India-Israel Joint Airforce Exercises?

tprop988

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@ace009:
Anyways regarding any help by Iran to Pakistan before '79 - for God's sake, they were allies, members of CENTO (Central Treaty Organisation), an US led alliance. They were friends during that time and Indo-Iranian relations warmed only after '79 following the Iranian Revolution and Iran's withdrawal from CENTO. Still 1979 - 2005 is a very long time. Its 26 years of Close Relationship.
 

ace009

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@ace009:
Anyways regarding any help by Iran to Pakistan before '79 - for God's sake, they were allies, members of CENTO (Central Treaty Organisation), an US led alliance. They were friends during that time and Indo-Iranian relations warmed only after '79 following the Iranian Revolution and Iran's withdrawal from CENTO. Still 1979 - 2005 is a very long time. Its 26 years of Close Relationship.
Communal person? WTF? You live in India - probably in a deep well - look up - here is a world outside it. There, people think beyond "Hindu" and "Muslim" identities, which you may not be able to understand from your narrow perspective. What are you? A member of SIMI?
Listen Mr "Secular" person - I am an atheist - Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Sikhism, all are about the same to me - meaningless drivel from a bygone era, which mindless drones are made to believe in so that they can be controlled by the smart and the greedy leaders. So, I think I am MORE secular than most of you so called seculars in India.
I work with a Hindu, Christians, Jews, Muslims and a Buddhist. I have excellent personal relation with them and I have NO problem with any of their non-religious views. I just don't honor their religious superstitions (beliefs) - and I think it is a stronger "secularism" than you can ever imagine.

As for Pakistan getting F-16s from Iran - that was a slip on my part - which I corrected later - do read it up before you care to drool over your keyboard. CENTO and Pakistan and Iran being allies before 1979 - agreed.
And "conspiracy theories"? Iran Did buy nuclear weapon technologies from Pakistan. You may not believe it because of your "secular" beliefs - here's some more "news" for you ...

Nuclear Program in Iran Tied To Pakistan
Complex Network Acquired Technology and Blueprints

By Joby Warrick
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, December 21, 2003; Page A01
VIENNA -- Evidence discovered in a probe of Iran's secret nuclear program points overwhelmingly to Pakistan as the source of crucial technology that put Iran on a fast track toward becoming a nuclear weapons power, according to U.S. and European officials familiar with the investigation.

The serious nature of the discoveries prompted a decision by Pakistan two weeks ago to detain three of its top nuclear scientists for several days of questioning, with U.S. intelligence experts allowed to assist, the officials said. The scientists have not been charged with any crime, and Pakistan continues to insist that it never wittingly provided nuclear assistance to Iran or anyone else.



Iran has built a reactor at the headquarters of its Atomic Energy Organization. The country says its program is for peaceful purposes. (Vahid Salemi -- AP)
Documents provided by Iran to U.N. nuclear inspectors since early November have exposed the outlines of a vast, secret procurement network that successfully acquired thousands of sensitive parts and tools from numerous countries over a 17-year period. While Iran has not directly identified Pakistan as a supplier, Pakistani individuals and companies are strongly implicated as sources of key blueprints, technical guidance and equipment for a pilot uranium-enrichment plant that was first exposed by Iranian dissidents 18 months ago, government officials and independent weapons experts said.

While American presidents since Ronald Reagan worried that Iran might seek nuclear weapons, U.S. and allied intelligence agencies were unable to halt Iran's most significant nuclear acquisitions, or even to spot a major nuclear facility under construction until it was essentially completed.

Although the alleged transfers occurred years ago, suggestions of Pakistani aid to Iran's nuclear program have further complicated the relationship between the United States and Pakistan, a key ally in the war against terrorism.
washingtonpost.com: Nuclear Program in Iran Tied To Pakistan
Iran 'tried to buy nuclear weapons from Pakistan' - Telegraph
Pakistan May Investigate Scientist's Ties to Iran's Nuclear Program - NYTimes.com

Since 1979

After the Iranian Revolution, Iran withdrew from CENTO and dissociated itself from US-friendly countries such as Pakistan. Despite close ties under the Shah, Pakistan was among the first countries to recognize the new Iranian government, and attempted to rebuild ties.
In the 1980s both Pakistan and Iran opposed the Soviet occupation in Afghanistan and coordinated their covert support for the Afghan mujahideen.

During the 1990s, their relations were dominated by the Shiite factor, nuclearization, the Taliban in Afghanistan, and Iran's material support of Shiite paramilitary organizations in Pakistan.
Iran–Pakistan relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now, your assertion about Iran's internal affairs - remember East Pakistan (Bangladesh)? Remember Sri Lanka? heck - Nepal a few years back when Maoists were on the rampage there? A little farther away, remember Maldives? South Africa during apartheid? I can go on and on about all the other countries where India has taken a stance over their "internal affairs". But you know what? Since Iran is an Islamic republic, "secular" India should never risk any confrontation with it - right? After all, if India confronts a Muslim nation, it will mean India is a "Hindu" nation - right? D*mbass ...

About the "26 years" of close rlationship - firstly, in politics there is nothing called a "close friend" - especially if that close friend tries to blackmail you. Iran is as much India's friend as it is Pakistan's friend. Iran leaving CENTO was true - but that did not make them a friend of India's. During the whole of Iran-Iraq war, India NEVER supported Iran. Pakistan on the other hand sold weapons and ammo to BOTH sides.


Now, before you open your so-called Secular mind and start drooling drivel on the forum, get out from the well you live in, see the world and try to learn more than the BS spouted by Indian media.
 
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agentperry

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it will be good but both of the countries are undertaking projects which are usefull for both. joint exercise is good thing but it involves more ceremonial things which may irk many other players both countries play with. israel and russia are not good friends and providing them the open access to migs and sukhois will be protested. also it will irk middle east so no good having it. but many things are going behind the curtain that i can say. there are unconfirmed reports that F-16 was flying from indian base in J&K just after kargilwar.
 

tprop988

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Communal person? WTF? You live in India - probably in a deep well - look up - here is a world outside it. There, people think beyond "Hindu" and "Muslim" identities, which you may not be able to understand from your narrow perspective. What are you? A member of SIMI?
Listen Mr "Secular" person - I am an atheist - Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Sikhism, all are about the same to me - meaningless drivel from a bygone era, which mindless drones are made to believe in so that they can be controlled by the smart and the greedy leaders. So, I think I am MORE secular than most of you so called seculars in India.
I work with a Hindu, Christians, Jews, Muslims and a Buddhist. I have excellent personal relation with them and I have NO problem with any of their non-religious views. I just don't honor their religious superstitions (beliefs) - and I think it is a stronger "secularism" than you can ever imagine.

As for Pakistan getting F-16s from Iran - that was a slip on my part - which I corrected later - do read it up before you care to drool over your keyboard. CENTO and Pakistan and Iran being allies before 1979 - agreed.
And "conspiracy theories"? Iran Did buy nuclear weapon technologies from Pakistan. You may not believe it because of your "secular" beliefs - here's some more "news" for you ...



washingtonpost.com: Nuclear Program in Iran Tied To Pakistan
Iran 'tried to buy nuclear weapons from Pakistan' - Telegraph
Pakistan May Investigate Scientist's Ties to Iran's Nuclear Program - NYTimes.com


Iran–Pakistan relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now, your assertion about Iran's internal affairs - remember East Pakistan (Bangladesh)? Remember Sri Lanka? heck - Nepal a few years back when Maoists were on the rampage there? A little farther away, remember Maldives? South Africa during apartheid? I can go on and on about all the other countries where India has taken a stance over their "internal affairs". But you know what? Since Iran is an Islamic republic, "secular" India should never risk any confrontation with it - right? After all, if India confronts a Muslim nation, it will mean India is a "Hindu" nation - right? D*mbass ...

About the "26 years" of close rlationship - firstly, in politics there is nothing called a "close friend" - especially if that close friend tries to blackmail you. Iran is as much India's friend as it is Pakistan's friend. Iran leaving CENTO was true - but that did not make them a friend of India's. During the whole of Iran-Iraq war, India NEVER supported Iran. Pakistan on the other hand sold weapons and ammo to BOTH sides.


Now, before you open your so-called Secular mind and start drooling drivel on the forum, get out from the well you live in, see the world and try to learn more than the BS spouted by Indian media.
Are you high on grass ?? :pound: Cant you just understand what the US wants from Iran. OIL.
Who conducted the investigations? The US. Whose report it was: someone from US. As you may know, the US has been sprouting numerous allegations to the Gulf countries that don't listen to them. Take an example: Iraq. The Iraq war in 2003 was a direct fallout of US reports that Iraq was harbouring and developing Weapons of Mass Destruction. Well did the UN inspections post war find anything. No. So stop dancing to the tunes of the US. The US, being the only superpower in this unipolar environment expects all oil rich nations to bow down to their dictates. Anyone acting on their own, they surround them with numerous baseless allegations in preparation for an imminent invasion such that they might install a puppet regime in these countries who shall bow down to all of their dictates. Well even if Iran has tried to make Nuclear weapons and for in that case any nation threatened by powers far overwhelming then theirs, tell me dude, arent we doing the same thing? Who has the biggest weapons build up (including WMD) in this world? The answer looms right in front of you. The US. Cuba is the only nation to have withstood the US since its inception. The result: sanctions. Ever heard of the Bay of Pigs invasion? The CIA supported the Cuban exiles in a bid to upstage the Fidel Castro government. What did the US do in Vietnam? What was their mistake? They dint bow down to the US. Again, you have heard of Sept. 11, 2001; ever heard of Sept. 11, 1973 ? The Chilean Coup. When the world's first democratically elected socialist government was overthrown in a coup organised by the Chilean Military and endorsed by the United States through their CIA. Why? Well they dint support the US policies for the region. After the coup Pinochet (their military junta leader) established a military dictatorship that ruled Chile until 1990 and which was marked by severe human rights violations. Where did the US go then? They indirectly supported this government since they endorsed US policies for the region. Ever heard of Ernesto Che Guevara?? A revolutionary icon for all socialist governments. Why was he executed in Bolivia? Just because he was one man who stood against the US imperialism and hegemony in the third world nations. The US has a long history of hegemonistic policies against the third world nations. And people like you run after the vague, unreliastic images of development projected by them. Our Nuclear programme was endorsed in order to counter the Chinese threat. So are we wrong? How can you just project that even if Iran develop nukes they will just hurl it at the Israelis in the first opportunity they get? Every nation has right to defend themselves. So stop lecturing against Iran. Its the US imperialist policies which we should oppose instead of blindly supporting them. Their reports against nations like Iran, Cuba, North Korea, etc. are always fabricated such that they can projected a false image to the world. The IMF, the World Bank even the UN all are nothing but mere tools of promoting the US imperialism and hegemony. Mikhail Gorbachev allowed the former Soviet Union to break up. What did the US do? Award him with Nobel Peace Prize for that. (Gorbachev's attempts at reform as well as summit conferences with United States
President Ronald Reagan and his reorientation of Soviet strategic aims contributed to the end of the Cold War, ended the political supremacy of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU), and led to the dissolution of the Soviet Union. For these efforts, he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1990 ; en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Gorbachev). Stop blindly following the US projection of "India Rising". Stop supporting the US. They are the most selfish, unethical government on this planet. They will someday do the same thing to us.
 
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Godless-Kafir

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Listen first tell me what has India done. It has disregarded years of close ties with Iran in order to get close with the US which has for long been using third world nations to fulfill their selfish motives. India has banned the export of any materials that might help Iran in pursuing its nuclear programme in order to conform with the UN Sanctions. Come on now, its an open secret that the UN dances to the tune of the US on any issues. Why?? Isnt India doing the same thing? Didnt the other western powers do the same thing during cold war to counter the Soviet threat? Iran is surrounded by hostile neighbours along with an imminent US invasion on their heads. Isnt India doing the same thing to counter the Chinese threat? Its an open secret that India's nuclear programme was China specific. So you think that Iran doesnt have the right to defend themselves in the event of any hostilities. Tell me why is India doing this thing with someone who has long supported us in the Kashmir issue and all international issues. India is getting carried away to the illusion projected by the west of "India Rising". Try to answer that and then say such things about Iran. So its rightly justified that after being back stabbed by an old friend, Iran will obviously move closer to Pakistan.

India never denied the Holocaust and called of the complete destruction of Israel. Irans only anger towards the US is that its an non-muslim nation, what other reason is there? Till the 70s Iran was close to the US and a big ally till the fundamentalists took over. Is it even a good reason to hate the US just because they are not muslim?

Iran getting nuclear weapons is an insane idea, they have already called for the complete destruction of Israel. In that light countries like Iran cant be trusted with a nuclear weapon.

The US again exploits the poor just as the rich exploit the poor in this country, its not the US job to fix global poverty. Its the thugs in power in their own respective nations who keep the poor as poor.

I agree US is not perfect and their captalism has made the tribal man as a poor man but the US is not to be blamed for what Iran is.

The whole point is Iran has shown anger when US and India have grown closer in the past.
 
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tprop988

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As acee009 said, just stop your rumbling.

India never denied the Holocaust and called of the complete destruction of Israel. Irans only anger towards the US is that its an non-muslim nation, what other reason is there? Till the 70s Iran was close to the US and a big ally till the fundamentalists took over. Is it even a good reason to hate the US just because they are not muslim?

The US again exploits the poor just as the rich exploit the poor in this country, its not the US job to fix global poverty. Its the thugs in power in their own respective nations who keep the poor as poor.

I agree US is not perfect and their captalism has made the tribal man as a poor man but the US is not to be blamed for what Iran is.
Its quite right that its not the US responsibility to eradicate global poverty but its absolutely not their right to promote it. What they have done is promote selfish capitalist governments in the world who act according to the whims of their multinational companies. Yes our economy is the second fastest rising economy in this world (projected at 9%). But is it really rising for the common man? Uncontrollable inflation, rising energy costs. Is this what we call "India Rising"? This is what the opening of our economy has done to us. And when did this economic reforms start taking place - 1991. After the break up of the Soviet Union in order to build relationship with the imperialist US. Our India is rising but only for the elite as the Tatas, the Birlas and the Ambanis. Still 40% of our 1 billion population lies below poverty line. What have we gained bridging such a partnership with the US. Yes the US is very good for their own nation. But they have no regards for other nations. They are the most selfish people on this planet. We have to bow down to their policies or else we will be humbled by them. So you are advocating that we need to bow down to their dictates. Dont we have any independent foriegn policy by which we get to decide on our own whom we want to befriend and whom we want to do business with. Where is our soveriegnity? This is not about Iran. This is about us. This about our Indian foriegn policy being enslaved by the US. So what you want is the Indian government being reduced to a puppet government of the US. We dont get to pick our foriegn relationships. The US will decide and we will oblige. We wont decide our foriegn policy. Their multinationals will decide for us. If this is what you call "India Rising" then God help us.
 
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tprop988

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@Godless-kafir: And what do we hindus do? Any terrorist attack and we blame muslims. Ya its quite right that most of the terrorists are radical Islamic groups but why are we so narrow minded that we blame their community. What did the hindu radicals do? RSS - they killed Mahatma Gandhi. Babri Masjid,burning of Christian Missionaries in Orissa by Bajrang Dal. We, my friend are on the same plate. First we need to rectify our own society, then we need to start talking about the internal affairs of other countries. Why do anti-national forces like the ISI get a chance of sabotaging our country by using our own society? Its because of this attitude that we have of blaming a whole society,learning to hate them just because some unscruplous elements did some mischief.
 
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Godless-Kafir

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Its quite right that its not the US responsibility to eradicate global poverty but its absolutely not their right to promote it. What they have done is promote selfish capitalist governments in the world who act according to the whims of their multinational companies. Yes our economy is the second fastest rising economy in this world (projected at 9%). But is it really rising for the common man? Uncontrollable inflation, rising energy costs. Is this what we call "India Rising"? This is what the opening of our economy has done to us. And when did this economic reforms start taking place - 1991. After the break up of the Soviet Union in order to build relationship with the imperialist US. Our India is rising but only for the elite as the Tatas, the Birlas and the Ambanis. Still 40% of our 1 billion population lies below poverty line. What have we gained bridging such a partnership with the US. Yes the US is very good for their own nation. But they have no regards for other nations. They are the most selfish people on this planet. We have to bow down to their policies or else we will be humbled by them. So you are advocating that we need to bow down to their dictates. Dont we have any independent foriegn policy by which we get to decide on our own whom we want to befriend and whom we want to do business with. Where is our soveriegnity? This is not about Iran. This is about us. This about our Indian foriegn policy being enslaved by the US. So what you want is the Indian government being reduced to a puppet government of the US. We dont get to pick our foriegn relationships. The US will decide and we will oblige. We wont decide our foriegn policy. Their multinationals will decide for us. If this is what you call "India Rising" then God help us.
Your completely derailing the topic. This is not about capitalism or communalism, if you want to discuss about capitalism start a new thread. This is about Israel and India conducting Joint-Ex that has not happened still because we are threatened by many factors, of which Iran is one. If your going to deny Iran never took offense to us moving closer to US or Israel against proof then there is nothing to discuss.

We should not have to be hostage to anyone which includes US or Iran or local Muslim population who may find it wrong to do such things. That is the point. Today moving closer to the US is beneficial to us then we should go ahead and do it that is only in terms of getting technology to help solve the poverty issue. To blindly say if we become close to US we will lose our Foreign policy independence is born out of British colonial era fear.

We dont need to put all our eggs in one basket be it with Iran,US,Israel,Russia or Europe. That is the only way to keep an independent FP. In that Context i said Joint-EX dont take place because of various reason one of them being Iran.
 
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Godless-Kafir

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@Godless-kafir: And what do we hindus do? Any terrorist attack and we blame muslims. Ya its quite right that most of the terrorists are radical Islamic groups but why are we so narrow minded that we blame their community. What did the hindu radicals do? RSS - they killed Mahatma Gandhi. Babri Masjid,burning of Christian Missionaries in Orissa by Bajrang Dal. We, my friend are on the same plate. First we need to rectify our own society, then we need to start talking about the internal affairs of other countries. Why do anti-national forces like the ISI get a chance of sabotaging our country by using our own society? Its because of this attitude that we have of blaming a whole society,learning to hate them just because some unscruplous elements did some mischief.
This is a complete OT again.

Either way you should realize that the idea of nationality is just glorified tribalism. Every nation exists because an amalgamated majority identifies with itself, be it the White Christians of US, Shias of Iran, Hans of China, or Hindus of India. If you look up CIA fact book or Wikipeda on each country you will see an 80% or 90% majority of one group, that majority is what makes a Nation. In that sense weather you like it or not India is set up on an Hindu majority based secularism. It is a Hindus nation and that is why it exists or was created. I am an Atheist and i dislike all religions or Gods i would very happily see Hinduisms get destroyed but not by Christian Missionaries or Islamic fundamentalists. To break up the fabric of majority has SERIOUS consequences which will lead to the destruction of India. By converting them with promises like the Missionaries do or over populate like the Mullas ask are all issues i am opposed to. Loss of Majority identity equals end of Nation...Period. If i raise my voice against both these monsters and i look like a Communal entity then your right, i am communal forgetting the fact i dont support Hinduisms either.
 
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tprop988

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Your completely derailing the topic. This is not about capitalism or communalism, if you want to discuss about capitalism start a new thread. This is about Israel and India conducting Joint-Ex that has not happened still because we are threatened by many factors, of which Iran is one. If your going to deny Iran never took offense to us moving closer to US or Israel against proof then there is nothing to discuss.

We should not have to be hostage to anyone which includes US or Iran or local Muslim population who may find it wrong to do such things. That is the point. Today moving closer to the US is beneficial to us then we should go ahead and do it that is only in terms of getting technology to help solve the poverty issue. To blindly say if we become close to US we will lose our Foreign policy independence is born out of British colonial era fear.

We dont need to put all our eggs in one basket be it with Iran,US,Israel,Russia or Europe. That is the only way to keep an independent FP. In that Context i said Joint-EX dont take place because of various reason one of them being Iran.
Growing closer to the US is harming us. You believe it or not but it is the truth. I dont have anything else to discuss on this.
And regarding having Joint Exercises with Israel, well if Iran has problems with it then fuck Iran. Our Foriegn Policy should remain independent. India has indeed a lot to gain from such exercises since we will be learning a lot about the F-16 Block 52s that Pakistan is acquiring right now. The Israeli Air Force boasts of some of the best and most professional pilots in this world. Learning their tactics will indeed help our pilot training scenario which is right now in a lot of disarray. India has one of the most potent air to air platforms in this world (the SU-30MKI) but our pilots are a lot inferior to many professional Air Forces in this world. What our aces learn there will be reflected in our pilot training environment. Israel is one India's closest friends of late in the developing world. We should indeed utilise this opportunity to get all the gains from such a relationship.
Regarding the Indo-Iranian relations, Iran is more opposed to India speaking against the Iran regarding WMD issues according to the US dictates. India should try to utilise the growing relationship with the US but maintain a independent posture regarding international issues and not dance to the tune of the US like some of the Gulf Nations.
 

tprop988

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This is a complete OT again.

Either way you should realize that the idea of nationality is just glorified tribalism. Every nation exists because an amalgamated majority identifies with itself, be it the White Christians of US, Shias of Iran, Hans of China, or Hindus of India. If you look up CIA fact book or Wikipeda on each country you will see an 80% or 90% majority of one group, that majority is what makes a Nation. In that sense weather you like it or not India is set up on an Hindu majority based secularism. It is a Hindus nation and that is why it exists or was created. I am an Atheist and i dislike all religions or Gods i would very happily see Hinduisms get destroyed but not by Christian Missionaries or Islamic fundamentalists. To break up the fabric of majority has SERIOUS consequences which will lead to the destruction of India. By converting them with promises like the Missionaries do or over populate like the Mullas ask are all issues i am opposed to. Loss of Majority identity equals end of Nation...Period. If i raise my voice against both these monsters and i look like a Communal entity then your right, i am communal forgetting the fact i dont support Hinduisms either.
You don't have to be an athiest to support secularism. Tolerance is what secularism demands from us.
 

Godless-Kafir

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You don't have to be an athiest to support secularism. Tolerance is what secularism demands from us.
Tolerance means you dont accept some one and your just tolerating some one, like you tolerate pain you dont want it but you tolerate it! That makes no sense, I think in terms of Acceptance, for me all men are equal and i accept them regardless of race or ideology or what is in their bank account.

BUT if someone is sitting in the next room plotting to kill you, can you tolerate that? If you do then your blind, if you practice religion or secularism for that matter any ideology blindly then that is dangerous.
 

Yusuf

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[hl]I think I have allowed enough time for this thread to be pulled back on track. From here on, any more OT posts will be deleted.[/hl]
 

SATISH

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Well are you people so sure that it has not happened? Remember....Sukhoi did not escort the first Phalcon from Israel....MiG 29s did. A food for thought!
 

ace009

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Your completely derailing the topic. This is not about capitalism or communalism, if you want to discuss about capitalism start a new thread. This is about Israel and India conducting Joint-Ex that has not happened still because we are threatened by many factors, of which Iran is one. If your going to deny Iran never took offense to us moving closer to US or Israel against proof then there is nothing to discuss.

We should not have to be hostage to anyone which includes US or Iran or local Muslim population who may find it wrong to do such things. That is the point. Today moving closer to the US is beneficial to us then we should go ahead and do it that is only in terms of getting technology to help solve the poverty issue. To blindly say if we become close to US we will lose our Foreign policy independence is born out of British colonial era fear.

We dont need to put all our eggs in one basket be it with Iran,US,Israel,Russia or Europe. That is the only way to keep an independent FP.

Hey GK - thanks for the support. I agree - we are digressing from the India-Israel joint exercise discussions - even discussing Iran is not central to the issue, although relevant.
However, let me put some things right to our friend tprop988 - who I think is a leftist and thinks US is the source of all evil while Iran is just a victim of "US imperialism".
Here it goes ...
1. US foreign policy is NOT a nice one. However, it is neither evil. It is what suits their country needs - just like India's and Iran's should be. USA does NOT try to increase or keep on poverty. They actually DO try to help nations eradicate poverty. Unfortunately most of the poorer nations have weak/ corrupt governments and end up wasting what resources they receive from the US (Pakistan, Iraq being cases in point - both of whom received US largesse for long long time).
2. Iran is an ISLAMIC republic. It is NOT a secular country, unlike India. USA on the other hand is a secular country - so if you want to talk about real secularism, think about who should be India's ally. On the other hand, if your brand of secularism means pandering to the vote bank politics and leftist versions of "minority religions are OK" then please go live in one of the worst religious theocracies in the world. See how they treat a "Hindu" like you. Or come to the USA and see how they treat you. It is a question of basic human rights and dignity, which I think is WAY more important than your so-called "secularism".
3. Iran is also enormously rich - as the third largest oil producing nation, it has the capacity to produce an open, secular, technologically advanced society in the world. They have been at it for 50+ years now - result? One of the worst theocracies with barbaric laws who export terrorism to neighboring countries and is calling to obliterate Israel and USA just because they are Jewish/ pro-Jewish. AND YOU WANT TO COMPARE MY COUNTRY INDIA WITH IRAN? I THINK I SHOULD BE THE ONE F**KING OFFENDED.
4. India and Isarel has been good friends for a long time and should be even closer together. Reason? Both have Islamic fundamentalist countries opposed to them. Both have technical know-how that they can help each other with. Both have independant foreign policies in the Asian region. And both are vibrant secular democracies. As for Iran - Israel was the ONE country who really helped them during the 1980s Iran-Iraq war - know your history. In the next 10 years Iran turned around and called for Israeli obliteration - says something about being friends with Iran - does it not?
5. As for US government accusing Iran of buying/ trying to buy Nuclear Tech from Pakistan - I included a UK report. However, if that was NOT enough - I can find some more links for you - from India and Pakistan - if they are more conclusive to you ...
6. A Q Khan admitted to selling nuclear weapons to Iran - what more proof do you need dude?
Pakistan's A.Q. Khan Cites Official Support for Advancing Iran's Nuclear Program
 
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tprop988

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Hey GK - thanks for the support. I agree - we are digressing from the India-Israel joint exercise discussions - even discussing Iran is not central to the issue, although relevant.
However, let me put some things right to our friend tprop988 - who I think is a leftist and thinks US is the source of all evil while Iran is just a victim of "US imperialism".
Here it goes ...
1. US foreign policy is NOT a nice one. However, it is neither evil. It is what suits their country needs - just like India's and Iran's should be. USA does NOT try to increase or keep on poverty. They actually DO try to help nations eradicate poverty. Unfortunately most of the poorer nations have weak/ corrupt governments and end up wasting what resources they receive from the US (Pakistan, Iraq being cases in point - both of whom received US largesse for long long time).
2. Iran is an ISLAMIC republic. It is NOT a secular country, unlike India. USA on the other hand is a secular country - so if you want to talk about real secularism, think about who should be India's ally. On the other hand, if your brand of secularism means pandering to the vote bank politics and leftist versions of "minority religions are OK" then please go live in one of the worst religious theocracies in the world. See how they treat a "Hindu" like you. Or come to the USA and see how they treat you. It is a question of basic human rights and dignity, which I think is WAY more important than your so-called "secularism".
3. Iran is also enormously rich - as the third largest oil producing nation, it has the capacity to produce an open, secular, technologically advanced society in the world. They have been at it for 50+ years now - result? One of the worst theocracies with barbaric laws who export terrorism to neighboring countries and is calling to obliterate Israel and USA just because they are Jewish/ pro-Jewish. AND YOU WANT TO COMPARE MY COUNTRY INDIA WITH IRAN? I THINK I SHOULD BE THE ONE F**KING OFFENDED.
4. India and Isarel has been good friends for a long time and should be even closer together. Reason? Both have Islamic fundamentalist countries opposed to them. Both have technical know-how that they can help each other with. Both have independant foreign policies in the Asian region. And both are vibrant secular democracies. As for Iran - Israel was the ONE country who really helped them during the 1980s Iran-Iraq war - know your history. In the next 10 years Iran turned around and called for Israeli obliteration - says something about being friends with Iran - does it not?
5. As for US government accusing Iran of buying/ trying to buy Nuclear Tech from Pakistan - I included a UK report. However, if that was NOT enough - I can find some more links for you - from India and Pakistan - if they are more conclusive to you ...
6. A Q Khan admitted to selling nuclear weapons to Iran - what more proof do you need dude?
Pakistan's A.Q. Khan Cites Official Support for Advancing Iran's Nuclear Program
As I can quite correctly predict here, you are the "ALL HAIL USA" kind of person. So its pointless arguing with you. So I am going to ignore the rest of your post since this is off topic again. But one thing forces me to reply to your post -

Again, I am no leftist. But I am neither a "ALL HAIL USA" kind of chap like you. You are pointing out reasons why the US foriegn policy is so nice and suited for the Americans. Arent you concerned with our Nation or are you so high on the US illusion that you forgot you are an Indian. I am talking about how India needs to safeguard its foriegn policy against US influence and you are talking about how nice the US is and this and that. Or in that case, are you really a Indian. Seems like you stay in the US. So you are one of those breed who left our country long ago in order to work for them. That explains to me, why so much pro US talk.
Now again, I am not against Indo - Israeli ties. I maintain that India needs to conduct Joint Air Force Exercises with the Israellis. And if Iran or in that sense any other nation tries to inluence us against doing such a thing. We are a soveriegn nation and WE pick our friends, not someone else. Israel has been one of India's closest friends of late. Plus, they maintain some of the worlds best fighter pilots. Any joint exercises will definitely go a long way in helping our pilot training scenario. As any tricks learned by our aces in this joint exercises will reflect in our training. Moreover, we will get to know more of the F-16 Block 52s that the Pakistanis are acquiring of late. We maintain one of the world's best Air Superiority Fighters (viz the SU-30MKI) as well as other potent platforms like the Mig-29s. What we lack are world class pilot training structures like the Israelis, the Russians and the US. Any such exchanges will go a long way in improving this scenario.
 

ace009

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As I can quite correctly predict here, you are the "ALL HAIL USA" kind of person. So its pointless arguing with you. So I am going to ignore the rest of your post since this is off topic again. But one thing forces me to reply to your post -
"AND YOU WANT TO COMPARE MY COUNTRY INDIA WITH IRAN? I THINK I SHOULD BE THE ONE F**KING OFFENDED" - dude, ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED?? Just read my posts carefully. Where do you find me comparing or in that sense equating India with Iran. Stop fabricating baseless issues.
Again, I am no leftist. But I am neither a "ALL HAIL USA" kind of chap like you. You are pointing out reasons why the US foriegn policy is so nice and suited for the Americans. Arent you concerned with our Nation or are you so high on the US illusion that you forgot you are an Indian. I am talking about how India needs to safeguard its foriegn policy against US influence and you are talking about how nice the US is and this and that. Or in that case, are you really a Indian. Seems like you stay in the US. So you are one of those breed who left our country long ago in order to work for them. That explains to me, why so much pro US talk.
Now again, I am not against Indo - Israeli ties. I maintain that India needs to conduct Joint Air Force Exercises with the Israellis. And if Iran or in that sense any other nation tries to inluence us against doing such a thing, then FUCK THEM. We are a soveriegn nation and WE pick our friends, not someone else. Israel has been one of India's closest friends of late. Plus, they maintain some of the worlds best fighter pilots. Any joint exercises will definitely go a long way in helping our pilot training scenario. As any tricks learned by our aces in this joint exercises will reflect in our training. Moreover, we will get to know more of the F-16 Block 52s that the Pakistanis are acquiring of late. We maintain one of the world's best Air Superiority Fighters (viz the SU-30MKI) as well as other potent platforms like the Mig-29s. What we lack are world class pilot training structures like the Israelis, the Russians and the US. Any such exchanges will go a long way in improving this scenario.
Hey dude - go lick up your "Indian secular" identity if you want to criticize me for my life choices. You have no idea what I do, why I am in the USA and why I am here. So, shut the hell up from personal attacks which you started some time back. For that matter I am tempted to report you to the Mods.
As for your record, I never said the US foreign policy is good - I just said it is more effective than India's - primarily because the USA cares LESS about what other countries feel about them when it is their well-being in question. By that same logic, India should turn a blind eye to ANY Iranian objection to hold joint exercises with Israel. India should develop it's own foreign policy based upon what is good for India in particular and a secular democratic alliance in general. Those two are neither exclusive nor is the second more important than the first. I.e. India's interests come first, then it's allies and partners. As for developing alliance and partnerships, again if the choice is between countries with dubious repute vs countries with more integrity, I would say go with countries with more integrity - but definitely strategic importance may be different. Strategically both Iran and Israel are important to India - but one cannot be at the expense of the other.
As for your comments - here is what you said ... "Iran is surrounded by hostile neighbours along with an imminent US invasion on their heads. Isnt India doing the same thing to counter the Chinese threat? Its an open secret that India's nuclear programme was China specific. So you think that Iran doesnt have the right to defend themselves in the event of any hostilities. Tell me why is India doing this thing with someone who has long supported us in the Kashmir issue and all international issues."
In my opinion, that is enough of a comparison between India and Iran. Just because India has developed nuclear weapons, Iran can is not an argument. That is an argument given by A Q Khan. Iran's need for nuclear weapons is not the issue - the issue is what they might do with it being the irrational Mullahcracy they are.
You have called me non-secular, anti-muslim, a "ALL-HAIL USA" chap, questioned my patriotism and many more - I can give less damn about all that. But, here is the real question - WHY did you jump in to support Iran, when we were discussing why India should NOT care about what Iran says as far as Iran-Israel relations go? What is Iran to you? Why should we NOT criticize it when you are criticizing the USA, who has been the biggest job-creator, foreign-exchange provider and one of the biggest trading partners of India? Why are YOU so against the USA that you are for Iran? Did they deny you a visa to enter USA? :D
 
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ace009

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[hl]I think I have allowed enough time for this thread to be pulled back on track. From here on, any more OT posts will be deleted.[/hl]
Yusuf, Please check out my posts and tell me if I have violated the rules of DFI or the rules of decency in this thread - also, I have been called names for criticizing Iran, including being called anti-Islamic - from my posts, do you get that view? Please let me know.
 

ace009

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I did not take any names mate.
I did not mean you ... :D

I meant tprop988 - and i just wanted to know your opinion about me being "anti-secular" and "anti-islmaic" or whatever he has been calling me. Do I post like that?
 

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