India out of global best campus list

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by EagleOne, Sep 10, 2010.

  1. EagleOne

    EagleOne Regular Member

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    New Delhi: Four Chinese universities figure in the list of the world's best 50 educational institutions, even as India's sole representative in the top 200 -- IIT Bombay -- has slipped 24 places from its 2009 position.

    The University of Cambridge has replaced Harvard as the world's best university in the prestigious QS World University Rankings, 2010, published in London yesterday. Six of the top 10 universities in the world are American, the other four are in the UK. The US and UK share positions 1 through 17 among themselves.

    The QS rankings, earlier published in collaboration with Times Higher Education, are an annual ranking of the top 500 universities in the world, based on an academic reputation index, employer reputation index, institution inclusion, and research among other criteria.

    Among Asian countries, Japan has 10 universities in the top 200; China and Korea have six and five respectively. India has one -- IIT Bombay at No. 187, down from No. 163 in 2009.

    IIT Guwahati has crashed 100 places from No. 401 to No. 501, University of Delhi is down 80 places from 291 to 371, IIT Delhi is down 21 from 181 to 202, and IIT Kanpur is down 12 from 237 to 249. The Universities of Mumbai and Pune are in the 450-500 bracket, comparable to Tehran.

    In contrast, three of the four Chinese universities in the top 50 have improved their positions since last year. At No. 23, the University of Hong Kong is up one place, and on top of the Asian pile. The Chinese University of Hong Kong is up to 42 from 46, and Peking University is up to 47 from 52.

    Hong Kong University of Science and Technology is at No. 40, down from No. 35 last year.
    Beijing's Tsinghua University is the fifth Chinese institution in the top 100, coming in at No. 54.

    Martin Ince, convener of the Academic Advisory Board for the QS World University Rankings, said that the poor performance by the IITs apart, "the real story is the very modest showing of all other Indian higher education in our rankings".

    "Delhi University scores well in our assessment of academic and employer opinion but very poorly on our other measures -- faculty/student ratio, citations, international staff, international students," Ince wrote in an email to The Indian Express.

    "This is a very modest performance for the flagship university of a very significant nation... Note too that many universities around the world are investing heavily and want to be prominent in this and other rankings. So universities need to improve just to stand still."

    IIT Guwahati director, Prof Gautam Barua, expressed surprise and disappointment over the steep fall in the institute's rank and said he would examine the issue. IIT Kanpur director Sanjay G Dhande, however, said that wide disparities in the budgetary structures of Indian and Western institutions -- even though faculty and student profiles may be comparable -- make it unfair to measure them by the same yardstick.

    Indian government policymakers argue that international ranking criteria are based largely on western models and do not take into account several other indicators. The University Grants Commission is in fact, in the process of developing its own ranking system based on "Indian indicators of performance".

    Ince, however, argued that "the much more prominent position of Chinese universities than Indian ones proves that we are not simply being nice to western institutions". He added, "In fact, India's tradition of the English language ought to give it a big advantage over China in world higher education, but we do not see this effect at work."

    HRD Minister Kapil Sibal, though, struck an optimistic note.

    "In the next ten years several of our institutes will be among the top 100 in international rankings. Without commenting on the merits and demerits of these rankings, with the reform in education systems, we should see more Indian institutes figuring on them. It should also be thought what should be adopted as a global criteria... not necessary it has to be western-style", Sibal told

    The Indian Express.
     
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  3. nimo_cn

    nimo_cn Senior Member Senior Member

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    How credible this list can be?

    Last time i saw a list of the world's 100 best compus, no universities from China appeared in that list, but now there are four among the top 50, i am a little confused!

    This is the list i saw, sorry i can't find the link.

    Rank Name of University Country
    1 Harvard University USA
    2 University of Oxford UK
    3 University of Cambridge UK
    4 Stanford University USA
    5 Massachusetts Institute of Technology USA
    6 University of California, Berkeley USA
    7 California Institute of Technology USA
    8 Princeton University USA
    9 Yale University USA
    10 University of Chicago USA
    11 Columbia University USA
    12 University of California, San Diego USA
    13 Cornell University USA
    14 University of California, Los Angeles USA
    15 University Pennsylvania USA
    16 University of Wisconsin, Madison USA
    17 University of Washington, Seattle USA
    18 Tokyo University Japan
    19 University of California, San Francisco USA
    20 University of Michigan, Ann Arbor USA
    21 Kyoto University Japan
    22 Imperial College London UK
    23 Johns Hopkins University USA
    24 University of Toronto Canada
    25 University College London UK
    26 University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign USA
    27 Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, Zurich Switzerland
    28 Washington University, St. Louis USA
    29 New York University USA
    30 Duke University USA
    31 University of Minnesota, Twin Cities USA
    32 Northwestern University USA
    33 Rockefeller University USA
    34 University of Colorado, Boulder USA
    35 University of California, Santa Barbara USA
    36 University of British Columbia Canada
    37 University of Maryland, College Park USA
    38 Utrecht University Netherlands
    39 University of Texas, Austin USA
    40 University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center USA
    41 Pennsylvania State University, University Park USA
    42 University of California, Davis USA
    43 Vanderbilt University USA
    44 University of California, Irvine USA
    45 University of Paris 06 France
    46 University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh USA
    47 University of Southern California USA
    48 Rutgers State University, New Brunswick USA
    49 University of Manchester UK
    50 Karolinska Institute, Stockholm Sweden
    51 University of Munich Germany
    52 Technical University of Munich Germany
    53 University of Florida USA
    54 University of Edinburgh UK
    55 Australian National University Australia
    56 Carnegie Mellon University USA
    57 University of Copenhagen Denmark
    58 University of Zurich Switzerland
    59 Hebrew University, Jerusalem Israel
    60 Osaka University Japan
    61 McGill University Canada
    62 University of Bristol UK
    63 University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill USA
    64 Uppsala University Sweden
    65 Ohio State University, Columbus USA
    66 University of Paris 11 France
    67 University of Sheffield UK
    68 University of Heidelberg Germany
    69 University of Oslo Norway
    70 Case Western Reserve University USA
    71 Moscow State University Russia
    72 University of Leiden Netherlands
    73 Purdue University, West Lafayette USA
    74 University of Helsinki Finland
    75 University of Rochester USA
    76 University of Melbourne Australia
    77 Tohoku University Japan
    78 University of Nottingham UK
    79 University of Arizona USA
    80 Michigan State University USA
    81 King's College London UK
    82 Boston University USA
    83 University of Basel Switzerland
    84 Stockholm University Sweden
    85 Brown University USA
    86 University of Goettingen Germany
    87 Rice University USA
    88 Texas A&M University, College Station USA
    89 Tokyo Institute of Technology Japan
    90 University of Birmingham UK
    91 University of Utah USA
    92 University of Freiburg Germany
    93 McMaster University Canada
    94 Nagoya University Japan
    95 University of Iowa USA
    96 University of Strasbourg 1 France
    97 Ecole Normale Super Paris France
    98 Indiana University, Bloomington USA
    99 Arizona State University, Tempe USA
    100 University of Rome La Sapienza Italy
     
  4. The Messiah

    The Messiah Bow Before Me! Elite Member

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    ^ How many of those universities dont teach in english ?

    English bias is rampant in these farcical ratings and lists.
     
  5. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    Many of the non-english country universities doesn't teach in English at the under graduate level. In some countries they are not taught in English even at Master's stage. But I think the above ranking is more or less on the mark. But if one has to look at the productivity per dollar invested, Indian universities will come trumps but that's not the way the University rankings are calculated. If you look at the list, the most rich universities are the ones which are at the top. They have enormous funding from alumnus and private funding from the Industry. Indian universities have not reached that level and still largely depend on public funding which is still minuscule compared to the funding of the top universities. Harvard and Cambridge spend almost $1-2 billions per annum on their research and academics.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2010
  6. Rahul92

    Rahul92 Senior Member Senior Member

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    I am shocked no IIM's IIM-ahmedabad has been given second rank even in the recession
     
  7. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    That's because 40% of the weighting of QS rankings is based upon the peer review system as a gauge of teaching quality. What is the "peer review": it is in fact a simple opinion survey of academics, asking them which institutions they rated most highly. You can see why that would be a problem, especially when some of the most 'pre-eminent' researchers are concentrated in certain regions of the world. Problems include: reflecting past, not current, performance, opinions being based on stereotype or even ignorance, and that a good or bad reputation may be mindlessly replicated.

    The problem is also compounded, not just by the concentration-bias in the peer sample, but by the small size of the sample as well: last year's Peer Review survey attracted only about 3,500 respondents- a minuscule fraction of the hundreds of thousands of global scholars that exist. An observation of that sample will also tell you that they tend to be concentrated toward the Sciences, leaving the Arts, Humanities and other disciplines of higher education in the lurch. This also factors in when taking into account the dramatically different citations practices between disciplines, and that any such 'sample method' will disproportionately rewarded the hard sciences, where citation counts are higher, over the social sciences, arts and humanities.

    A far better sampling method is that of Thomson Reuters, where some 25,000-odd responses, from a carefully targeted, properly sampled group of individuals- via a neutral third party are obtained. That would mean some 'selection' bias- but at least it would be more representative of the universal at large.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2010
  8. Agantrope

    Agantrope Senior Member Senior Member

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    :emot15::emot15::emot15::emot15::emot15::emot15::emot15:

    Ohio says no to Offfshoring of Govt Jobs and no tax sops for Cos that are outsourcing the Jobs. Now they dont want the students to get out of their country for cheap education.

    Whats next Unkil
     
  9. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    Another thing that bogs down our education system is reservations. There should be NO RESERVATIONS for anyone except physically challenged or citizens with similar problems. If a person from so-called backward class or minority can pass out as an engineer or doctor with 55% while the same non-minority or so-called upper class student has to get in with 90-95% marks. This hampers the talent pool and ability to produce even better output.
     
  10. The Messiah

    The Messiah Bow Before Me! Elite Member

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    Reservations can easily be tackled by increasing number of seats.

    There are reservations because lower caste dont get same class of education as upper caste or middle to rich people.
     
  11. ahmedsid

    ahmedsid Top Gun Senior Member

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    The Best Universities are not based on the people passing out with 99% marks!, there are lots of other factors! Dont bring in issues like Reservation and all that! In India, there is still a need to protect and nurture the downtrodden classes, oppressed for centuries.

    I for one feel that Reservations should be based on the real income, and only for the poor, be them of any castes, but till the time that comes, we need reservations!

    Lastly, there are other threads to discuss reservation, lets discuss the core issue here. God Speed
     
  12. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    I'll be honest. I think the issue of reservations is very real here.

    And reservations particularly because they are based on 'caste', many of which are no longer synonymous with economic deprivation.

    Rather than reservations, I'd like to see a system of 'bursary' and awards for low-income students based on financial need, merit, particular aptitude in a field, excellence at an entrance exam, or demonstrable social or charitable service. The awards could be a seat, or even a quantum- or quorum of seats, for which the eligibility is not 'caste', but something innate in a person- to which all of the attendant features of caste : poverty, social inequality, historical marginalization and the like; act as detriments- after all, the argument even now, is not 'caste' per se, but all the things that have come to be historically associated with specific castes; but no longer correspond exactly to it.

    Universities are not meant for all- let's get that clear. Not even in the West, does the right to education circumscribe higher education. Everyone simply does not have the aptitude to survive four years like that- particularly in a highly-competitive society like ours; nor do we have the resources to ensure that everyone receives a university education at present. Some people are simply better off attending a trade school, or continuing a family profession or a business. We have to do, and make do with, what is good for the society at large. Not with what is good for its politicians, or for its individual sections or for the individual. Perhaps in the long run, when we are a far richer society- may we think of incorporating the right to higher education for all. For now, there are simply more deserving, qualified, intelligent, hard working, meritorious individuals that get sidelined by the reservation system. We are at risk, in the long run, of 'spear-heading' a campaign that will lead to an emulation of native reservations in the United States, no pun intended.

    What we see at present is that the reservation system has depressed the average cut-off mark for entrance at certain universities- which, as they are our only indicator of academic merit, have depressed the average quality of the student. Certainly, that has contributed to a lower long-run mean. With the ruling of two years ago, even medical colleges are susceptible to this phenomenon. With the result that more graduates are being selected out of Tier II and III schools- an important consideration for making the ranking- which don't make the cut anyways. It's time for a change in the way we do things: unfortunately 'quotas' or allocating- resources, jobs or materials, is the way in which politicians make their commitments to the people most 'heard'. The issue is equality of opportunity, not equality of privilege or perquisite.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2010
  13. Energon

    Energon DFI stars Stars and Ambassadors

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    I do not know what exactly the parameters are to rank these institutions, I can say however is that if one were to go by a comprehensive educational experience Indian Universities probably aren't very good when compared to their Western counterparts.

    IITs dispense a rigorous undergraduate education, but don't really have any world class graduate or post graduate programs. Which is why you'll see that almost all the IIT alums who have become successful in the West have post graduate degrees from Western institutions. Harvard, Princeton, MIT, Oxford et. al. excel at all levels of education which comes back full circle to enrich their system as a whole. Like it or not a true collegiate system runs on a circular flow of information through all levels of education in a multitude of disciplines.

    Role of the government, relations with industry and the level of industrialization of the society at large is also an important factor. Industrialized nations in the West, Japan, Australia, South Korea and even places like Israel and Singapore have made excellent use of their university systems to modernize and mechanize their societies. In doing so the bond between Government-University-Industry-Society has evolved to such an extent that it is impossible for institutions in the third world to replicate it. China is clearly making progress in this regard as they increasingly rely upon their institutions to fuel their modernization from within.

    This however is not the case for India. Due to multiple reasons the link between University-Industry and Society got ***ked and remains weak to this day. India tried to modernize itself through its inept government and failed miserably. The result was the establishment of excellent government subsidized undergraduate institutions which began to produce talent primed for emigration to the economically advanced developed world. Clearly no graduate worth his or her salt wished to remain in a miserable and stunted government run economy rife with corruption, inefficiency and lack of opportunity. In true Indian fashion the government that tried to be the savior ended up becoming its own worst enemy.

    IITs and IIMs are primarily famous not because they're world class institutions, but rather because they churn out highly intelligent students in the disciplines of mathematics and physical sciences who go on to be highly productive members of the developed World. Despite having such an intelligent student body, in terms of lab productivity, peer review literature and/or contributions to science and engineering as a whole these institutions aren't world class as such. Furthermore the primary reason IITs and IIMs produce such intelligent graduates is because of the sheer pyramidal nature of the education system in India. With so many intelligent students vying for so few seats in such a populous country gives these institution an advantage of selectivity virtually unmatched anywhere else in the world. However this again has more to do with population demographics and not the institutions themselves per se.

    This is not to say IIT or IIMs are bad institutions, they aren't. They're very good and probably offer some of the most challenging and rigorous coursework in the world. That however will not put them on this list. All in all, I don't think Indian institutions will match up to global competition unless these fundamental issues are resolved. There are many realistic ways in which this can be achieved with proper planning, but whether it actually happens remains to be seen.
     
  14. Energon

    Energon DFI stars Stars and Ambassadors

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    I disagree. Reservations and other such practices are very much responsible for the stunting of the education system in India. While it is true that some select institutions like the IIT may be shielded somewhat from reservations, the overall effects eventually trickle into all walks of life. Reservations deal a death blow to Indian academia's global competitiveness in multiple ways. for instance:
    1. Reservations inherently disallows meritocracy. An educational system devoid of meritocracy cannot possibly compete with ones that aren't. This problem is also carried forward into the work environment, particularly in the public sector; but that's a whole different issue.
    2. Reservations has become an excellent tool for politicians (most of them academically challenged themselves) to indulge in populism. Problem is that hollow populism comes at a huge cost, which in this case is borne entirely by the higher education system. Academia cannot absorb this level of abuse and remain competitive on a global scale.
    3. Needless to say there are many other ways but I'll just stick to these two points for now
    On a separate note I think it's abundantly clear that the best way to tackle a hierarchical society like India's is by providing an excellent primary and secondary level school education. Obviously this isn't done because Indian politicians are averse to long term investments, it renders vote banking useless and government social programs aimed at the poor such as education have always been the greatest source illicit funds for politicians and bureaucrats for whom embezzlement is part of the job description. The overall benefits of reservations have probably been marginal at best and are clearly overshadowed by their disadvantages. Like most government sponsored "social schemes" of the Bharat Sarkaar it actually defeats the primary purpose and has gone on to become a societal burden. But you're right this is a whole separate topic and we shouldn't digress.
     
  15. ahmedsid

    ahmedsid Top Gun Senior Member

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    Reservations are not the only cause I say. And I dont trust these reports of top universities, because I know how the Institute of Management Kerala (IMK) got into the top 5 MBA programmes conducted by a well known Magazine. The folks there showed the MLA Quarters as the Hostel of the College, because its basically in the same compound and lots of other stuff like that happened! The faculty list was highly concocted and I know all of this from close quarters. Hence my apprehensions on such listings, because most of the time, what goes on behind is really silly. No, I am not saying this is flawed, but it can be!
     
  16. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    IIMs never take part in any such rankings, its a policy matter, which means they never spell out all such data that is required for such rankings and so they neither get ranked, other than in the desi rankings which anyways they dont even bother checking out for its a foregone conclusion where they would be standing.
     
  17. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    it is shocking to say the least!

    recently himachal allowed 15 universities to be set up in the state or may i say to set up their shop, all private, infact they were lurked to invest in the state. now generally what happens is kids here much like i did, post their class 10 and 12 leave the state for better places and that is a trend which is still on going so when these 15 univs crept up all of them or some of them initially kept cut offs at 90% for general category and if i recall well then around 80 or 70% (possibly less) for the STs/SCs/OBCs etc but there was no response and today all of them have cut it down to a mere 40% for the general category and a horrific 30% for reserved categories. now we question quality, where is the quality going to come up from, its all a sorry state of affairs, and i am sure if this is what is happening in himachal then something similar would be happening around the country.

    education at the end of the day has become a business and nothing more, and it is really sad to see a whole bunch of people passing out from all these institutes who would be having a real hard time to even get a grasp of what would be happening around them or what is to be expected of them, let alone expecting a solution from them. an engineer who scored 30% marks in class 12, a doc who scored 30% marks in class 12, what is it that one is going to expect of these young minds. disasters in making? i am sure a carpenter, a mason or a roadside auto mechanic would do a better job than these 30 percenter civil or mechanical engineers!

    no wonder the industry keeps crying and laying stress on employable youth!
     
  18. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    This ranking is “probably” an anglo-usa study and I wouldn’t be surprised it might be finance by dragon ? It is v obviously biased towards such ….

    How do I say that ? I actually studied at one fo the top 20 on that list , I did a research master’s there for a couple of years (part-tiem ) while holding a job and I know for a fact that many of those way beyond the hundres are comparable or even better - depending on the niche ….

    All the IIT’s ( Indian inst of techs ) for example are easlity within the top 5 but none are there ? It is a rubbish survery :! I have met iit ggrads and those in maths will make the top Maths student at say Cambridge U ( ranked #1 ) look like a dunce !

    When it comes to literature and the arts , ok the Cambridge guy has a sure advantage and I miles better , but not in areas like mat or even business studies -

    the survey is a very “dedicated” work , and narrow - it is no way comprehensive and I would say it really aint worth the paper ……

    (( btw admin pls note , the searrch facility works well - i used it to find this even though it's been out of the normal view by now ))
     
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