India now a defacto nuclear 'have' - Pakistan, Brazil cry foul

[roma]

I disagree that Brazil dont needs nuke weapons. We can be not bordering china, but this don't means we are not surrounded by nuke powers. As I said South America is USA backyards, so Brazil's ascension will inevitably shock itself with US interests, and USA is a nuke power. USA till has reactived their 4th Fleet, responsible by policing the South Atlantic.

There are also British presence throughout islands in South Atlantic Ocean, which is a zone that Brazil considers as their sphere. And UK are a nuke power too.

Finally, we border France through the French Guyana, an oversea french province. In French Guyana ESA has the Korou space port, which sometimes in a war scenario can be utilized as a missiles launcher base. And France also is a nuke power.

Simply, Brazil are surrounded by NATO.

Hi IBSA - how are you getting on over there in beautiful brazil - a friend of mine from portugal just migrated there to get married and live the rest of his life there - in a small town on thwe outskirts of Recife
Brazil and south america arfe bautiful - ther might be some areas which need some cultivation but it is way ahead of many other regions of the world
I'd agree wth you that you are in the Backyard ( as you put it ) of not only the usa , but france and britain - basically next door to NATO

point is that the usa ( includes britain ) would want to shelter brazil under their nuke umbrella and they are not gonna be interested to hear your reasons for needing a separate system

Honestly they would love to have brazil as a younger brother - and if i were brazillian ( hey there's no telling, i might buy some property there and go live in that beautiful climate - really a choice of climates in brazil ) i would NOT want taxpayers money to go to armaments when i could instead have the protection of big brother usa - really they arent a bad protector after all ?

i would be more concerned with the quality of my life - how far my Real would go - rather than creating a nuke umbrella when a usa nuke system would be good enough

forget nukes man - enjoy the Carnaval ! :thumb:

 

[roma]

unsc can add india and brazil, but no more.

India's nuke program goes back to declaration of possession via test in april 1974 - brazil has not tested - so if brail is accepted , it would create precedence for pakistan ( tested 1998 ) and N korea ( 2003 ? ) to be included - and who knows Iran might sneak a test in between as they are way ahead of brazil in an arms program ....and if possession is the criterion then that would encourage argentina, Italy , Taiwan etc etc etc

the rationale for unsc permanent membership has got to be other than ( proof of ) possession (eg via testing )

it has got to be based on justification through national stature

on that basis India , being the 2nd largest nation in the world with the possibility in the near future of being in pole position - it would be absolutely ridiculous not to have INdia as a permanent member

i would move for the voluntary withdrawal of the UK as they are themselves are not interested and are happier under the usa umbrella

gradually with time and a more pliable Françoise Hollande perhaps even france can be convinced to play a lesser role

that might leave an open space for brazil to be a permanent member of the unsc as the number of seats would still be a manageable five ( given Uk's voluntary withdrawal )
so the relatively large nation of brazil would be there - BUT THEY ( and indeed others ) Should NOT BE ALLOWED TO DEVELOP A NUKE ARSENAL - and thus not be a nuke state

i.e. permanent membership of the UNSC without nuke status

 

[binayak95]

Re: India now a defacto nuclear "have": Pak,Brazil cry foul

Former president Lula sent Brazilian troops to UN Mission on Haiti (Minustah) in ordering to demonstrate Brazilian capabilities to keep peace in the world.

India has been sending troops to UN peacekeeping missions since our independence. In Congo, our Canberras were the only air support available. Recently 5 Indian soldiers were killed in S Sudan. And yet our contribution has been rarely recognised. Brazil has to do much more in order to get recognition.

 

[IBSA]

Re: India now a defacto nuclear "have": Pak,Brazil cry foul

India has been sending troops to UN peacekeeping missions since our independence. In Congo, our Canberras were the only air support available. Recently 5 Indian soldiers were killed in S Sudan. And yet our contribution has been rarely recognised. Brazil has to do much more in order to get recognition.

I agree, Brazil must to do much more to get a SC/UN seat. India deserve the seat more than Brazil.

However Minustah isn't the first time that Brazil sends its troops to foreign missions. We already did other times. I think the Brazilian fault isn't this, but our lack of attitude.

To contribute to world Peace, a country can't be afraid of point fingers to other countries as being culprit in a conflict. We have the custom of be neutral and don't take party in the issues.

 

[IBSA]

your reasons are not as serious as you project but its absolutely Brazil's opinion in it though.once you develop nuclear weapons it always forces your neighbors to look for such weapon if they can afford.

why to destabilize your own back yard

I dont think this will happen. Our neighbours knows the Brazilian hegemony and accepts it. It isn't as India's neighbours that untrusts her.

To make a nuke we will needs to convince them that a Brazilian nuke would be not only our bomb, but a South American bomb, capable to protect all region against a foreign threat.

The unique country that had disputed South America hegemony with Brazil was Argentina, but it runned in 1970 decade. Today, we are great partners, not rivals. A Brazilian nuke don't instigate Argentina to develops one too, but give her a most powerful ally in her claim on Falklands against UK.

 

[Yusuf]

Perhaps IBSA should give a run down of energy requirements of brazil and its current sources and future requirements.

IBSA is right about US not accepting any other power coming in its way in its own backyard. So Brazil may not get a UNSC seat as well that would rival the US particularly if any issue about its own area comes into play and it has a conflict of interests and ideas with brazil.

That apart, I may not have followed much of Brazilian politics but Lula was the one who got Brazil on the map so to speak but before that and after we never heard of hear anything about Brazil, its diplomacy, its intentions etc. india has been pushing itself around for a long time.

The difference also has to be the strategic importance of India. Its location that is the route for energy and trade shipments. Its role as a perceived counter to China. Brazil is in a peaceful area.

 

[drkrn]

I dont think this will happen. Our neighbours knows the Brazilian hegemony and accepts it. It isn't as India's neighbours that untrusts her.

To make a nuke we will needs to convince them that a Brazilian nuke would be not only our bomb, but a South American bomb, capable to protect all region against a foreign threat.

The unique country that had disputed South America hegemony with Brazil was Argentina, but it runned in 1970 decade. Today, we are great partners, not rivals. A Brazilian nuke don't instigate Argentina to develops one too, but give her a most powerful ally in her claim on Falklands against UK.

That's the same reason what USA have to keep nukes.our nukes will stabilize both American continents,protect Europe from Russian aggression,our friends will be feeling safe...so on.

if that's your response-
1.what makes you think that Latin American nations accept your superiority in the region when some nations like you do not accept USA superiority in this region?
2.even when they have good relations and strong interests with you,your country has not reached yet to a position to influence your neighbors than USA(believe me its a fact)
3.can you guarantee that relations with your neighbors will stay peaceful and friendly for ever. never- even when there is a small difference in an issue with others ,as it is obvious you will win because of many advantages you have with your economy,diplomacy other sides will obviously feel that you win because you have nukes..can you deny it?
do you know why china is against America now??? Geo-politics
4. you have UN-necessarily included India in discussion,but let me say no country believes others that's why you have military.USA spies its own friends

on international stage there are no permanent friends or enemies only personal interests

5.do you really think a Brazilian nuke can be a deterrent against British on Falkland!!! i don't think so.your country diplomats(or any) will ditch Argentina for the west

ONE STRAIGHT QUESTION DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT BRAZIL HAS MORE NEED TO DEVELOP A NUKE THAN CUBA OR VENEZUELA?OR DO YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSONS IN LATIN TO MAKE ONE?
HAD CUBE WANTED TO DEVELOP A NUKE THEY WOULD HAVE DEVELOPED IT LONG TIME AGO WITH HELP OF RUSSIA AS CHINA DEVELOPED IT WITH HELP OF RUSSIA
when small nations like Iran,Nk,Israel can develop nukes so does every one
do you know SA too had a nuclear weapon programme long back(though dropped)

A STRONGER RELATION BETWEEN NATIONS WILL COME WITH MUTUAL TRUST AND UNITED SPIRIT-NOT WEAPONS

apart from making brazil a nation with nuclear weapons and international recognition nukes will hardly bring you any advantage as on now.but you risk many

apart from giving brazil a

 

[IBSA]

That's the same reason what USA have to keep nukes.our nukes will stabilize both American continents,protect Europe from Russian aggression,our friends will be feeling safe...so on.

if that's your response-
1.what makes you think that Latin American nations accept your superiority in the region when some nations like you do not accept USA superiority in this region?

Firstly, I don't said Latin America, but South America. The concept of Latin America is undervaluated in Brazilian diplomacy. Our diplomats thinking more in terms of South America concept. So, the Latin countries of North and Central Americas are outside our interests sphere at first glance.

the reason why they would accept our superiority is their anti-americanism. Same way as India counterweigh China and attracts to her side anti-chinese countries as Vietnam, USA, Japan, Brazil is the only country with the sovereign factors to counterweigh USA in American continent.

2.even when they have good relations and strong interests with you,your country has not reached yet to a position to influence your neighbors than USA(believe me its a fact)

Has not reached yet, which dont excludes the possibility in the future of Brazil to face USA interests with more efficiency. To do it, we needs to develop our capabilities economically, politically, militarily, technologically. And all this will has to be made against USA opposition to our progress.

3.can you guarantee that relations with your neighbors will stay peaceful and friendly for ever.

Brazil has no border issues with his neighbours. Our borders are well delimited and none neighbour has claims on it, nor we have claims in our neighbors territory. And we have a peaceful nature. We never attacked some our neighbour. We aren't a imperialist power nor we have aims to be it some day. Brazil thanks to our cultural softpower (carnival, football, etc.) are a beloved nation in South American, and even Latin América.

never- even when there is a small difference in an issue with others ,as it is obvious you will win because of many advantages you have with your economy,diplomacy other sides will obviously feel that you win because you have nukes..can you deny it?

By small diferences we dont have the custom to dispute with our poorer neighbour. We practise some like a Gujral Doctrine towards them: absolute Peace and unilateral concessions. Examples: After a President Evo Morales' nationalization decree, Bolivia had occupied a PETROBRAS gas refinery. Initially Brazil stood annoyed, but after some rounds of negotiation, we accepted to leave the refinery to Bolívia; other case was Paraguay. President Fernando Lugo wanted Brazil to pay higher prices by paraguayan quota of energy produced in Itaipu binatinal hydroplant. What we did? Paid them.

All this happened without nukes. Why a Brazilian nuke will change our neighbour perception??

It was you that stated "If Brazil makes a nuke bomb, it will change the threat perception of its neighbours". The sicentific obligation belongs to who ones states something. So is you that has to proof what u said, and not I that have to deny it.

do you know why china is against America now??? Geo-politics

Oh really??? I never think it.... Do you know why USA is against Brazil now, and likely, forever???? Geopolitics!

4. you have UN-necessarily included India in discussion,but let me say no country believes others that's why you have military.USA spies its own friends

Thread is about India recognition as a nuke power and Brazil and Pakistan reactions to this. India is part of subject. It dont was me that included her.

5.do you really think a Brazilian nuke can be a deterrent against British on Falkland!!! i don't think so.your country diplomats(or any) will ditch Argentina for the West.

Yes, we will stay beside Argentina. During the 1982 Malvinas War, we, though officially neutrals, are inclined toward Argentine. We even forced a British fighter that entered our air space to landing.

ONE STRAIGHT QUESTION DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT BRAZIL HAS MORE NEED TO DEVELOP A NUKE THAN CUBA OR VENEZUELA?OR DO YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSONS IN LATIN TO MAKE ONE?
HAD CUBE WANTED TO DEVELOP A NUKE THEY WOULD HAVE DEVELOPED IT LONG TIME AGO WITH HELP OF RUSSIA AS CHINA DEVELOPED IT WITH HELP OF RUSSIA

Cuba didnt make a nuke because she was under USSR umbrella during Cold War. Why Cuba should make its own bomb when soviets installed their missiles there in 1962 Missiles Crisis??

when small nations like Iran,Nk,Israel can develop nukes so does every one
do you know SA too had a nuclear weapon programme long back(though dropped)

A STRONGER RELATION BETWEEN NATIONS WILL COME WITH MUTUAL TRUST AND UNITED SPIRIT-NOT WEAPONS

So, go ask USA and Russia and China, India and Pakistan, Iran and Israel to trust each other and disable their nuke weapons instead of to forbid Brazil ambition. If for you USA, Russia, China, etc have the right to untrust and develop nuke weapons, Brazil also has the right to untrust NATO aims in South América/South Atlantic and develop its own nuke weapons to defend itself.

 

[Payeng]

ONE STRAIGHT QUESTION DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT BRAZIL HAS MORE NEED TO DEVELOP A NUKE THAN CUBA OR VENEZUELA?OR DO YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSONS IN LATIN TO MAKE ONE?
HAD CUBE WANTED TO DEVELOP A NUKE THEY WOULD HAVE DEVELOPED IT LONG TIME AGO WITH HELP OF RUSSIA AS CHINA DEVELOPED IT WITH HELP OF RUSSIA

caps`

A STRONGER RELATION BETWEEN NATIONS WILL COME WITH MUTUAL TRUST AND UNITED SPIRIT-NOT WEAPONS

International diplomacy are actually bitches , every thing revolves around interest, it is in the interest of Brazil to have her own nuke capabilities.

 

[roma]

Firstly, I don't said Latin America, but South America. The concept of Latin America is undervaluated in Brazilian diplomacy. Our diplomats thinking more in terms of South America concept. So, the Latin countries of North and Central Americas are outside our interests sphere at first glance.
the reason why they would accept our superiority is their anti-americanism. Same way as India counterweigh China and attracts to her side anti-chinese countries as Vietnam, USA, Japan, Brazil is the only country with the sovereign factors to counterweigh USA in American continent.
Has not reached yet, which dont excludes the possibility in the future of Brazil to face USA interests with more efficiency. To do it, we needs to develop our capabilities economically, politically, militarily, technologically. And all this will has to be made against USA opposition to our progress.
Brazil has no border issues with his neighbours. Our borders are well delimited and none neighbour has claims on it, nor we have claims in our neighbors territory. And we have a peaceful nature. We never attacked some our neighbour. We aren't a imperialist power nor we have aims to be it some day. Brazil thanks to our cultural softpower (carnival, football, etc.) are a beloved nation in South American, and even Latin América.
By small diferences we dont have the custom to dispute with our poorer neighbour. We practise some like a Gujral Doctrine towards them: absolute Peace and unilateral concessions. Examples: After a President Evo Morales' nationalization decree, Bolivia had occupied a PETROBRAS gas refinery. Initially Brazil stood annoyed, but after some rounds of negotiation, we accepted to leave the refinery to Bolívia; other case was Paraguay. President Fernando Lugo wanted Brazil to pay higher prices by paraguayan quota of energy produced in Itaipu binatinal hydroplant. What we did? Paid them.
All this happened without nukes. Why a Brazilian nuke will change our neighbour perception??
It was you that stated "If Brazil makes a nuke bomb, it will change the threat perception of its neighbours". The sicentific obligation belongs to who ones states something. So is you that has to proof what u said, and not I that have to deny it.
Oh really??? I never think it.... Do you know why USA is against Brazil now, and likely, forever???? Geopolitics!
Thread is about India recognition as a nuke power and Brazil and Pakistan reactions to this. India is part of subject. It dont was me that included her.
Yes, we will stay beside Argentina. During the 1982 Malvinas War, we, though officially neutrals, are inclined toward Argentine. We even forced a British fighter that entered our air space to landing.
Cuba didnt make a nuke because she was under USSR umbrella during Cold War. Why Cuba should make its own bomb when soviets installed their missiles there in 1962 Missiles Crisis??
when small nations like Iran,Nk,Israel can develop nukes so does every one
do you know SA too had a nuclear weapon programme long back(though dropped)
So, go ask USA and Russia and China, India and Pakistan, Iran and Israel to trust each other and disable their nuke weapons instead of to forbid Brazil ambition. If for you USA, Russia, China, etc have the right to untrust and develop nuke weapons, Brazil also has the right to untrust NATO aims in South América/South Atlantic and develop its own nuke weapons to defend itself.

Hi IBSA - my following comments might not be directly relevant to your post above so im using the reply facility to get your attention
firstly my opinion and i suppose there would be other who agree is tghat for brazil to be a great country - does not necessarily have to be a nuke weapons state - in fact i would have preferred that india did not have nuke weapons but we were forced into the system by china - if they did not possess nuke weapons then i think india would have also restrained herself

brasil and all of south america has a unique opportunity to be nuclear -free ....brasil already has an up and coming space program , Lula and now his progeny Dilma have i public committed themselves to the economic betterment of the people - i recall Lula having said 3 meals a day even for the poorest
to live in a nuke-free region is an unparalled opportunity - look a japan and what they haev suffered from their nuke accidents

brasil has a beautiful sunnny atmospehere and a friendly people surrounded by aother south american people who's disposition is not that different
why spoil it all with nukes ?
brasil can be a permanent member of the Unsc without nukes - they will still be respected as they are undoubtedly the largest nation adn economy in their region and the idea of membership of unsc is to have a responsible rep from each region and brasil is not going to be doubted as the rep for s america

on the contrary once brasil goes for nukes, argentina will want to do likewise , chile might be next
but if brasil avoids the nuke and Argentina goes for it , they will be sanctioned like crazy by everyone and i dont think they would want to go through that ?

fact of the matter is that the world is led by the usa at the moment and for the next few decades will be so ......but even if that changes the other possible leading countries eg russia china european unio ( remotely ) are fulll to the brim of nuke rpoliferation adn new nuke powers - in fact they are doing All they can to de-nuuke north korea, if possible even paksistan ) and will react like heck if iran goes forward

no more nuke countries is the heavily endorsed mantra all over the world
brasil will really make a name for themselves if they try to buck this trend

 

[tramp]

I dont think this will happen. Our neighbours knows the Brazilian hegemony and accepts it. It isn't as India's neighbours that untrusts her.

To make a nuke we will needs to convince them that a Brazilian nuke would be not only our bomb, but a South American bomb, capable to protect all region against a foreign threat.

The unique country that had disputed South America hegemony with Brazil was Argentina, but it runned in 1970 decade. Today, we are great partners, not rivals. A Brazilian nuke don't instigate Argentina to develops one too, but give her a most powerful ally in her claim on Falklands against UK.

Pakistan had in the initial days tried to pull the wool over a lot of countries calling their bomb Islamic bomb. They may be right too... as Saudis are supposed to have funded its development as an insurance against Israel.

 

[drkrn]

today Iran is on its way to make its nuclear bomb.seeing this S.A said that it has to go nuclear too if Iran develops one.

once you develop nuclear weapon there is no going back.your strategic advantage lies only till you have a nuclear weapon with all countries around you do not.when they posses one its a tie

 

[tramp]

today Iran is on its way to make its nuclear bomb.seeing this S.A said that it has to go nuclear too if Iran develops one.

once you develop nuclear weapon there is no going back.your strategic advantage lies only till you have a nuclear weapon with all countries around you do not.when they posses one its a tie

Saudis already have the bomb. They have a handle on Pakistan's bomb and will be able to use it anytime they want.

 

[drkrn]

Saudis already have the bomb. They have a handle on Pakistan's bomb and will be able to use it anytime they want.

if saudi's have a nuclear weapon they will be ready for a war on Iran by supporting Israel.
no way America wishes to have a nuclear state in oil rich Arab land.at least as on for now