India now a defacto nuclear 'have' - Pakistan, Brazil cry foul

Discussion in 'Strategic Forces' started by Yusuf, Apr 18, 2013.

  1. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    The reactions from Pakistan and Brazil make it clear that as India seeks to enter the export control regimes it must reckon with the aspirations of many countries
    India appears to have successfully climbed into the category of a nuclear “have,” overcoming the divisions enshrined in the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and enforced fervently by its adherents. Although not publicly acknowledged, India’s entry is the de facto reality and irreversible.

    Nowhere was this more evident than at the recent Carnegie International Nuclear Policy Conference (April 8-9, 2013, at the Ronald Reagan Building International Trade Center, Washington D.C.) attended by more than 800 experts from around the world. Being the premier event of all things nuclear, the forum has long been the bastion of what Indian policymakers like to call the “nuclear ayatollahs” — those who obsessively pursue the NPT’s non-proliferation goals to the exclusion of almost everything else, especially disarmament.

    The global nuclear community now treats India as one of the established nuclear weapons powers — however grudgingly — for matters of policy and debate. What little academic and intellectual opposition remains is largely normative. The debate has moved from the wisdom of granting India an exception via the India-U.S. civil nuclear agreement to whether India should be included in the four nuclear export control regimes where it wants membership.

    But India’s acceptance in the established nuclear order has also triggered resentment — chiefly in Pakistan but more curiously in Brazil, India’s south-south partner in the new game-changing alignments such as BRICS and IBSA.

    The old paradigms used to single out India — the sharp focus on proliferation — are still in vogue but were rarely invoked against New Delhi. They were applied exclusively to North Korea and Iran. Pyongyang’s daily threats, ratcheting up tensions in the peninsula ensured rapt attention at the conference. North Korea managed to obscure even Iran at times, which was generally seen as a rational actor eliciting various levels of sympathy.

    This is not to say that India avoided criticism. But it largely had to do with the way India’s exceptional status had been accepted. Many felt that India had pulled a fast one on the U.S. but that things had now gone too far to retreat. Most of the talk was on how to make India accept its new role as a nuclear “have” more decisively and shed its current schizophrenic behaviour of acting like a “have not.”

    Western analysts find India’s attitude self-defeating. India votes against Iran and with the West at the International Atomic Energy Agency but grudgingly. Yet it expects to get into the four regimes that control nuclear exports — the Nuclear Suppliers Group, the Missile Technology Control Regime, the Australia Group and the Wassenaar Arrangement. India’s reluctance on the Iranian case gives the impression that it doesn’t want to keep errant countries out. These impressions can easily be whipped into campaigns by nuclear hardliners.

    Pakistan’s case

    Unsurprisingly, India’s new status rankles Pakistan no end. Its team of more than 20 official and quasi official spokespersons raised objections against India in almost every panel at the conference. They demanded parity and a nuclear deal similar to the one the U.S. pushed through for India. Maleeha Lodhi, a former Pakistani Ambassador, said if Pakistan doesn’t get “equal treatment,” it would continue building nuclear stockpiles — a move that already has the nuclear community on edge.

    Pakistan’s gripe is understandable — to a degree. Like India, it never signed the NPT and technically breached no undertaking by going nuclear. But its record on non-proliferation has been bad. The A.Q. Khan affair and his nuclear supply lines are and will remain a blot. So when Pakistani delegates tried to find analogies between their dilemma and every extant nuclear problem, they got a polite silence.

    When M.J. Chung, a prominent member of South Korea’s National Assembly, provocatively advocated his country’s right to leave the NPT and build bombs in response to North Korean threats, a Pakistani delegate promptly equated India’s behaviour with North Korea’s. She demanded to know why South Korea wasn’t sympathetic to Pakistan’s case since her country had also tested the nuclear bomb in reaction to India.

    When an Iranian attendee asked a panel why Iran was being targeted when, in fact, a Talibanized Pakistan was the main nuclear threat, a Pakistani countered that Maoists were a “bigger threat” to Indian nuclear reactors than al-Qaeda and Taliban were to Pakistani installations. The effect was often comical, sparking sniggers. If the idea was to drag India through the mud, no matter how disingenuous the argument, it failed. It only helped relegate Pakistan further to the margins.

    Brazil’s discontent

    Brazil’s rancour against India is and should be more worrying. It is also rooted in the Obama Administration’s purported “unequal treatment” of Brazil and India. Matias Spektor from Brazil’s top think tank, Fundação Getulio Vargas, recalled his country’s bitter disappointment at not getting President Barack Obama’s endorsement for a permanent seat in the U.N. Security Council as India did.

    Many Brazilians wrongly concluded it was because India had nuclear weapons and Brazil did not. They also feel India is being actively encouraged to project its power globally while Brazil draws criticism. The discontent has created a minority opinion in favour of Brazil going nuclear.

    As India prepares to argue its case for entering the export control regimes, it will find that the new “status” will bring contentious new issues, which will demand careful consideration.

    http://m.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed...le4627668.ece/?maneref=http://t.co/WLA0rZa6mM
     
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  3. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Re: India now a defacto nuclear "have": Pak,Brazil cry foul


    Pakistan's case is meanigless and most of the world could care less.

    Brazil's case is interesting:

    It seems Obama is trying to create a rift in the BRIC's? especially after talk of a BRIC version of the world bank?

    Brazil using the opportunity to go nuclear themselves? especially with the vast oil reserves in South Atlantic and
    past UK-argentine falkland war and current hostility?

    India being a defacto power is not a suprise this was done during the Bush nuclear deal many years ago.

    Brazil should be happy if India moves up in the ranks it would mean Brazil will too soon.
     
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  4. tramp

    tramp Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: India now a defacto nuclear "have": Pak,Brazil cry foul

    Interesting writeup.
     
  5. binayak95

    binayak95 Regular Member

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    Re: India now a defacto nuclear "have": Pak,Brazil cry foul

    Brazil's discontentment is understandable, they are the most powerful country in South America and it deserves permanent membership since there is no representation among the Permanent members from South America.

    But as for Pakistan,"maoists" :rofl::rofl::pound::pound:
     
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  6. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Re: India now a defacto nuclear "have": Pak,Brazil cry foul

    This could be easily resolved by India and Brazil agreeing to support each other in their membership efforts.
    India would gain by getting Latin American support and Brazil would gain be getting NAM and African nation support.
     
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  7. angeldude13

    angeldude13 Lestat De Lioncourt Senior Member

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    Re: India now a defacto nuclear "have": Pak,Brazil cry foul

    why pakhana landers are so obsessed with india???

    this is kind of act is a childish act from pakhana side
     
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  8. binayak95

    binayak95 Regular Member

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    Re: India now a defacto nuclear "have": Pak,Brazil cry foul

    This is the stuff in which BRICS can come into its own. We should engage with them and assure our support for Permanent Status else China will jump the gun and beat us to it if they haven't done it already!!!
     
  9. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Re: India now a defacto nuclear "have": Pak,Brazil cry foul

    Brazil is a large economy and a major player in many natural resources. I think this is more
    symbolic for Brazilians to be the first Latin American nation to be in UNSC?
     
  10. sorcerer

    sorcerer Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: India now a defacto nuclear "have": Pak,Brazil cry foul

    :rofl:
    Their forum is the training ground for future Pakistan Diplomats.

    Musings from the Land of Pure
     
  11. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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  12. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Re: India now a defacto nuclear "have": Pak,Brazil cry foul

    De-hyphenation complete now. Its many among us who keep facepalming and putting the hyphen back and comparing India with Pak
     
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  13. IBSA

    IBSA Regular Member

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    American uneven treatment for Brazil and India is due to geopolitical reasons.

    We are located in the American strategic interests zone. South America is a USA's backyard, so USA will never support the rise of a new power here, coz it would be a concurrent to him. Even without veto, Brazil surely would vote against USA wars in SC/UN.

    India in other hand is located away of American strategic interests zone, so isn't a concurrent at first glance. At same time, USA needs of India to encircle China, its great rival in this century.

    Thus, it are obvious the American reasons to prefer India entrance in SC/UN instead of that Brazil.
     
  14. Known_Unknown

    Known_Unknown Devil's Advocate Stars and Ambassadors

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    Strength respects Strength. Without the bomb and a full fledged nuclear triad, a country however economically, culturally or militarily (in conventional terms) strong will always find itself either ignored or subordinated under the "nuclear umbrella" of another power.
     
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  15. drkrn

    drkrn Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: India now a defacto nuclear "have": Pak,Brazil cry foul

    Brazil is bigger than India,with more oil reserves,and an member of brics and still most of the countries in the west+America are not giving them as importance as India or support to get permanent seat in security council

    you really can not compare both nations as India's rise is more or less a counter weight to china while that of Brazil is not..i hardly see any importance or necessity for Brazil to develop nuclear weapons except if they want to have nuclear weapons to become a permanent member in security counsel
     
  16. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    one of the few times i would ask for a re-think ...brazil like many other south american nations is one that goes against US policy for the sake of going against , for the sake of telling the usa that they are an independent nation , whereas india has always display our sovereignty in a very much more intelligent way , a way that has won the respect and admiration of the usa even if by gradual process with the patient passing of time .....i hope we are not gonna give all that away for some nebulous friendship with a nation that is still finding its way around and chaotic in the meanwhile, a nation which doesnt educate any of our younger men an women wheres the usa gives a hundred thousand of them a tremendous education together with scholarships - besides being the most advanced nation in the world
    no , sorry , brazil just inst worth antagonising the usa

    india paid the price of 34 years of sanctions by the usa for having legitimate reasons for needing nuclear protection , it took the usa 34 years to come to their senses and be reasonable about india needing the bomb when china was developing their arsenal to be larger and larger all the while .... brasil has no china border to protect against , there is no nuke threat to brazil - they do not deserve a nuke arsenal and as such do not need to aspire to any great role in the unsc - so there's nothing surprising that the world bodies do not accord brazil the same status as india
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2013
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  17. Tianshan

    Tianshan Regular Member

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    unsc can add india and brazil, but no more.
     
  18. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    Just wait Pakistanis inventing new conspiracy stories about India's proliferation record.

    Even after getting nuclear deal from China the way they cry for American blessings one must tell China that your goodies are not worth standards they desire.
     
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  19. IBSA

    IBSA Regular Member

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    Re: India now a defacto nuclear "have": Pak,Brazil cry foul


    We are already the first in Latin America in GDP - sometimes threatened by Mexico when oil prices are high - but we desire more international projection. We want to become more than a regional power. for this, we aspire to SC/UN. Former president Lula sent Brazilian troops to UN Mission on Haiti (Minustah) in ordering to demonstrate Brazilian capabilities to keep peace in the world.

    To become a world power also will be symbolic for us, coz this means our liberation of USA hands.
     
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  20. IBSA

    IBSA Regular Member

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    I disagree that Brazil dont needs nuke weapons. We can be not bordering china, but this don't means we are not surrounded by nuke powers. As I said South America is USA backyards, so Brazil's ascension will inevitably shock itself with US interests, and USA is a nuke power. USA till has reactived their 4th Fleet, responsible by policing the South Atlantic.

    There are also British presence throughout islands in South Atlantic Ocean, which is a zone that Brazil considers as their sphere. And UK are a nuke power too.

    Finally, we border France through the French Guyana, an oversea french province. In French Guyana ESA has the Korou space port, which sometimes in a war scenario can be utilized as a missiles launcher base. And France also is a nuke power.

    Simply, Brazil are surrounded by NATO.

    [​IMG]
     
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  21. drkrn

    drkrn Senior Member Senior Member

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    your reasons are not as serious as you project but its absolutely Brazil's opinion in it though.once you develop nuclear weapons it always forces your neighbors to look for such weapon if they can afford.

    why to destabilize your own back yard
     
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