India Pakistan Nuke Scenario - NFU Policy - Massive Retaliation & Possible War Scenarios

Krusty

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Your wish my command thala... Are we going to do it on Farmers protest or on Hindi imposition propaganda in TN :cowboy:
means you haven't read my post yet. :biggrin2: It's posted already. That's why my comment here
 

Kshatriya87

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Declassified Intelligence Reports Reveal the Chinese First Strike EMP Option
A declassified intelligence report, obtained by the private National Security Archive, provides details on Chinas EMP weapons as well as the plans for their use.

The report details how much of China’s military is developing EMP weapons that the Chinese plan to use against targeted U.S. aircraft carriers with regard to any future conflict over Taiwan. Parts of the National Ground Intelligence Center study on the lethal effects of electromagnetic pulse (EMP) and high-powered microwave (HPM) weapons revealed that the arms are part of what China refers to as the “assassin’s mace”. This arsenal of EMP weapons allows a technologically inferior China to defeat U.S. military forces while leaving much of the surrounding infrastructure intact. The report further states “For use against Taiwan, China could detonate at a much lower altitude (30 to 40 kilometers) … to confine the EMP effects to Taiwan and its immediate vicinity and minimize damage to electronics on the mainland.”

The once labeled “top secret ” report, revealed that Chinese military writings have emphasized the importance of building low-yield EMP warheads. The report said that future Chinese EMP weapons should emphasize developing “any low-yield strategic nuclear warhead (or tactical nuclear warheads) could be used with similar effects. The DF-21 medium-range ballistic missile was prominently mentioned as a platform for the EMP attack against a country such as Taiwan”. Of course, this strategy has definitive applicability in its use against the United States.

According to the report, this “trump card” or “assassin’s mace” weapons that are based on new technology, has been developed in high secrecy. Trump card would be applicable if the Chinese have developed new low-yield, possibly enhanced, EMP warheads, while assassin’s mace would apply if older warheads are employed, the report said.
Unless china intends to follow up with an attack to sink the aircraft carrier, this EMP would be of no use. As no EMP can disable electronic equipment permanently. Aircraft carrier will be up and running in a few hours.

China has 2 options, keep hitting with EMP bursts till US fleet retreats or sink them.
 

captscooby81

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Guide me through now days DFI forum post are numbering faster than speed of sound ... so share the link to the post where you want to go War with me :biggrin2::biggrin2:

means you haven't read my post yet. :biggrin2: It's posted already. That's why my comment here
 

captscooby81

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First use EMP and shut down the electronics and then launch DF-21 carrier killer and sink the Battle groups is the plan... i don t think the Chinese are so dumb to just keep using EMP s especially against american s with such a vast Carrier battle group s ..

Unless china intends to follow up with an attack to sink the aircraft carrier, this EMP would be of no use. As no EMP can disable electronic equipment permanently. Aircraft carrier will be up and running in a few hours.

China has 2 options, keep hitting with EMP bursts till US fleet retreats or sink them.
 

Krusty

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Guide me through now days DFI forum post are numbering faster than speed of sound ... so share the link to the post where you want to go War with me :biggrin2::biggrin2:
Wait a minute you don't get alerts? o_O or maybe your alerts fill up too fast cause you are captain Audi...
 

Kshatriya87

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First use EMP and shut down the electronics and then launch DF-21 carrier killer and sink the Battle groups is the plan... i don t think the Chinese are so dumb to just keep using EMP s especially against american s with such a vast Carrier battle group s ..
If you think that a low yield nuke can reach US fleet, why not DF-21? Instead of using a nuke for an EMP burst, why not use DF-21 directly and sink the carrier in the first hit?

Here's the thing. Its not that simple. US fleet can see missiles coming from miles away. US fleet is armed to the neck with BMDs & SAMs. No missile hit can get near to the fleet unless you hit them with a 100 missiles simultaneously.
 

captscooby81

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ha ha ha ennn da ennn ... well i get less alerts but i have this habit of missing things which are infront of my eye s .. so remove this blind mans darkness and show me the light which you want to guide towards me

Wait a minute you don't get alerts? o_O or maybe your alerts fill up too fast cause you are captain Audi...
 

captscooby81

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I am not able to find that exact article and video which was talking about it .. let me explain as per what i understood or remember the video .

Its because the US has a very strong SAM and BMD system the chinese want to first blast a nuclear bomb somewhere little away from the US battle group and once the EMP gets created and started spreading and shuts down the electronics they will launch their missile attack on the US carrier s ..This is what my layman mind understood let me see if i able to find the exact video which was explaining it or the article how chinese planning to use EMP on US Aircraft carriers

If you think that a low yield nuke can reach US fleet, why not DF-21? Instead of using a nuke for an EMP burst, why not use DF-21 directly and sink the carrier in the first hit?

Here's the thing. Its not that simple. US fleet can see missiles coming from miles away. US fleet is armed to the neck with BMDs & SAMs. No missile hit can get near to the fleet unless you hit them with a 100 missiles simultaneously.
 

scatterStorm

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Although @scatterStorm already mentioned most of the facts, I would add one point from my side. When you talk about something like Tsar Bomba, you are talking about a Hydrogen bomb. Now a hydrogen bomb is much clean then a nuclear bomb in respect to nuclear fallout. It means it does have a lot less unused fuel in it in form of Uranium or Plutonium. So radioactive fallout of a hydrogen bomb is much less then that of a conventional nuclear bomb.
Indeed the "teller-ulam" design of the worlds first thermonuclear bomb was a breakthrough and could be considered as a modern military or science marvel. But considering potential thermonuclear exchanges between us and pakis(I still doubt they have it in there arsenal) no man, women or child would be safe. Better build bomb shelters as probability of an ABM interception is still unlikely, even one detonation could disrupt signals in RF spectrum for few days and can also potentially fry up SOCs.
 

scatterStorm

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Yep. The problem is far too many of our own people gladly swallow their propaganda and subterfuge. I myself had a hard time with my cousins who are all well educated. I don't know what can be done to wipe of this mass ignorance. Education is clearly not helping.:laugh:
The elites will always try to keep the masses in check, they will do anything in there power to remain in power. Creating mass hysteria and constant war mongering will roll there economic war machine. Thus no wonder if few people say the truth they are bashed without considering the possibility that we as humans are stupid and can have biases. Even Einstein quoted that.
 

lcafanboy

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Where are pakistani nuclear weapons stored?












8 Answers
Updated Feb 10

My name is not important but I have the answer to this question. I have given the location at the end of this answer but before knowing the location there are few important things to know. First and foremost it must be realized that even though the Pakistani forces are incapable to provide security to their own citizens today, they have however made sure that their nuclear missile bases are secured and safe. Several of these bases have been rounded with 4–5 fences and the facilities are often underground.

Now to know the location of Pakistan’s nuclear bases it is essential to understand the country’s nuclear doctrine (i.e to understand in what way does Pakistan intend to use it’s nuclear weapons if the situation arises).

PAKISTAN’s NUCLEAR DOCTRINE

The reason behind the acquisition of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons was the need to make the price of attacking Pakistan so high that it’s enemy India would not launch a full scale war against it. This provides Pakistan with a very high threshold to export terrorists across the border/LoC into India without being worried about any major military offensive from the Indian side.

Pakistan knows it very well that if India declares a full fledged war against Pakistan, it is incapable of defeating or even stopping the Indian advance forces in today’s world. Therefore it needs to ensure that if overwhelming Indian forces march into Pakistan, they can use tactical nuclear weapons against them to stop them. Tactical nuclear weapons are smaller low-yield weapons which are not powerful enough to destroy a city but powerful enough to decapitate any advancing forces (in this case an Indian Strike Corps)

Now using tactical nuclear weapons against Indian forces is a very tricky situation as the nuclear policy of India dictates it crystal clear that India reserves the right to retaliate punitively(using mega-yield nuclear weapons against cities) if any country chooses to strike it’s territory or it’s forces with nuclear weapons.

The deployment of Pakistan’s tactical nuclear weapons is in the hope that if Pakistan attacks Indian Invading Forces with tactical nuclear weapons on Pakistani Soil then maybe somehow the world would imply pressure on India to stop it from a PUNITIVE RETALIATION.

This assumption is not entirely absurd, because since India’s own territory has not been attacked with nuclear weapons, the world might have some grounds to stop India from retaliating with a full-scale nuclear attack. The world might try to bargain non-retaliation from India in exchange for sanctions against Pakistan. This might also work since any punitive retaliation against Pakistan comes with a possibility of a similar counter retaliation from Pakistan as well(this time against Indian cities with higher yield weapons). Yes India has an Anti Ballistic Missile Defense system but the mere possibility of even 1% of it failing against a real nuclear threat is going to make Nuclear Retaliation a very difficult decision for Indian leadership unless it’s own territory has been nuked.

However, a lot depends on the leadership of the time in India and the general public mood of the time. So, if India chooses not to retaliate, Pakistan will be imposed with innumerable sanctions, diplomatic isolations, and international repercussions but PAKISTAN WILL CONTINUE TO EXIST. Also, India will loose it’s entire Strike Corps but not win the war. That might not go down well with the Indian people though.

Therefore, there is also an equal possibility that India would not heed to the world and go ahead with it’s declared policy of MASS RETALIATION. Now, according to my present knowledge India is well aware of the information I am going to share below(regarding the locations of Pakistan’s Nuclear weapons) and India would try to ensure that in it’s first strike itself, it renders Pakistan incapable of a counter Mass Retaliation.

Now, to ensure that this happens India is most likely going to use it’s Air Force or conventional/nuclear tipped Brahmos supersonic cruise missiles as they are one of the few weapons with India which Pakistan does not possess the capability to intercept. The range of BrahMos is 290 Kms.

So following are the requirements that Pakistan has kept in mind while deploying it’s nuclear weapons.
1.) It needs two types of nuclear weapons i.e tactical low-yield warheads(for initial retaliation against advancing enemy forces) as well as Strategic high-yield warhead(for counter retaliation to ensure Mutual Assured Destruction)

2.) The low-yield warheads need to be deployed in forward border areas on shorter range ballistic missiles and forward airbases to ensure the shortest flight time to attack while the higher-yield strategic warheads need to be deployed away from borders on long range ballistic missiles to keep them out of range of Indian Air Force and BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles.

3.) The higher yield nuclear weapons to be well dug in to safeguard against any possible attacks from India.

Now, if you see the actual nuclear deployment of Pakistan, this is pretty much what they have achieved.

LOCATIONS OF NUCLEAR BASES OF PAKISTAN.

1.) TACTICAL NUCLEAR DEPLOYMENT OF PAKISTAN

  1. GUJRANWALA (Near Lahore) 32 14 27 N x 74 04 23 E
    Construction b/w- March 2011 - August 2014
    Deployment - Nasr TELs(60Km) and Ghaznavi (400Km)
    Distance from International Border- 60Kms
    Status- Active

  • Two large hardened High Bay Garages (100x20m) with blast doors on the East and 5m wide exit doors on the west(below picture). Each garage is connected to the square launch platform with a 6m wide pathway

  • Most likely they can accommodate around 10 TELs (Transporter Erector Launcher)

    Tyre marks suggest that regular trials are conducted
2. PANO AQIL(NEAR SUKKUR) 27 50 06 N x 69 09 28 E


  • Construction b/w 2010 - 2015
  • Deployment - Ghaznavi (400Kms)
  • Similar to Gujranwala but smaller facility
  • Distance from IB- 80–90Kms

 

lcafanboy

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3. PAF AIRBASE MASHROOR (NEAR KARACHI) 24 53 43 N x 66 55 39 E


Recently constructed Operational Readiness Platform (ORP)

  • Constructed b/w 3/2014 - 3/2016
  • Construction- Hardened with RCC and Steel plates followed by RCC again. It contains an underground vault system together with Weapons Storage Bunker (WSB) connected with an underground passage of 30m


  • Operational Aims-
    • To have nuclear weapons and related aircraft at operational readiness at all times.
    • Evade chances of India knowing if the weapon has been loaded or not.
    • Ensure survivability of weapons even after First Strike from India.
  • Deployments - Nuclear missile equipped Aircrafts which can take off at very short notice.
  • Distances - 600Kms from Ahmedabad, 900Kms from Mumbai and 1100Kms from Delhi.
2.) STRATEGIC NUCLEAR DEPLOYMENT OF PAKISTAN (HIGH-YIELD WEAPONS)

  1. KORI UNDERGROUND NUCLEAR FACILITY 27 40 45 N x 66 56 23 E

  • Mountain excavated Nuclear Base(possibly with the help of Chinese Tunneling Technology) with three tunnel entrances.
  • Deployment of Medium Range Missiles
  • Status- Under Construction
  • Objective: To survive the first strike by the India and deliver counter-strikes on behalf of Pakistan
  • Located beyond the range of Indian BrahMos missiles.

3.) PAKISTAN NUCLEAR WARHEAD STORAGE FACILITIES

1. GADWAL URANIUM STORAGE FACILITY 33 49 10 N x 72 45 05 E


  • Heavily camouflaged facility with six bunkers with four layers of security fencing.
  • Location next to Gadwal Uranium Enrichment Facility
  • Facility is guarded by a DSG battalion
  • Second fence is guarded by ten concrete guard posts.
  • Six camouflaged bunkers storing either weaponized warheads or weapons grade enriched Uranium.
 

lcafanboy

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2. PETARO NUCLEAR WARHEAD STORAGE FACILITY 25 32 55 N x 68 20 03 E


  • Highly sophisticated Warhead Storage Facility with modern support systems like MW Communication, Satellite/Missile tracking, Launch pads and infrastructure for a Brigade strength of troops including family accommodations.

  • Hardened Underground Bay with garages and heavy duty fork lifts concealing AC vents. The facility can store 50 to 2400 warheads depending on the method of storage.

  • Construction: Below the hardened concrete structure are four bays of 30x10m and four bays of 20x10m conected by 200x10m passage.
  • The compound also encloses a long range rifle firing range, Satellite/Missile tracking facility, Helipad and independent TELs showing readiness for deployment.
  • Dependent on Hyderabad Airbase for air cover.
3. KHUZDAR WARHEAD STORAGE FACILITY 27 43 20 N x 66 37 27 E


  • Sophisticated underground warhead storage facility very similar to the one in Petaro in design.

  • Apart from Hardened Underground Facility, it has MW Communications, Launch Pads and infrastructure for regiment strength of troops. It has TELs near the garages and in-campus 300m firing range and obstacle course same as Petaro facility.
  • Missile tracking system is not observed here.

  • Construction: Under the hardened structure are two Y shaped storages with three bays each of 50x10m and 25x10m each. Six bays are interconnected with 200x10m passage.
  • It can store 46 to 2640 warheads (depending on the method of storage)
So, if you carefully notice, the entire Eastern border of Pakistan with India is well within the range of the two forward Tactical Nuclear Bases of Gujranwala and Pano Aqil(given the range of Ghaznavi being 400Kms). So in case Indian Army Strike Corps attack Pakistan, it will wait till they enter Pakistani territory and then launch Tactical Nuclear Weapons from either Gujranwala or Pano Aqil hoping that the world will convince India not to retaliate.


If however, India does retaliate with Nuclear attacks, the facilities at Petaro, Khuzdar and Mashroor will be used to launch further attacks. If for some reason, India manages to destroy these facilities before they attack, then Pakistan will use it’s mountain excavated KORI Nuclear Facility to launch long range ballistic missiles at Indian cities.

If the Indian Navy Aircraft carrier blockades Karachi, then PAF Aircrafts from Mashroor Airbase equipped with Ra’ad missiles will be used to launch tactical nuclear missiles at the Indian Navy fleet.

CONCLUSION: Pakistan has well defended it’s territory using tactical nuclear weapons and it has ensured that the price for Indian Forces to retaliate to the terrorists exported by Pakistan is so high that Indian Army would never launch a full scale attack on Pakistan. Any unthoughtful action on behalf of the Indians would cause them heavy damages.

However, India has the capability to destroy all these facilities except the one at KORI at present as the KORI facility is out of range of the BrahMos missiles and is also located in the core of the mountains. If India can manage to sabotage all these facilities somehow before launching an all out war, Pakistan will be defenseless and could be easily defeated in less than 72 hours.

This is because Pakistan has spent billions of dollars on the construction of these facilities and warheads and missiles. So much so, that it has left the country bankrupt without much to spend even on it’s Armed Forces. As per intelligence sources Pakistan can sustain to fight an all out war with India only for 4 days after which it would face severe ammunition, fuel and supply shortages.

THE GAME IS SOMEHOW STILL IN INDIA’S COURT.

Edit: The Brahmos' range is to be increased to 600 km as india has entered MTCR and the Russians have agreed. Also, a hypersonic Brahmos-II is in the works.

EDIT: I have created a new untraceable ID on Quora where you may follow me if you want. I have a lot of information up my sleeves and would like to loose them all.

>>> Ram <<< Read, upvote, share and then follow me here.

https://www.quora.com/Where-are-pakistani-nuclear-weapons-stored

@IndianHawk @Willy2 @roma @Krusty @Defcon 1 @Ghanteshwar @raheel besharam @raja696 @Amr @AnkitPurohit @Akshay_Fenix @aditya10r @airtel @aditya10r @ancientIndian @Bahamut @Berkut @Bornubus @Bengal_Tiger @ersakthivel @FRYCRY @Gessler @HariSud @hit&run @hardip @indiandefencefan @IndianHawk @JayPatel @Kshatriya87 @LETHALFORCE @Mikesingh @NavneetKundu @OneGrimPilgrim @pmaitra @PaliwalWarrior @Pulkit @smestarz @SakalGhareluUstad @Srinivas_K @ShashankSharma @Superdefender @Screambowl @TacticalFrog
 

Tarun Kumar

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Underground facilities cannot be completely destroyed by India. What will do the trick is space launched missiles . Having multiple vehicles orbiting space to destroy enemy's launchpads backed by thousands of brahmos strikes will do the trick. The rest can be mopped up by our BMD
 

lcafanboy

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Furthering my post:

Pakistan has a nuclear stockpile of between 130 and 140 nuclear warheads, according to a group of American scientists, whose tally is partially based on close scrutiny of satellite images and matches other recent estimates. Their report also reiterates that in violation of the US' guidelines, Pakistan has converted its F-16 fighter jets for use with nuclear weapons. In addition to this, "French-produced Mirage aircraft are widely assumed to be equipped to deliver the Raad air-launched cruise missile.''

The report indicates that a detachment of Pakistani air force fighters capable of delivering nuclear warheads are housed at the Masroor Air Base west of Karachi which offers ''a large underground facility that is located inside a high-security area. The underground facility is possibly a command center."


Pakistani's primary means of delivering nuclear weapons, however, are through cruise and ballistic missile systems. The report, titled "Pakistan's Evolving Nuclear Weapons Infrastructure", has used commercially-available satellite images to identify ten Pakistani facilities, including five missile garrisons and at least two air bases, which have been used to assemble and house nuclear missile launchers.

Hans M Kristensen, a top scientist at FAS, said, ''Analysis of commercial satellite photos has identified features that suggest that at least five bases might serve a role in Pakistan's emerging nuclear posture. This includes army garrisons at Akro [Sindh], Gujranwala [Punjab], Khuzdar [Balochistan], Pano Aqil [Sindh], and Sargodha. A sixth base at Bahawalpur may be under construction. There is also a seventh base near Dera Ghazi Khan, but the infrastructure is very different and not yet convincing."


The satellite images indicate the presence of vehicles associated with nuclear-capable missiles which can strike targets ranging from a relatively close distance of less than 100 kms to others of an intermediate range which can target most areas in India and employ technology and components transferred to Pakistan from China.

The report also concludes that a string of facilities west of Islamabad, which comprise the Pakistani National Development Complex, are key to producing Shaheen-2 medium-range ballistic missile launchers and Babur ground-launched cruise missile launchers.


The Pakistani National Development Complex which is located west of Islamabad.

The report concludes that Pakistan's nuclear arsenal remains in a ''dynamic phase'' though Islamabad "might not intend to continue to increase its arsenal indefinitely but may soon reach the goal for the size of its full-spectrum deterrent.'' Essentially, that Pakistan's nuclear weapons programme is growing, meeting the country's requirements and acting as a full-fledged deterrent against India.

Source:ndtvindia.com
 

scatterStorm

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Underground facilities cannot be completely destroyed by India. What will do the trick is space launched missiles . Having multiple vehicles orbiting space to destroy enemy's launchpads backed by thousands of brahmos strikes will do the trick. The rest can be mopped up by our BMD
You mean to say, what US have in there arsenal, the "Zeus" kinetic kill weapon, a low earth orbiting silo, capable of dropping 8 ton of tungsten rod. It could be a possibility, I mean given the funds ISRO and DRDO can come up to something. But this is just wishful thinking, in an event of a possible war, covert ops will the only thing we would have as tip of the spear. Yeah we can deploy Synthetic aperture telescope over pakistan, we can track NASR batteries from up above in real time even if they hide its thermal signature.

IMHO I think much of task should be given to "airborne core", as you just can drop them inside enemy territory, historical examples like "battle of Normandy" and landing at Omaha beach in WW2 taught military that successful deep penetration and sabotage can be achieved via good use of air dominance and airborne Core.

But this would require our tri-service to be in full sync. A massive campaign that would put even Iraq war campaign to shame. Arty, MLRS and Brahmos fired at full potential. Using air dominance both by Navy, Airforce and Army aviation corps. Then mobilising our 23rd armoured core at full swing. The only problem is that they don't retaliate first. Surprise element will be lost.
 

Tarun Kumar

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I think if we put right people, young people in charge, they can do wonders. Today launching a kinetic kill vehicle from a earth orbiting space vehicle is very feasible. ISRO already has the space vehicle tech and putting small warheads is eminently possible. It just needs will to accomplish. BMDs cannot handle a salvo of missiles. They are useless to defend cities. At best you can protect some vital installations. Boost phase kill is the best solution and it can be achieved in next 10 years if we show the will . Off course it will mean militarizing ISRO which must be done.
 

Krusty

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I think if we put right people, young people in charge, they can do wonders. Today launching a kinetic kill vehicle from a earth orbiting space vehicle is very feasible. ISRO already has the space vehicle tech and putting small warheads is eminently possible. It just needs will to accomplish. BMDs cannot handle a salvo of missiles. They are useless to defend cities. At best you can protect some vital installations. Boost phase kill is the best solution and it can be achieved in next 10 years if we show the will . Off course it will mean militarizing ISRO which must be done.
Not possible. UN has an extensive set of laws and treaties regarding usage of space. One among which is a law that bars any countries from weaponising their assets in space or placing any form of weapon in space . Or else USA or Russia would have done it already.
 

Mikesingh

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@lcafanboy Wow! Pretty comprehensive info even if 50% is correct. Thanks for that link!

I think our CARTOSATs have pretty detailed info on Pak's nuke facilities and storage areas and our missiles are ready with eight figure grid references of these targets.
 

aditya10r

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Not possible. UN has an extensive set of laws and treaties regarding usage of space. One among which is a law that bars any countries from weaponising their assets in space or placing any form of weapon in space . Or else USA or Russia would have done it already.
Who knows if they have weapons in space.........................
 

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