India helping Iran's Air Force

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by rock45, Apr 7, 2009.

  1. rock45

    rock45 Founding Member/ RIP our friend

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    I came across this Blog and it stated that India helped Iran in some form to support it's Mig-29s. I'm looking for information on this claim and if true what level or support or help was provided. I assume basic parts light overhauls things of that nature.

    Thanks in advance if anybody can help.

    The Blog
    http://uskowioniran.blogspot.com/2008/05/iriaf-mig-29-fulcrum-in-action.html
     
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  3. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    it's true

    Major new Iran-India deals along
    these lines have not materialized to date, but Iran is said to still seek Indian advice in
    operating Iran’s missile boats, refitting of Iran’s T-72 tanks and armored personnel
    carriers, and upgrades for its MiG-29 fighters
    .12 Under the Declaration, the two have
    some joint naval exercises, most recently in March 2006. The first joint exercises were
    in March 2003. The recent exchange prompted some congressional criticism, but both
    the Bush Administration and Indian officials insist the exchange emphasized mutual
    sports and entertainment activities rather than military technique.

    http://italy.usembassy.gov/pdf/other/RS22486.pdf
     
  4. pyromaniac

    pyromaniac Founding Member

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    I know that India is helping Iran build a port that will in one form or another serve to counter Pakistans/China's GWADAR. I also know that India does some low level training such as joint exercises but I don't think we provide them stuff like spare parts. I think the only thing India would have done was to mediate a conversation between Iran and Russia.
     
  5. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    we provided more than parts we might have provided upgrades? and why should USA be involved in a russian plane? We haven't said anything to USA when Pakistan modified f-16's to deliver nukes and USA is still gifting more. We have to look after our interests first USA is here today gone tommorow as far as India relations .just look at difference between obama and bush.
     
  6. pyromaniac

    pyromaniac Founding Member

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    US Lawmakers Call on India to Halt Military Cooperation with Iran

    By Gary Thomas
    Washington
    20 April 2007

    A bipartisan group of U.S. senators has asked India to cease its growing military cooperation with Iran. New Delhi and Tehran recently stepped up military-to-military cooperation. As VOA correspondent Gary Thomas reports, such efforts could spell trouble for the pending nuclear deal between the United States and India.

    In a letter addressed to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, eight senators called on India to suspend its strategic partnership with Iran until Tehran halts its alleged pursuit of nuclear weapons and its support for terrorism.

    The letter, signed by four Democratic and four Republican senators, makes no specific mention of the U.S.-India nuclear deal pending in Congress. But the senators say such a public declaration from India would, as the letter puts it, "remove a potentially serious barrier to future cooperation" between the United States and India.

    Analysts say the "future cooperation" is a clear reference to the civilian nuclear deal, agreed in principle in 2005 and now under detailed negotiation between New Delhi and Washington. The final deal must be approved by Congress.

    The senators' letter comes just before a visit to Washington by Indian Foreign Secretary Shiv Shanker Menon to discuss the U.S.-Indian nuclear negotiations. Sources say other similar letters are circulating among members of the House of Representatives.

    Robert Einhorn, a non-proliferation expert at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, says one rationale the Bush Administration has given for the deal is that it would lead the U.S. and India to agree on key strategic issues. But the Indo-Iranian military cooperation, he says, has undercut that argument.

    "It's become clear over the last year or two that the U.S. and India have very different attitudes towards dealing with the current regime in Iran," he said. "And I think it's been a source of some disappointment in Washington, and especially on Capitol Hill, that India has maintained such an independent position toward Iran."

    India and Iran negotiated a military cooperation agreement in 2003 in what was dubbed the New Delhi Agreement. Henry Sokolski, executive director of the Non-Proliferation Policy Education Center, says the establishment last month of a joint Indo-Iranian military working group set off alarm bells in Washington.

    "We had seen some implementation of the New Delhi declaration, and downplayed it," he recalled. "But then it turns out they put together a military working group last month. This news did not go down well with members of the U.S. Congress."

    Congressional displeasure over the Indo-Iranian nuclear tie just adds to the hurdles to sealing the U.S.-Indian civilian nuclear deal. Negotiations on the nuclear pact have already stumbled on some key points that analysts say could jeopardize the deal. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said Friday that there is frustration in Washington over the slow progress of the negotiations.

    "The Indian government has raised a series of issues in these negotiations concerning our laws and suggesting things that would require us to change our laws," he said. "And we just - we're not going to do that, we can't do that."

    Robert Einhorn says Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is getting both political and bureaucratic pressure to try to wring more concessions from the American side.

    "Leading the criticism, ironically, has been the nuclear establishment in India," he noted. "They have been quite greedy in this negotiation. They have made some demands that the Bush Administration simply considers to be simply unreasonable. But they [the Indians] seem to have dug themselves in. And so far, they have received the support of the Indian government."

    State Department spokesman McCormack said the issue of Iranian-Indian cooperation has not arisen in the U.S.-Indian negotiations. He said Washington would not dictate New Delhi's relationship with Tehran, but added that the U.S. has, as he put it, counseled India on the nature and behavior of the Iranian government.
     
  7. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    I don't know what happened with this deal maybe it did not materialize after Bush Nuclear deal but here is something else India helped Iran with in 1993

    Iran reportedly turned to India in 1993 to help develop batteries for the three
    Kilo-class submarines Iran had bought from Russia. The submarine batteries provided
    by the Russians were not appropriate for the warm waters of the Persian Gulf, and India
    had substantial experience operating Kilos in warm water
     
  8. pyromaniac

    pyromaniac Founding Member

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    I didn't know that either..thanks for the info LF.
    India should try its best to have good relations with Iran..I mean after all they are our closest "ally", unless you count Afghanistan
     
  9. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    I agree Pyro we have enough big and small neighbors as enemies.
     
  10. rock45

    rock45 Founding Member/ RIP our friend

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    Thanks pyromaniac and others
    Business is business but I must admit I'm a little disappointed being an American, Iran well I don't need to say it. I'm sure my government involvement in Pakistan is disappointing to most Indians, so I shouldn't throw rocks in glass houses. I call the President to tell him end all support to Pakistan but he doesn't take my calls. http://defenceforum.in/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

    I can only assume what India sells Iran isn't too threatening or the P-8, C-130, etc, deal wouldn't have gone through.

    My
     
  11. pyromaniac

    pyromaniac Founding Member

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    Rock , LF and I feel the same way. In fact, we were just talking about this yesterday. Even though George Bush might have ruined America, he helped out India a lot. I dont know what Obama is thinking...3 billion dollars in military aid..wtf???
    First of all, America doesn't have 3 billion lying around and even if we did, why are we giving it to a country that has repeatably sponsored terrorism and is the terror capital of the world?? Wouldn't we just be better off helping them out economically..I mean we could invest in their infrastructure and over the long run it would pay off. Then again, it is America's policy to shoot itself in the foot...we will see how this latest debacle turns out.

    BTW, US is okay with us dealing with Iran now because in the UN security council we voted against Iran's nuclear program. Iran was surprised but that kept the US happy.
     
  12. SATISH

    SATISH DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    Well we would like to have a peace deal struck between Iran and the US. This would nearly isolate Pakistan from all the immediate neigbourhood. First we must make Iran trust us then The US to recogonize Iran. This will open up new and safer supply routes to NATO troops operating in Afghanistan thus bringing down the Pakistani "say" and Crediblity in Afghan issue.
     
  13. kuku

    kuku Respected Member

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    Oh freaking grow up. :blum3:

    The relations between USA and India are just starting to get better, these weapon systems you talk of (P-8A, C-130 etc. etc.) are nothing important, India for its part is testing the relations (as is USA), the relations will become stronger over the next decade, right now India and USA are not allies.

    Meanwhile Iran can not be ignored just because they went from one extremist government (The Shah) to another extremist government (the current mess).

    Good relations with Iran irrespective of the form of government they have are important for India for various reasons and we are not going to give them up completely for the pleasure of USA interests unless relations with USA offer us something better in return.

    As far as the blog goes, some of our own MiG-29s are in Russia for the new upgrade, may be some local parts manufactured in India by HAL are being supplied to Iran, other than that mutual exchange of Naval personnel might be there, sharing intelligence, industrial cooperation (especially in oil and gas sector), hell even mutual cooperation in agriculture and education.

    We would have been cooperating in space and nuclear technology with them, but then the western alliance will ban us and stop the transfer of a lot of technology into our nation (as it did after the first nuclear tests in the 70s till about really recently). May be if USA topples the current mess in Iran, we will do this.

    We had similar problems W.R.T our relations with Iraq, now that Saddam is gone and USA is in-charge we can start to build them again.
     
  14. pyromaniac

    pyromaniac Founding Member

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    The only problem with that though is China is a big time regional player and soon to be international player(within the next 20 years) and being Pakistan's ally they will try to help out Pakistan to counter India. Also,the fact is that Iran might not be totally receptive to the Idea of being a close ally of India because they are sitting on quite a large stockpile of oil and China is a very attractive market for that.
     
  15. SATISH

    SATISH DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    Bring US and Iran together...If we are able to do that we can easily start playing a lot of politics in this region.
     
  16. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    That is correct. The port is called Chabahar and is in the Iranian province of Sistan-Baluchestan. It will act as a strategic enclave in the Oman sea (Iran's sole port with direct access to the ocean infact, the others having to pass through the Strait of Hormuz) and a counterweight to the Gwadar port, alongwith providing a strategically important conduit to the oil-rich Central Asian states. In the same vein, India and Iran have cooperated in the massive infrastructural project the 'North-South Transport Corridor', permitting facile transport of goods from India's ports to the Iranian port of Bandar Abbas, and in the near future, to Chabahar. Then there is also the Zaranj-Delaram highway and the rail route connecting Chabahar and Zaranj in Afghanistan. India also imports as much as 80% of its crude oil from Iran via supertankers docking at Gujarat (an increase from the mere 7.5% in 2005), with substantial diesel exports to the latter, and is slated to become Iran's single largest oil importer in this fiscal year. Of even more interest is the fact that Iran's trade with India crossed US$13 billion in 2007, an 80% increase in trade volume within the year. There was also a lead report in the February 11, 2003 issue of the AsiaTimes, subsequently reproduced elsewhere, that claimed India had surreptitiously negotiated access to Iran's military bases in the event of war with Pakistan under the New Delhi Declaration. But India's ties with Iran transcend the mere economic and the strategic. They encompass the administrative and the politico-ideological as well: from mulling ways to combat the rise of Talibanism in Pakistan to mitigating Deobandi and Wahabbi political power and influence in Afghanistan and beyond. There also exists a joint working group on terrorism (est. 2003) and one to address narcotics and arms-trafficking via Pakistan and Afghanistan.


    In the defence sphere, in addition to the Indian development of warm-water batteries for Iran's 6 Kilo-class submarines as mentioned by LethalForce earlier, there have also been (purposively) unconfirmed reports of India selling the Konkurs anit-tank missile to Iran. In addition, India's help has been sought in the refitting and maintenance of Iran's T-72's, Houdong (Type 021/ upgraded OSA-I class) fast-attack missile boats, and Boragh (BMP-2 variant) Infantry Fighting Vehicles, as well as assistance in upgrading Iran's Mig-29 fighters. There have also been similarly unconfirmed reports evincing plausible deniability that Iran has approached India to provide combat training to its missile boat crews, ship and submarine simulators, and midlife and service upgrades for its fighters, submarines and warships in Indian dockyards. Joint naval exercises have been held in the Arabian sea between the two countries in March 2003 and March 2006. And the Indian consulates in Zahedan and Bandar Abbas also operate as intelligence and reconnaissance centres (with perfect acquiescence by Tehran) for naval movements in the Persian Gulf and the Strait of Hormuz.


    While the vote at the IAEA may have momentarily strained ties with Iran, New Delhi has previously- and subsequently- demonstrated the ability to finely balance its ties with Iran without expense to its ties with the United States and the international community. And even then, India secured a commitment to grant the IAEA greater time for negotiations with Iran than the Europeans were initially want to give. India's putative role in bringing Iran out of it's constricting isolation and effecting it's engagement with the world community can easily be very constructive. But it is up to the US to realize that it cannot play a zero-sum game in its relations with India and Iran....because India certainly ain't.
     
  17. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    rock45-I can only assume what India sells Iran isn't too threatening

    at one time Iran was first in line to buy Brahmos.
     
  18. SATISH

    SATISH DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    Werent they more intrested in Sunburn and Kitchen. They also wanted Onyx.
     
  19. rock45

    rock45 Founding Member/ RIP our friend

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    What did I say so bad that I have to freaking grow up? Does it take a brain surgeon to figure out anything Iran isn't US-friendly? Thought I was pretty neutral with my comments what your problem?
     
  20. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    sometimes i think Bush administration should have kept diplomatic channels open with Iran, with the help from Russia and India ,USA could have had other alternatives for supply routes to afghanistan and decreased their dependance on pakistan and also addressed issues regarding Iran-Israel etc...
     
  21. rock45

    rock45 Founding Member/ RIP our friend

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    There's so much more involved with Iran and the terror the support than the supply routes into Afghanistan. Afghanistan is an afterthought almost compared to all the terror and death exported over the years through Syria and other locations that come directly from Iran.

    Currently most of the US soldiers and other killed in Iraq are from weapons/IDE/support etc comes from Iran even what passes through Syria, is shipped or flown to Syria. Iran is behind it and I'm sure some Saudi back door money as well.

    LF Do you still have buddy's serving? Well just like US money feeds Pakistan, Iran feeds the people killing US Forces and other forces as well.
     

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