on the tourist map for most Indians at this point. A Pakistani visa being cruelly denied! Whoever cares! Is he missing that visa too much?

    People like him live in their own make believe world and spinning myths for their gullible Pakistani readers what they want. Indians have no patience for either Pakistan or their visas. Most would want to have nothing to do with that country once the terror flow is stopped. Stop all visas, all interactions for 25 years, don't let them watch the pirated copies of our movies, our TV, nothing at all.

    Let's see if they are any better after 25 years and then reopen the issue.
     
  13. Rayala

    Rayala New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2010
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    13
    Guess who in Pakistan would be most affected if all interaction with India is stopped? Pakjabi elite. PA generals, their kids, their relatives and the ilk. These are the people who are the brain behind all this evil. The rest of the Pakistan is simply land and people on whom these elite prey on. They have erected an Indan bogey to mislead the aam abduls on the street. It is a masterplan to perpetuate their power through a vicious cycle. This cycle is funded by Unkil through timely aid packages. This deadly snake(PA) was gifted the nuclear fangs by the Chinese.
     
  14. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 मध्यस्थ Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2009
    Messages:
    2,553
    Likes Received:
    100
    Take away this Indian bogey and let them find their "identity". They have not found it in 60+ years, let them struggle some more.

    One day they will figure out that a negative identity can only take them so far and no further.
     
  15. Rayala

    Rayala New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2010
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    13
    In the absence of the Indian bogey(the negative identity), the aam abdul will latch onto the regional identity: Balochi, Pastun, Sindhi...etc. Thus, obviously the rulers do not intend to destruct the carefully constructed Indian bogey. Indian establishment, perhaps, realizes that the Indian bogey must be removed and the aam abdul must be made to concentrate on the PA.

    Method 1)The natural and straightforward method is to try and show to the average pakistani that India is not its enemy. By allowing them a visit to India, convince them that India is not 'hindu bania' ruled country and that the muslims are not suppressed. By allowing cultural and other contacts, sow the seeds of friendship with the aam abdul. To give an analogy, its like a small kid(aam abdul) is being taught by his parent(PA) that his neighbour(India) is a very evil person. The nieghbour(India) wants to convince the child(aam abdul) that he is not an evil person, so he offers some cookies and cakes(cultural contacts, sports ties...etc) to the child(aam abdul). The child(aam abdul) takes the cookies(movies, sports,...etc) and goes back to his home(Pakistan). At the home(Pakistan), parent(PA) again tells the child(aam abdul) that all the problems in their house are because of the nieghbour(India). The child(aam abdul) is convinced by the parent's(PA's) version no matter how many cookies neighbour(India) offers.

    Method 2)The alternative method is to accept that the people of Pakistan will view India as an enemy. Therefore, trying to portray ourselves as their friend will have further negative effect. So, India must simply act like an enemy is expected to act. That means no more cultural, sports, or people to people contact. No more friendship tamasha. No visas for any pakistani(even a foreign residing one) to visit India. As long as, India denies the bogey, the PA can keep playing it but once India says, "yes, we are your enemy and we are getting stronger and we are leaving you behind in every field.", it will have an interesting effect. Then the aam abdul would look towards his rulers(PA) to keep their country abreast with India in the fields like infrastructure, technology, entertainment...etc. If PA is found wanting(which it will be), then the abdul's ire will be directed towards the PA. To give an analogy: The parent(PA) tells the small child(aam abdul) that their neighbour(India) is their evil enemy. The neighbour(India) tells the small child(aam abdul) that indeed he is their enemy. And the neighbour(India) says that because they are enemies, he(India) wont give any cookies(cultural, sports or entertainment contact) to the child(aam abdul) instead these things are given by the neighbour(India) to his own child(Indian public) in front of small child(aam abdul). The small child(pakistani public) will see that the neighbour's child(Indian public) is having great fun. He (aam abdul) then goes to his own parent(PA) and demands the cookies(development, infranstructure...etc) that the neighbour's child(Indian public) is enjoying. If the parent(PA) is not able to provide the kid(aam abdul) with those cookies, the kid(aam abdul) will hate the parent(PA).

    We have already tried the first method and it has failed for sometime now. IK Gujral's policies must also be viewed in this light. But now that the first method has failed, it is time to pursue the next method.
     
    Vinod2070 likes this.
  16. GokuInd

    GokuInd Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2009
    Messages:
    173
    Likes Received:
    38

    That a bloke like him is allowed to spew his rantings and ravings in "Hindu" India despite all badmouthing should speak volumes about the state of affairs in his country.
     
  17. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 मध्यस्थ Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2009
    Messages:
    2,553
    Likes Received:
    100
    Such scum don't value the democracy and tolerance. They have only contempt for any civility shown on them.

    They only respect the brute power, like China deals with its Uighurs. That sets them cowering. I wish Indian politicians develop the guts to make a horrible example of such shyt.
     
  18. Rayala

    Rayala New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2010
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    13
    It will surely happen. But its not just about the politician, its about the larger system. We, as a nation, are still undergoing the decolonization, in terms of mind and national policy. It will take us some time to be assertive. Nationalistic politics will gradually rise and then the politicians will automatically become more aggressive towards such scums. For example: look at how Nehru looked at India, and how Indira looked at India and then how Rajiv looked at India and finally how Rahul/Varun/Priyanka look at India.

    A cricketing analogy: The older generation of Indian were considered demure and docile and weak. The generation of Kapil Dev, Mohinder Amarnath...etc. Then the generation of Sachin, Saurav, Dravid...etc were considered talented but meek(without the killer instinct), then the generation of Dhoni, Yuvraj, Harbhajan...etc are considered as talented and aggressive.

    When the generation of Dhoni, Yuvraj, Harbhajan...etc start becoming the PMs and CMs, we will see the agressive side of India. : )
     
    Vinod2070 likes this.
  19. venkat

    venkat Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
    Messages:
    904
    Likes Received:
    195
    There are people in India who fall for pakistanis!!! I was disappointed when Sania Mirza married a Pakistani!!! Everybody watched as if nothing happened and nobody protested!!! How pakistan would have reacted ,had sania belongs to Pakistan and marries an Indian? Every mullah in Pakistani street would have issued a fatwa. These kind of acts will give credence to the authors claims. Just don't start jumping on me for bringing sania Mirza in to this!!!she is no ordinary indian citizen!!!
     
  20. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 मध्यस्थ Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2009
    Messages:
    2,553
    Likes Received:
    100
    Let's keep Sania out of this. She made a foolish decision and lost her popularity in this country. She will likely regret this.
     
  21. Rayala

    Rayala New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2010
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    13
    Just to reinforce my point.

    Sohail Tanveer is an example of aam abdul who gets cookies(sporting contact, visiting India) from neighbor(India) but then he goes back and bad mouths the neighbor(India). Here is a video of Sohail Tanveer abusing the Indians(particularly Hindus) after exclusion of Pakistani cricketers.



    Also, notice the attitude of the anchors, they freely abuse India. If the public media uses this kind of language to describe India, Indians and Hindus, then what would be the attitude of the aam abdul?

    Rather than being grateful for allowing Sohail Tanveer to participate in the first IPL, he abuses India for not buying him again. Sohail Tanveer earned US $ 100,000 in first IPL which is equivalent to 84,00,000 Pakistani rupee. Yet, he has no gratitude, instead he is angry that the 'evil hindus' have not bought him again. He displays a typical pakistani sense of entitlement: that the world owes them something. So, when the neighbor(India) tries to befriend the kid(aam abdul) with cookies(sports, enterntainment, culture,..etc), the kid(aam abdul) only has contempt for the neighbor(India).

    Even after making such abusive statements, Sohail Tanveer has been hosted by India. Sohail Tanveer recently attended the high profile wedding of Sania Mirza and Shoibh Malik. Link. Later, he visited Kolkatta to attend an IPL match.

    He further hopes to play for the future IPLs Even though he has not displayed any sense of regret or shame at his earlier statements. Neither has he apologised.

    Now, some Indians may construe this as India's magnanimity but it will be viewed by the aam abdul(in this case Sohail Tanveer) and the rest of the world as contemptible cowardice or complete lack of self respect.

    In this case, the aam abdul sees no reason to question his parent(PA) because gets his cookies anyway from the neighbor. But instead, if the cookies are stopped by the neighbor(India) then aam abdul will look towards his parent(PA) for cookies.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
    Known_Unknown and Vinod2070 like this.

Share This Page